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Can we agree CW Villains> MCU Villains: Spoilers
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MHWilliams
Member
Two hours to work with, in addition to the time spent on the hero.
13 hours to work with, in addition to the time spent on the hero.
One of those will likely work out better.
And no, most of the other movie villains outside of Ledger's Joker aren't great.
That would be fine if we didn't have countless examples of amazing movie villains. This is a MCU issue.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Rudd has more character development than any of them. Cap* and Iron Man don't have character development, they have quips.
* Actually, he does in Civil War, I just hate it.
Also, to reel this back a bit-- character development is not what's holding back MCU villains. It would help (Loki's a great example) but the issue is that they are mostly bland.
Mads Mikkenlson has zero development in Doctor Strange but he has great presence and he's fun to watch onscreen. Ronan and Malekith are on the other end of the spectrum, doing basically nothing but dragging their movies down when they appear. Character development is not the thing that makes the difference.
Kilgrave (and Fisk) were more compelling villains in the same amount of screen time as any MCU villain was. That they got more after that was just icing.
I'm keeping this all Marvel since I know people get fanboy boners over company logos at the start of their entertainment. You can make the same point for characters on the CW/WB/Fox sides of things.
old manatee
Banned
People keep trotting this chestnut out like there aren't hundreds of films with amazing villains.
Yep. It has become the most lazy argument ever
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Loki
Magneto
William Striker
And outside of comics movies, it's not like there aren't amazing movie villains after a single film. Darth Vader became world-class before Empire. Nurse Rachet doesn't need a series of franchise to be one of the most iconic villains in film. Old Man Potter didn't need character development, nor did the Wicked Witch.
You don't need a movie series to make a great villain.
EDIT: beaten by the Exploder.
Primethius
Banned
Reverse Flash in S1 of Flash was better than any Marvel villain, so yes, I agree.
Huh thats odd your pitting DC TV vs Marvel Movies?
Ok then, Marvel Non-CU Villans better than CW Villans
Both Magnetos from the X- Men Movies
Ajax - Deadpool
Doc Ock - Spiderman 2
William Stryker - X-Men 2
Green Goblin (Willem Defoe) - Spiderman
Sebastian Shaw - X-Men First Class
Ok then, Marvel Non-CU Villans better than CW Villans
Both Magnetos from the X- Men Movies
Ajax - Deadpool
Doc Ock - Spiderman 2
William Stryker - X-Men 2
Green Goblin (Willem Defoe) - Spiderman
Sebastian Shaw - X-Men First Class
Then do a dc movie villains vs marvel movie villains thread. As it is, time does wonders for character development that all movies simply don't have.
Most of those villains are terrible.
Yeah, I mean, even within superhero movies - Magneto (McKellan AND Fassbender), Doc Ock, Syndrome, Hackman's Lex Luthor, Dafoe's Green Goblin. Like, those characters range from legitimately well-written and acted to simply memorable and entertaining. Even within the MCU, you have Loki. And that's ignoring a million Batman villains.
It's not some sort of an insurmountable challenge to write a well-developed bad guy into a 2 hour film. The MCU just chooses not to. It seems like it's not even on their radar.
It's not some sort of an insurmountable challenge to write a well-developed bad guy into a 2 hour film. The MCU just chooses not to. It seems like it's not even on their radar.
Even if we talk CW then Vandal Savage from Flash/Arrow crossover was a much cooler villain than Vandal Savage from Legends of Tomorrow.
The Artisan
Member
OP, this is the internet.
I don't think you will ever get 100% of people to ever agree on everything.
I don't think you will ever get 100% of people to ever agree on everything.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
To the bolded.... really?
The fact that he's lame is part of the joke, no?
I should have had Doc Ock and Gobby on my list above, solid choices. Both those movies do service to Peter's character *and* have great villains, so there goes the "movie is focused on the hero" angle as well.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
A lot of times, less is more.
Ajax, *maybe* Shaw. The others are better than almost every MCU villain.
Flippy flippy magneto is a terrible character played by a good actor. That shit was old in first class and they kept pushing it. Shaw was a
Non character along with gonna group of mutants. They were there to set up magneto going dark Willem Defoe was great as Norman though. The only redeeming thing about that movie
MHWilliams
Member
Magneto, sure. Holocaust survivor trying to help his people through flawed means is an amazingly strong hook to hang your hat on.
