The Living Tribunal
Member
Come on now.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Catalan Independence Referendum(1-O) - The aftermath
- Thread starter turmoil
- Start date
Come on now.
Yeah, because that *didnt* happen.
jakonovski
Member
What's the support for having a referendum? It's not the same, or at least shouldn't be the same as support for a yes vote.
So you admit the poll was disrupted and can't be seen as a valid?
How can you accept polling on having a referendum as gospel (and they didn't offer one as it was illegitimate), yet deny polling that showed only 40% of people would vote in favour of independence? You don't see how laughably spurious it comes off as?
Theonik
Member
Do elections normally require that 50% of the total electorate vote for the government?
Relaxed Muscle
Member
80%
gutter_trash
Banned
Rajoy is biggest dumbass in politics.Funky Papa said:
All he had to do is do like what David Cameron did, and negotiate with Catalonia for the procedings just like the UK did with Scotland. Knowingly that Scotland would lose in an oifficially binding Referndum.
seeing these numbers, it would have been the same for Catalonia. the NO would have won.
Rajoy, instead has excerbated the sitation. Made it worse and given more reasons for the YES side to gain sympathy.
Rajoy's actions form Sunday does the OPPOSITE if his desired outcome.
now post-Sunday, sympathy for the YES side has gained more ground all because Rajoy has gone hardline proving the YES side right.
all this could have been avoided if only Rajoy took the David Cameron route.
I refer you to my previous answer:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=250907066&postcount=119
You'd have to bury your head in the sand to ignore the events surrounding the referendum.
Seriously, how do you reconcile 90% in favour when it was polling at 41% before? Do you genuinely believe the referendum's result was accurate?
eyeball_kid
Member
I'm fairly ignorant on the situation, but why don't they use their collective energy and political power to protest for stronger protections of their language and culture? Leaving Spain seems like the nuclear option, with a lot of negative knock-on effects. Reminds me of the French-Canadian separatists.
jakonovski
Member
The obvious answer to "surely the people support/don't support this big political thing" is "find out by having a (proper) referendum".
Night Terror
Member
Oh they have. I mean, the real issue is the PP. Search for that one time Wert said they needed to make catalan children more spanish.
gutter_trash
Banned
The difference with Quebec is that that they had two legal Referendums handled in peace.
Scotland had a legal Referendum handled in peace.
Madrid and Barcelona are both politically stubborn and dumb
Scotland had a legal Referendum handled in peace.
Madrid and Barcelona are both politically stubborn and dumb
Spain has lost all moral right to its continued governance of Catalunya. The behaviour of the Spanish Nationalists, Rajoy, The Government, The King and The Police have stripped Spain of all legitimacy in Catalunya.
The only sensible step forward is the swift agreement to a legal and binding referendum, to be held as soon as practicable and free from the sort of intimidation and brutality shown 3 days ago.
In lieu of this, a unilateral declaration of Catalan Independence, with all the terror and joy that it may bring, is inevitable.
Along these lines, Catalan Independence now has more of a mandate than the current UK Government.
(92% of 43% > 37% of 69%)
The only sensible step forward is the swift agreement to a legal and binding referendum, to be held as soon as practicable and free from the sort of intimidation and brutality shown 3 days ago.
In lieu of this, a unilateral declaration of Catalan Independence, with all the terror and joy that it may bring, is inevitable.
Along these lines, Catalan Independence now has more of a mandate than the current UK Government.
(92% of 43% > 37% of 69%)
Yeah the government should have just let people vote and declared it non-binding and illegal if Yes won. All they achieved with the violence was to stop the silent majority voting and push more moderates towards independence.
gutter_trash
Banned
I agree that the Referendum is illegal but there was no need for Rajoy to legitimize it with police violence.
Let them do their moke vote and just strike it down at the courts
deathkiller
Member
Or having elections, in the last regional elections the pro-independence parties said "this elections are a referendum and if you vote us we will declare the independence", they got 49% of the votes.
And later David Cameron route was fucked up with Brexit vote. Allow a referendum vote doesn't mean you are going to win.
Feelings change on few months quickly. Propaganda expands nowadays very fast with social networks and messaging services on smartphones.
gutter_trash
Banned
eyeball_kid
Member
I see. Yeah that reminds me of the U.S. and Canadian forced indoctrination of Native American children.
The Spanish government has really handled this in the worst way possible. Police brutality over a vote that wasn't even legal in the first place. If anything they've just legitimized the movement more.
That brings memories. I don't miss that dude.
