TaroYamada
Member
Rockstar gave it a shot with GTA Chinatown Wars, IIRC they were disappointed in the sales figures. Their expectations weren't unreasonable either, I believe they wanted it to do just as well as Vice City Stories on PSP.
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Deep Silver (Saints Row/Metro/Dead Island): No Wii U games from us
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
Rockstar gave it a shot with GTA Chinatown Wars, IIRC they were disappointed in the sales figures. Their expectations weren't unreasonable either, I believe they wanted it to do just as well as Vice City Stories on PSP.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Saints Row is a damn shame. Nintendo can't even get games that are like GTA, it's cursed! Dead Island would have been good to have, but it's no great loss in the grand scheme of things.
superchunk
Member
I think this is more of a "we don't put games on a console until it proves it has an install base". So, WiiU will come in 2014. Its already rebounding and selling more than double what it did in February and growing.
Why?As a Wii U owner I will not buy any game from Deep Silver on my PS4
how do you like dem apples?
Then they ported the game to the PSP and it sold like shit as well.
A slightly better example would be Bully, although that was a port of an old game. I'm not sure if it's even worth it to mention Manhunt 2.
Edit
I don't think so. PS4 has zero install base right now. They won't support Wii U even if it starts selling well, because their marketing department will ask an old witch how much of a Wii U version would they sell and the number will be too low.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
I'd say their expectations were unreasonable if they thought a top down spin off game was going to sell as good as an actual full fledged 3D companion title.
That's like complaining Dead Space extraction didn't sell what Dead Space did, or Halo Wars not selling what Halo does.
If they'd released a GTA Collection on the Wii and that had bombed, that would be a different story.
I see, sorry to hear that.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Well yea some would but I believe Wii U owners would more willing to buy a game that is made with Wii U in mind as with the other 2 next gen consoles too. Most games this gen were on pc as long as ps360 as well. All of the recent games I think were also on PC except MGR. Deadspace 3, Tomb Raider, Crysis, Bioshock
Personally, the games are uninteresting or just bad.
mentalfloss
Banned
Realistically, how many titles will they release for next gen?
-Pyromaniac-
Member
that's the real ether here. And that's a game that like you mentioned had everything going for it. Not sure if you or anyone agrees with this but IMO, even if the wiiU makes solid gains sales wise, I still expect most software to have disappointing sales. I just don't think there is a diverse audience being fostered there.
Yeah, I was thinking games that were maybe a few years old. Some would even make great sense, like the first Bayonetta.
Edit:
What you believe is kind of irrelevant, though. Support your beliefs with some research if you can. Companies do that. Nintendo does that all the time. And it's their job to convince third parties, using that research, to support the console.
That's cool but that didn't seem to be his reasoning.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Bayonetta would be great but if I bought it would be just to have the Wii U version. Bayonetta also makes sense as its sequel is coming to Wii U.
shinra-bansho
Member
Nintendo gave publishers a system with comparable performance to those older consoles, they billed it in developer meetings as being easy to port to from the 360, iirc. It's not silly, it's perfectly reasonable given that premise, to be getting the few "last gen" games it does get. And when these publishers stop making last gen games, it won't surprise when they stop making Wii U games.
If I were a publisher right now, with the industry where it is, I'd be wondering just why I *want* to stop making 'last gen' games. Given the increased costs and huge unknowns of the install base up ahead, it does strike me that the smartest choice would be to still pitch a game at a 360 level of fidelity and port it to everything in sight - including Durango and PS4. Work to the assets you can just about afford to master, rather than spending significantly more to access a smaller userbase.
But then, I'm no businessman.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I don't understand what you're saying...my research is that big 3rd party company games are selling like garbage. If a game like COD can't even muster up anything sub-decent, you know you have an audience problem. Obviously nintendo doesn't have any research to show anyone because they aren't getting squat without paying for it.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
I agree.
Though it also sucks how it's always the "Nintendo audience" and "Nintendo" the ones to receive the blame when it comes to games not selling on Nintendo platforms. What about the PC/PS3/Xbox audience that buys and plays Resident Evil, Left for Dead, and other zombie games; but weren't interested into buying Zombi U and/or the Wii U to play it. Or the ones that still to this day port beg here and there at how "easily" they could adapt the game to other platforms. Why only the Nintendo audience had to be interested and buy the game?
Heck, maybe we shoud start blaming the "PlayStation audience" for not buying Jak and Daxter as much as GTAIII back during teh PS2, which not only resulted in the changes for Jak II and Jak 3; but to even Naughty Dg consider a "darker/gritty approach" for a PS3 game? Or maybe the Xbox audience is also at fault for not buying Kameo, Conker and Banjo; but surely bought millions of Rare's Kinect Sports?
I mean, Zombi U is always mentioned around similar conversations as if been a good game, with many redeeming qualities and a launch title should've translated into sales..by default. But why wasn't Zombi U advertised during the likes of The Walking Dead which was just debuting a new season back then? Why the promotion mostly centered around gaming websites, that turned out to review the game as "well, it could've been better".
Even Telltale's The Walking Dead received more promotion, mentions and was shown around more leading to the "game of the year awards"; so is not like been a zombie game could've been a reason.
Basically, Zombi U was been advertsied to an "audience" that already knew about it, an audience that tends to buy games when it hit bins, "bomba prices", etc. Not ones not willing to spend $300+ on the game and a brand new console.
Is like when PlayStation and Xbox fans discuss at which targets more to hardcore gamers and not the "Call of Duty crowd" when in reality, the list of the respective best selling games are basically the same: Call of Duty, Madden, Fifa and a few first party games.
In the end, Deep Silver is the publisher. The respective developers of Saints Row, Metro and Dead Island may have mentioned interest in making Wii U games; but in the end it will depend more on the publisher rather than the developer. Look at EA. Criterion may love the Wii U and the head of Criterion may've said that more games from them should come to Wii U; but that doesn't mean that EA cares or will even give them more resources and money to make it. They already admitted that Most Wanted U they have few people and a short time to make it.
In general, I don't mind. In the big picture, of course I'd love more support and more games on it, but I guess I'm one of the weird ones that sees each gaming console as different, therefore expect different levels of support and approaches to it. Is like if I complained that my Android doesn't get the same games/apps as the iPhone; when I was the one that chose to buy an Android.
But I have a Luigi avatar, so..I guess my opinion is "lolz".
Damn. The numbers for Black Ops2, AC etc can't be pretty. I hope Lego does well. It looked like a very solid and fun game
Wasn't the Black Ops2 on wiiu a well done port too? With additional features to boot. Wonder how Activision think of the sales
-Pyromaniac-
Member
The worst part is, how do you even solve an audience problem? That's complicated and takes years. Their best bet is to spend the rest of this generation somehow trying to figure that out (new marketing/foster audiences for certain titles by making your own/etc...) and then hope that the generation after the wiiU they'll be in a much better place than this one from the get-go. Obviously assuming they A) do that and B) don't make any of the same mistakes next generation.
That's a shame. While it rings hollow since I haven't bought a system from them in a while, I've come to appreciate how Nintendo's consistently high output (Other M withstanding), care with which they've handled their brands and the ability to continue making family friendly games while other companies make M rated games/ resort grittiness to target 12 year olds/expanded audiences.
Based on what?
flatearthpandas
Member
Or, you know, maybe a lot of Wii U owners already own all the late-to-the-party ports that the third parties have offered so far and haven't been picking up games because four months after launch you can still count the number of worthwhile original games released on one hand... but no, you're probably right.
No you're not
Ninja Scooter
Member
You diversify and try and find the audiences so that 3rd parties will follow. It'll be interesting to see what Retro is actually working on. You have a supremely talented team (if people don't keep leaving) who by all accounts is capable of delivering a new, fresh IP that could hit some of the notes Nintendo usually doesn't in terms of themes and audiences. If it turns out they are being once again forced to churn out a new StarFox or Mario Kart for Wii U, it will be apparent that Nintendo are either just stupid, or really don't give a shit and all this talk every gen about them "winning back core gamers and third parties" is just lip service.
Third parties are following Nintendo's lead. We are almost 6 months into the system's life and Nintendo's support has been just as shitty as the third party offerings.
HE KNOWS THINGS
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Its pretty damn silly when they build a game with no Wii U version in mind. Most of the games have been in development for awhile before Wii U even launched.Resulting in making just quick ports like asscreed 3 or mass effect which couldve benefitted from the Wii U hardware to make a better peforming game. Games like asscreed 4 or watch_dogs should be better performance wise than ps3/360 titles of the same games. Even unwanted game like deus ex thats like a year old has already got numerous improvements compared to the other versions. Id rather have a dev go that direction then quick port of 360 just because. That is silly.
And I dont know if they will stop making Wii U games seems too broad to say that. But you talk in such certainty about things in the future its impossible to agrue that since you always will be right since you know these things somehow.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
First step is realizing you have an "audience problem" - from Nintendos perspective, this was never an issue to them. They have a profitable, very loyal consumer base. They've been very successful for generations cultivating and leveraging this base. No one can claim they have this big of a pool to dip into, their brand has incredible recognition and a foundation in Disney-age market. The only people who think the "audience is a problem" - is, well, us. The older, core gaming audience.
The bigger issue though, that's changed things this generation, is that technology had eroded the profitability of this audience. Kids have new shiney toys their parents also buy... A generation of kids coming to gaming first thru games like angry birds, because their parents want iPads. Tired argument? Think about it, Nintendo for the first time is NOT ushering in a new generation of gaming audience with their own mascots. Exposure here is finally challenged. So they make these attemps to target older gamers they lost with enhanced wii pad ports but they were caught with their pants down how hard an expensive HD development is, they didn't have the team sizes and tools to hit hard... It's a real tough on their bottom line with increased costs with less return, new challenges To ROI and relevancy.
I have faith it will get there, I just hope people stay close enough long enough to enjoy their investments. It's always abou content
The main contribution to an audience problem is perception. This audience problem was already present on the Wii. If Nintendo had the foresight to see that the mindshare carrying over would be a bad thing, they would not have named the system the WiiU. They would not have promoted it like a new Wii. They should have tried branding it as something else from the beginning and they might be in a better position.
Obviously things like the hardware are also big detriments to the appeal for developers and publishers, but if they started on a fresh slate they would have a better shot of people taking the system seriously to begin with. As it is, it's a continuation of the Wii joke.
Ninja Scooter
Member
I missed the part where he said that. Can you point it out to me after you actually read the OP?
Which of the games that sell like garbage have any sort of relevance for such a claim? CoD is a game which is mostly interesting for its audience because of the online multiplayer. If you are a typical CoD player you probably bought countless previous iterations of the game and always on one platform, obviously. So when the new game is still available on your platform, why would you move somewhere else?
You could argue that Zombi U didn't sell too well, but that's a very niche game, it just screams "hardcore", it has an old-school permadeath mechanism, and isn't exactly convenient to play. I'd say the sales were surprisingly good for what the game is, and I would hazard a guess that many buyers were probably not even satisfied with their purchase because they didn't know what to expect and bought the game because it was in a bundle or something.
Honestly, other than Zombi U, I don't even know which third party game was in a position to sell any substantial number of copies, all of them being late ports with very little marketing. No, wait, Monster Hunter 3U is another one, I guess, although that series never sold too well in the West. How is that one doing?
It's strange that people relate most of these 'no support for Wii U' comments to poor sales, when in reality, most - if not all - of these projects would have started long before these developers could even gather any sales related data.
It's clear that Wii U was never in the cards, and for whatever reasons, most developers prefer a wait-and-see attitude with Nintendo systems, while they have no problem "betting in the dark" with other consoles . The irony is that many devs perished with their bold bets during this generation, and the success of PS360 wasn't even because devs bet on the right horse, nor because those consoles were wildly successful out of the gate, but because of the continued support they got, even though devs went extinct left and right.
That's about as one-sided as any situation can get, and it's happening all over again. Only this time, do we have enough sacrificial devs to offer for the success of these coming consoles?
It's clear that Wii U was never in the cards, and for whatever reasons, most developers prefer a wait-and-see attitude with Nintendo systems, while they have no problem "betting in the dark" with other consoles . The irony is that many devs perished with their bold bets during this generation, and the success of PS360 wasn't even because devs bet on the right horse, nor because those consoles were wildly successful out of the gate, but because of the continued support they got, even though devs went extinct left and right.
That's about as one-sided as any situation can get, and it's happening all over again. Only this time, do we have enough sacrificial devs to offer for the success of these coming consoles?
TreasureHunterG
Banned
Indeed. An audience who bought a 300$ console to play a mini-game collection isn't exactly an encouraging userbase to bring your titles for.
Still, it's starting to become a fad among developers to ignore Wii U. Nintendo, of course, under the current management, won't give a damn. The excuse made from Deep Silver didn't avoided Ubisoft and Warner to bring their titles though.
reptilescorpio
Member
Smart move, don't overstretch your company.
superchunk
Member
Based on the quotes.
The quote regarding ps4/nextbox says exactly what I wrote.
"... but not on the first day. It's the same reason..."
It's the same reason is clearly referring to the quote just above regarding WiiU.
They simply don't do small userbased consoles and at this time they don't see WiiU getting that sizeable userbase. Once it does by 2014, they'll be there as well.
However, they are confident PS4/Nextbox will have that userbase eventually.
Seems pretty clear to me.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Or maybe they kind of figured that the Wii U would struggle to find sales and an audience and planned their business accordingly? Wasn't exactly a bold prediction to make. They are willing to bet on PS4/Durango because those are systems that will be attempted to be sold to an existing audience and to manufacturers that have shown a willingness to cultivate a third party friendly atmosphere much moreso than Nintendo ever has. If anything, Nintendo's struggle with 3rd party support are not a new phenomenon. It has been going on since N64. That's 5 out of 7 console generations (and five in a row) where, for whatever reason, Nintendo has been on the short stick when it comes to third party support? At what point does this become a pattern? At what point does it stop being the fault of the third parties fault and does it turn into a "Us" problem for Nintendo?
TreasureHunterG
Banned
Truth. Third-parties seems to be in a process of "freeze out" on Nintendo. It has been like this ever since the GCN. They try to find whatever excuse they can to not support a Nintendo console and this excuse later become the "official reason" for why Nintendo failed. I wonder if Nintendo made the PS2 or the PS3 what would be the excuses third-party would give to not support it, like "PS2's hardware is too complex" or "PS3's cell and blu-ray are too expensive".
Ninja Scooter
Member
lol delusion. Yeah third parties have collectively been colluding to give Nintendo shit third party support since 1996. Makes a ton of sense. Can't possibly be because of anything Nintendo is doing.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
If this is the case then they are truly screwed for the most part since they DIDN'T brand it right from the beginning and they already chose this hardware and have to live with it. That's why I struggle to see a solution, and I mean an overall solution. Not something that will help boost console sales to semi-normal levels, which I don't think will solve the overall problem.
But there is an audience problem don't you think? Who are buying Wii Us exactly? Who is it geared towards? I feel like Nintendo spend a whole generation with the wii marketing toward a single group, and that group sometime in the middle-end of that generation kind of moved on to other things, ipod/ipad/etc... as you said. So who is left? I think the annoyingly named "bro" audience is one nintendo NEEDS. People hate on them a lot but fact is they are the ones who buy lots of games, they pre-order things, they go to midnight launches, they tell their friends about games, etc...
Which games? Think about it. If zombi U, the game that had so much going for it only had a 10% attach rate...and everything else was less....just think about that for a moment. Everything not named mario is doing abysmal. That's my list. Everything but nsmbu.
Lets say if GameCube was PS2 success and PS2 was GameCube sales, developers would of supported the GameCube more, they wouldn't of ignored that large userbase.
Just like now, if and when the Wii U userbase starts to grow and PS3/360 sales start to decrease by a lot and devs stop making PS3/360 versions, lets say Wii U is 10 million more units sold than PS4/720 and the games sales pick up than Deep Silver will start making games for the Wii U (as well as PS4/720)
I don't think pubs just have this grudge against Nintendo for no reason (Microsoft seems to be the Nintendo of the 90's now) and if Nintendo tried to do anything they can to get support.
I think once the Wii U grows pubs will start having faith in it, that's why I don't see pubs ignoring PS3/360 for a least a few more years.
When Nintendo is having anxiety revealing New Super Mario Bros U sales, you know something is wrong.
Also Publishers do market research and analysis of want customers are willing to buy on platforms and which platforms they will purchase in the future. They have an assessment of where to bring their products to and they know better than to release content on the Wii U.
flatearthpandas
Member
You're right, of course. In my opinion, Nintendo has botched this about as badly as they could, especially with their (lack of) support.
I just don't agree with the comments in the OP, reflected by vocal members of the GAF community, that there is something inherent to Nintendo purchasers that means they won't buy "core" games.
The games offered for Wii U launch were games that anyone who owns more than just Nintendo consoles would have already owned if they were interested. It seems ludicrous to look at 3rd party sales right now and determine Wii U owners don't want core titles without releasing any new core titles.
Ubisoft is literally the only 3rd party who has any business coming to a conclusion like that if ZombiU didn't meet expectations. All the rest are lucky they sold any copies at all with their "efforts."
TreasureHunterG
Banned
Nintendo under Iwata is very japanese centric and under him he shut down pretty much all of NoA's development teams. There's a reason for a grudge between Nintendo and western pubs if you ask me.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Why would third party western publishers care if Nintendo shut down Left Field or cut off Silicon Knights? Why would this breed some sort of animosity? How does this make ANY sense? Can you honestly give a rational explanation?
And as for "japanese centric", Yamauichi makes Iwata look like Captain America.
Iwata is very Japanese centric but why would third party's hold a grudge because Nintendo closed some NoA development teams?
It's not third party's problem.
What's Nintendo doing now? Third Party's got mad that Nintendo sticked to cartridges instead of going to CD's with N64, GameCube was in the right direction but it had a low userbase and the small disks didn't help the GameCube, the Wii was too weak for most of the games last gen.
With the Wii U, it is weaker than PS4/720 but it's not 20x weaker like the Wii was, the Wii U disk capacity (if that's the correct word) is 25GB, doubled is 50GB like what the PS4/720 will have, I guess the adventage the PS4/720 will have over Wii U by a lot is the 8GB ram vs the 2GB, but the PS4/720 won't use all 8GB for games and the only company's I see using a huge amount of ram for games is the company's making the exclusives.
superchunk
Member
I don't think so.
It already has more 3rd party support and as its sales rebound during the rest of the year, it will pick up the smaller companies like Deep Silver who have no confidence right now to take the risk.