Loki? He's given equal origin time with Thor, since we're starting in the middle of their lives in Asgard. Also, another very strong hook.
Stryker? In no way shape or form.
The composition of the villain is far more important than the villain itself. Go into the Iron Man comics. Find a villain with a very strong hook. Not one that's been around for a long-time, a strong, consistent hook. Crimson Dynamo? Madame Masque? Even Mandarin survives from being ear-marked as the defacto Iron Man villain, nto because he's a particularly strong antagonist. (Tony's worst enemy is always himself.)
Ant-Man? Captain America's is the Red Skull, who is for all intents and purposes a Hitler stand-in. Guardians of the Galaxy is maybe Magus?
Kilgrave works in Jessica Jones because his hook is strong and he's intimately tied to Jessica's past.
Kingpin is one of the singular villains that down purely to the writing and acting of the character. D'Onofrio's Fisk is simply amazing. Ledger's Joker is the other. Most of other villains throw around are okay, to bad.
Hackman's Luthor? Lord no. The best Luthors remain Lex and Lionel Luthor on Smallville. (Which is, again, a TV show.) With a show you have for the build-up. You can overcome a weak hook or okay actor purely with characterization and the right scenes. Matt Lescher isn't an amazing actor, but his Thawne has time to breathe and grow.
MHWilliams
Member
If you believe that, then we're not even in the same reality for this discussion.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Which MCU villains are better?
The Silver
Member
Not a very high bar to clear, now the TV shows are a better fight.
Reverse Flash, Prometheus, Deathstroke, Merlyn vs Kingpin, Purple Man, Cottonmouth, Ward, AIDA, maybe Punisher
I don't know man I guess Marvel​ has the edge.
Reverse Flash, Prometheus, Deathstroke, Merlyn vs Kingpin, Purple Man, Cottonmouth, Ward, AIDA, maybe Punisher
I don't know man I guess Marvel​ has the edge.
Boi bye
No one has yet to give there reasons for saying why Fisk is so great 3 pages in.
Octavianus
Banned
No I can't.
Loki is. Helps he gets a lot more development time
Lol no.
Reptars Revenge
Member
Thawne became a joke. Captain Cold was better as a hero. Malcolm is a glorified lackey and punching bag.
batman2million
Member
The only respectable super hero TV show CW ever had was Smallville and that was the first couple of seasons.
All the rest of the shows are poor written, poorly directed, terribly acted, logic deprived, emotionally driven teenage melodrama with little to no context or plot.
I'm not saying the Marvel movies are great, but you have 13 hours (episodes) vs 2 hours to pitch your characters and Marvel has done a superior job.
Marvel has managed to get Guardians of the Galaxy to be a billion dollar movie. I was so sure it was gonna fail b/c who the fuck knows the GoG, but lo and behold.
In terms of villains, Batman has some of the strongest rogue gallery in all of comics but that's all I speak of DC. For CW, the only one I like was Ra Al Gul from Arrow. Other than that, they've seemed like dollar store rip offs from the originals.
All the rest of the shows are poor written, poorly directed, terribly acted, logic deprived, emotionally driven teenage melodrama with little to no context or plot.
I'm not saying the Marvel movies are great, but you have 13 hours (episodes) vs 2 hours to pitch your characters and Marvel has done a superior job.
Marvel has managed to get Guardians of the Galaxy to be a billion dollar movie. I was so sure it was gonna fail b/c who the fuck knows the GoG, but lo and behold.
In terms of villains, Batman has some of the strongest rogue gallery in all of comics but that's all I speak of DC. For CW, the only one I like was Ra Al Gul from Arrow. Other than that, they've seemed like dollar store rip offs from the originals.
Compared to dc villains like merlyn and thawne?
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
He's good, but he's also the MCU exception to the rule.
Loki is not better than Thawne. Hell Thawne is probably the better trickster as well
fallengorn
Bitches love smiley faces
If we're comparing just the shows... I'd still give the edge to MCU. Especially, the Netflix shows barring Iron Fist, they each have a strong villain.
Out of all the CW villains, I feel like Eobard and Deathstroke were the most consistently strong villains. Merlyn was great until season 3. Haven't watched any of season 5 Arrow, so can't speak to Prometheus. I like Captain Cold, but he's spent more time as an anti-hero than villain.
Out of all the CW villains, I feel like Eobard and Deathstroke were the most consistently strong villains. Merlyn was great until season 3. Haven't watched any of season 5 Arrow, so can't speak to Prometheus. I like Captain Cold, but he's spent more time as an anti-hero than villain.
MHWilliams
Member
Well I wasn't part of the discussion until now, so slow your roll, son.
Acting and writing.
Vincent D'Onofrio is amazingly compelling as a villain. Matt Murdock wants to preserve Hell Kitchen as he remembers it and keep the locals where he feels they belong. Wilson Fisk wants to revitalize the area, raising his home to a promience he feels the region deserves. Both men want what they believe is the best for Hell's Kitchen and in the wash, Fisk's ultimate end goal might actually be better for the neighborhood.
Fisk is a thug who wants to a businessman, but for whom the weapons of criminality work so well. A violent man, prone to fits of rage, due in part to the past rage of his father. Once again, parallels. The death of both fathers essentially created Fisk and Daredevil, but Fisk was the instrument of his father's death. It was a necessary act of self-defense, but it was still murder. His road to what he sees as herodom was tainted from the beginning.
Fisk is also horribly sympathetic. You can actually see that not only does he believe this is the best for Hell's Kitchen and everyone in it, but he is also a man that loves deeply. He craves it. Vanessa, his mother, even Wesley. The best villains are the ones who you can see yourself in their shoes.
Wilson Fisk is an amazing villain. He has complexity and nuance. He has joy, rage, love, and real menace.
I like Thawne, but up until the last half of Legends, he just chewed scenery. The real magic was in the slow reveal of Wells before that.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
As we have been branching out, I feel I have to give a shout out to this guy:
CopperPuppy
Member
Nah.
I love the Flash series, but no.
MHWilliams
Member
Nah.
Ward is another one where the build-up makes the character. He's a fun villain, but the real meat of the character is in the juxtaposition of pre-reveal and post-reveal Ward. You need the road to the reveal (and the relationships built during that time) to make the character what he is and that's something that's far easier to do on TV. His reactions to the team's vendetta against him is half the fun of Ward.
On TV, you have time and space to make an okay villain great.
Truth
I can't argue with this one at all.
All who disagree don't watch FX.
Truth
God that scene was terrifying.
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What was I thinking, Marvel still easily wins.
Haven't seen Captain America Winter Soldier eh
Just_myles
Member
Can't compare tv to movie villains. Of course tv villains will be more fleshed out. Nice try OP.
To answer to the extent of comparing tv to tv, I will say no. Reason being is because the CW writers keep making them parodies of themselves. Reverse Flash was great up until season 2 of legends of tomorrow. Horrible. Just horrible. Same with Merlyn, he was fantastic in season 1 and 2 of Arrow. Going forward with the whole league bit and the chopping off of his hand... just just horrible. They started out great but, became jokes.
You see how they're bringing back Slade. You see that? You know why they're doing that?
I am also in agreement that shadow king is top tier and how it should be done. Co-signing on Fisk as well, perfection.
Just so you know that I am not leaving out Marvel Agents, of shield has been void a good villain for the entire series run. None of them feel compelling or threatening for that matter. Maybe Ghost Rider I would consider a "villain". Show is just bad imo.
To answer to the extent of comparing tv to tv, I will say no. Reason being is because the CW writers keep making them parodies of themselves. Reverse Flash was great up until season 2 of legends of tomorrow. Horrible. Just horrible. Same with Merlyn, he was fantastic in season 1 and 2 of Arrow. Going forward with the whole league bit and the chopping off of his hand... just just horrible. They started out great but, became jokes.
You see how they're bringing back Slade. You see that? You know why they're doing that?
I am also in agreement that shadow king is top tier and how it should be done. Co-signing on Fisk as well, perfection.
Just so you know that I am not leaving out Marvel Agents, of shield has been void a good villain for the entire series run. None of them feel compelling or threatening for that matter. Maybe Ghost Rider I would consider a "villain". Show is just bad imo.
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