Doesn't work like that, a good chunk of that GDP comes from foreign business located in Barcelona, those will move after a secession to operate in the rest of Spain. Also many Spanish/Catalan business such as Seat, Gas Natural, Caixabank, Sabadell have their main source of income in the rest of Spain, not in Catalonia, and those will move as well. So in the end Catalonia's GDP is not gonna be the same as before. And this is just a simplistic lecture, just wait to see the foreing investment in Catalonia....
Sad times from everyone.
jakonovski
Member
If it's a real multiparty system then that pretty much gives the mandate IMO.
gutter_trash
Banned
that is the wrong way to conduct democracy when it pertains to Referendums.
Clarity is paramount. It must be a clear question (without euphemisms) and done legitematelty
if you start moving the goal posts with bullshit like "well you voted for a nationalist-independentisy party so that automatically means..."
nope nope nope. a parliamentary election is not a Referendum
deathkiller
Member
Yes but is not practical to found a new country with the support of 49% of the population (or the 51% for that matter) so they decided to work on preparing the basics for the new state and try to gain more support using a referendum instead. My point is that we know what the Catalonians support (or supported as 2015) not by a poll or some questionable sided referendum but by an actual legitimate free vote. The referendum was not needed to find out this.
The coalition was called "together for Yes(to independence)" and had vowed to declare the independence if they won so it was clear cut what you meant by voting for them. The elections were called early specifically as a vote regarding the independence issue.
No, but elections and referendums on significant constitutional change are totally different things - and (in the UK at least) there have been referendums where a minimum turnout was specified beforehand for the result to be recognised. Suggesting that a referendum should have a certain % of turnout and/or winning margin is perfectly legitimate (and I would argue logical too)
gutter_trash
Banned
Nope, a legislative Election is not a Referendum no matter the Party.
A person may vote for a Party to apply pressure politically but not necessarily want Independence.
Clarity is paramount.
jakonovski
Member
I agree, definitely should be mandate to do a referendum because parliamentary elections cannot be single issue.
deathkiller
Member
It was not a Party it as a coalition with zero intentions of governing, they actually lost support compared to before forming the independence coalition. It was a plebiscite for them. Nobody at all had an unclear idea of what voting for them meant.
User123456
Member
Pretty much. While technically not the same as a referendum for independence, that's what the election was framed as by the media both before and after it took place, and also how literally anyone you asked on the street or social media understood it. Even the parties in question interpreted it in that way after the results came in.
forknknife
Banned
This post right here is the truth in my opinion, I agree 100%.
The only thing is that, even though I agree that both Rajoy and Puigdemont must go, the people will always be there and half of Catalonia just can't stand being part of Spain anymore and they are willing to go through the DUI and whatever that may bring to make that happen. What can you do with that? 155 would be a disaster in my opinion, it would be worse for the international public opinion of Spain than the police aggressions because this time they might be military aggressions.
I don't know. Even though I really think the independists are in the wrong here I don't see a good way out of this without a referendum.
Maybe if they saw some loving from Madrid things would change. I can perfectly see why some Catalans are so pissed with everything "Madrid" and Rajoy's recent movements have only made things worse.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Uh, so I was supposed to go to Barcelona in early November... Still safe to go?
Let's see what the Venice Commission (arguably the highest European authority in constitutional matters) has to say about referendum in their code of good practices:
A referendum is not a poll. The question, the answer and the consequences must be clear and complying with the law.
What the Catalan Government did was a farce. A farce with potential dramatic consequences.
And if the constitution doesn't allow for it, the first step is to change the said constitution.
A referendum is not a poll. The question, the answer and the consequences must be clear and complying with the law.
What the Catalan Government did was a farce. A farce with potential dramatic consequences.
And if the constitution doesn't allow for it, the first step is to change the said constitution.
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
If our government doesn't blow it more, it should be fine. Rajoy has decided not to call an extraordinary Parliament meeting which means it could take days before it is discussed in a plenary session. This is presumably being done to avoid criticism or a push to negotiation. Right now the most worrying possibility is the Catalonian Government unilaterally declaring independence. I'm afraid Rajoy wants this to happen, which is why he's delaying any discussion or calls to negotiation.
We must remember, Rajoy has refused to any talks with the Catalonian government for years now.
malingenie
Member
I'm going in 4 days. 😅
independently of you being against or not, this kind of stuff cannot be published
Then it goes thru goebbels decalogue comparing it with his actions. Asociating Nazism with politicals another way of creating xenophobic people. You can expect this crap on internet forums by some goombas not on a national newspaper.
Just behind you can see a hot photo book of a porn actress that supports a german soccer team, nice periodistic stuff right there.
Then it goes thru goebbels decalogue comparing it with his actions. Asociating Nazism with politicals another way of creating xenophobic people. You can expect this crap on internet forums by some goombas not on a national newspaper.
Just behind you can see a hot photo book of a porn actress that supports a german soccer team, nice periodistic stuff right there.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Look, I'm not validating the referendum, just saying that some places having more votes that population is normal. Ppl had their voting places closed or unavalaible and had to travel to vote, in other places the queues were so long that people went to less poblated areas to vote.
Theonik
Member
Sure, and there was rules stipulated. Those didn't include a supermajority or turnout requirements. Those are also quite rare in plebiscites, and hell look at the Brexit referendum to see how much of a shitshow that can be but it is what it is.
I have addressed all of those points above. I don't disagree, I was addressing the debt portion of the equation. The rest is anyone's guess. In the first place businesses can't leave overnight so Catalonia can use that time to get their statehood in order. Who knows.
Catalonia will almost assuredly take a financial hit. But some things are more important than money.
Moreover, for the result to have been anything but a victory for the Catalan nationalists, it would require a turnout in excess of 86% with a vote for no of 93% or more. The last Catalan election had a turnout of 75%. It is very hard to claim the result could have been a win for the Royalists given the results on display here.
You realise that these are both anecdotal evidences that hold practically the same value. Just that one of them shouldn't happen in any voting station in a properly ran voting system.
Yeah, and at the same time allowed them to vote in as many places and as many times as they wished. That's why it wasn't a smart move, let alone a genius move. It turned the "anything goes" mode on
???
Relaxed Muscle
Member
I mean, the voting wouldn't happened and the central goverment would have managed to not let people vote, which was the intention of sending 12k police officers to hit people to not allow it. A lot of centers still could have use the validation system, so it wasn't a full "anything goes".
The referendum it lacked the proper mechanism to make it valid, dosn't mean all 2,2 million votes were fake. A lot of people voted, we all saw the images and I was there to see it.
I still mantain that the results of the referendum are meaningless, it was an amazing, massive social movement.
I agree with you that this not the way to do it, but, it was the only way... i'll explain you how it worked:
Police turned down the application to do the vote in some hours, many places had to do manual votes during some periods, in that moment...guys like the one in that photo could vote in different places, but...when the vote count started they had to introduce the data in the application.
When the application detects that the same DNI (id) voted multiple times, that urn became invalidated, and all the votes coming from that urn didn't count. So, people like that only fucked up thousands of votes.
Theonik
Member
The Kingdom of Spain. The Republic of Catalonia.
I wanted to say Loyalists initially but the king of Spain's latest remarks tempt me so. Please understand.
forknknife
Banned
Sorry because it's in Spanish only but this interview is the best I've read yet from the Catalan independist side of things. Many good arguments in there although, in the end, I still don't think a UDI is a good idea at all.
http://ctxt.es/es/20171004/Politica/15325/
http://ctxt.es/es/20171004/Politica/15325/
Many years ago I began developing a fictional country called Catal in a fictional game I've played since adolescence called Hollow. A lot of worldbuilding has gone into it and multiple players play Catalian characters right now. I've been told by numerous people that this whole saga has them thinking of my silly fictional country first and foremost due to the naming similarities. It's been... it's been weird.
Back in reality: this whole situation's fucked. Spain fucked up. Big time. But I don't see this nationalistic streak ending especially well, either. This region's bankrupt. Ugh, what a time to be alive. My best hopes for all involved.
Back in reality: this whole situation's fucked. Spain fucked up. Big time. But I don't see this nationalistic streak ending especially well, either. This region's bankrupt. Ugh, what a time to be alive. My best hopes for all involved.
Come on. The King doesn't have any real power. He is bound to accept whatever the government does and stand on the line even if he doesn't agree with him.
He just can't take an stance of his own that could crash with the authority of the government. Because then he'd get a lot of shit for extra limiting his authority.
He is just there mainly for diplomatic purposes. He is a rather well prepared person for fulfilling his role. And calling out the government isn't one of those things. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't really remember the King (neither the current nor the previous one) ever calling out the national government when they made a mistake. And there have been quite a few different presidents and a lot of dumb decisions done since 1977.
I don't consider myself a royalist, I wouldn't mind if I woke up tomorrow and Spain was a Republic. But I feel he's just stood on the line like the person in his position has been doing for the past 42 years.
Well yeah, but that's because it was done unilaterally by Catalonia, obviously they are going to apply the conditions that best give them the chance to declare independence. I would imagine that leave winning by 1 vote would be all it takes for them to say its legit. So I wouldn't really give much weight to the stipulated rules (especially considering it seems that people could vote multiple times!)
And don't remind me about Brexit! So many things about that referendum were handled absolutely awfully
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked