VincentMatts
Member
yes ultimately, what im saying is in halo CE, they were fun to fight. In 4-5 the Promethean were not. Its more than just the enemy type.
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343i Acknowledges Halo 5 Storytelling Mistake, Will Double Down on Master Chief Focus
- Thread starter Cranster
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yes ultimately, what im saying is in halo CE, they were fun to fight. In 4-5 the Promethean were not. Its more than just the enemy type.
And I'm sure it was heavily focus tested as well.
Which is fine, but you were arguing that you wanted easier-to-kill enemy designs, in the sense of being run-and-gun types. I was honestly confused, and it seemed like you were saying designs like that were characteristic of the series.
VincentMatts
Member
What i meant is, you could play those games run and gun and it worked. Thats how i did it. In 4, you cant. And not so surprisingly, a lot of people didnt like 4.
That's one of my biggest gripes. I've never faced an enemy in any game that had teleport abilities and thought it was fun.
I started this whole exchange recognizing that it's cool if we have different opinions, but when I tried to work out what you mean (even now, I'm not seeing eye-to-eye), it wasn't clear. Saying you want "fun" enemies or encounters "that work" isn't useful information to someone designing for that. The better we put this stuff into words, the easier it'll be to get the games we want.
VincentMatts
Member
take out promethans = fun.
You're not worth talking to.
VincentMatts
Member
We're a long way from halos 30 seconds of fun. Its their job to figure that out, not mine.
Fact is, the Promethean are shitty enemies. Less of them is better.
What? No, our design process is not driven by data. Data is a tool we use to examine some results and thesis. Data is a tool you can use to examine aspects of innovation, but it's not a barrier to invention or innovation in any way.
That would be a highly backward way to approach design - and to your point innovation.
I believe the Promethean situation is just a bit too complicated to nail down to one reason. For me personally, its a few things:
The Covenant, although just another enemy to some, all seemed like individuals as well as being cogs in a greater machine, and their menacing force as they try and kill you, their banter between themselves and other covenant species, it all felt real. They dodge and jump out of way of fire, they curse when you murder their comrades, they laugh when they succeed in killing you, etc. The Grunts confidence fading and cowardice prevailing as you take out their Elite leader, the Jackels frantically scrambling away for cover when their shields are popped, the Hunters wordlessly lumbering towards you, it all felt like a living breathing alien society that was unrelenting and out to kill you.
The Prometheans lack that. They have faces, but lack that level of individuality, that level of believability. They feel mechanical, and one can argue that's on purpose, but even then its in stark contrast to what many are used too. More than that however, things like teleportation feel cheap, like they are playing with a different set of rules in the same game, a large departure from the Covenant. When I throw a grenade, and an Elite dodges, I don't feel cheated because he dodged, I feel like my enemy isn't as foolish as I had hoped and ill have to play better as a result. When I throw a grenade at a promethean enemy, and they teleport away leaving the grenade pointless and attempting to shoot at them is also now impossible until they reappear, it feels cheap. Manufactured.
I'm not gonna say change is bad, but it often feels like the changes 343 make are often half hearted, like they are always concerned about the reaction from the community, which sucks from a creative standpoint. My problem isn't that Prometheans aren't the covenant, its that they lack any type of defining traits that make them unique to Halo, the exact opposite of the covenant. You could switch the Prometheans out of Halo 5 with mechanical enemies from just about any sci-fi shooter, and I doubt many would be able to tell, and that's the biggest issue imo.
The Covenant, although just another enemy to some, all seemed like individuals as well as being cogs in a greater machine, and their menacing force as they try and kill you, their banter between themselves and other covenant species, it all felt real. They dodge and jump out of way of fire, they curse when you murder their comrades, they laugh when they succeed in killing you, etc. The Grunts confidence fading and cowardice prevailing as you take out their Elite leader, the Jackels frantically scrambling away for cover when their shields are popped, the Hunters wordlessly lumbering towards you, it all felt like a living breathing alien society that was unrelenting and out to kill you.
The Prometheans lack that. They have faces, but lack that level of individuality, that level of believability. They feel mechanical, and one can argue that's on purpose, but even then its in stark contrast to what many are used too. More than that however, things like teleportation feel cheap, like they are playing with a different set of rules in the same game, a large departure from the Covenant. When I throw a grenade, and an Elite dodges, I don't feel cheated because he dodged, I feel like my enemy isn't as foolish as I had hoped and ill have to play better as a result. When I throw a grenade at a promethean enemy, and they teleport away leaving the grenade pointless and attempting to shoot at them is also now impossible until they reappear, it feels cheap. Manufactured.
I'm not gonna say change is bad, but it often feels like the changes 343 make are often half hearted, like they are always concerned about the reaction from the community, which sucks from a creative standpoint. My problem isn't that Prometheans aren't the covenant, its that they lack any type of defining traits that make them unique to Halo, the exact opposite of the covenant. You could switch the Prometheans out of Halo 5 with mechanical enemies from just about any sci-fi shooter, and I doubt many would be able to tell, and that's the biggest issue imo.
VincentMatts
Member
Yes, exactly. In warzone FF, sometimes they'll teleport multiple times in row as if once wasn't enough. lol its ridiculous. Like teleport, stop for a split second and teleport 2 more times in a row... I mean, who finds that fun? Its like chasing after your dog after you dropped the leash. Everyone just loves that.
Otherwise, everything you said was spot on.
This is so buzzwordy as to mean basically nothing. Data are just a collection of information organized in some fashion. How would that impede innovation, unless you think all innovation just magically appears out of nowhere.
Maybe a way to turn this around without retconning things is to upgrade the Chief, rather than change the Promethians. The Promethians clearly engaged in lots of combat in their history, wouldnt their enemies have designed countermeasures? Maybe Chief can find some of that tech.
Here are some examples:
* New visor tech predicts and identifies teleport destinations on the HUD.
* Special grenades that actually stop teleporting from happening, or actually teleport along with their targets.
* Visor/weapon upgrades to automatically target Promethian weak spots.
There are many possibilities.
VincentMatts
Member
Yeah. I would assume that data is especially useful for finding problematic areas as an example. Like to pinpoint problematic areas and parts of the games that are too difficult. Like for example: If everyone dies here all the time, it might be a problem. I dont see how that can stop innovation.
Yeah maybe but as it is now, its no fun.
Your ideas would require some 'changes' to halo mechanics that we all know everyone is totally on board for.
Yeah. I would assume that data is especially useful for finding problematic areas as an example. Like to pinpoint problematic areas and parts of the games that are too difficult. Like for example: If everyone dies here all the time, it might be a problem. I dont see how that can stop innovation.
Yeah maybe but as it is now, its no fun.
Your ideas would require some 'changes' to halo mechanics that we all know everyone is totally on board for.
Exactly, like if you have data showing that people toss their controllers off the couch in disgust at being forced to fight Warden Eternal 36 times, you could tune it down to 32 or 33 fights with him instead.
Halo 6 is just a Warden Eternal boss rush for 8 hours, no shields, pistol only.
Finish the fight.
VincentMatts
Member
And they removed sprint
samurai1226
Member
What bothers me the most about the prometheans is that they lack of emotional connection. The covenant always felt like real squads. They shout commands, they comment what they do or see on the battlefield, curse you when you kill their teammates, they scream in anger or fear, they can become desperate once they are losing (like suicide grunts or elites running into melee). They even taunt you when you die.
With the prometheans, all of that is lost. Some have special abilities like teleporting or shielding teammates. But they never feel like they actually are fighting together or like their mechanics are actual reactions to things happening on the battlefield. The crawlers are doing their thing, watchers randomly hang around their knights, etc. They don't react to the encounter you play - and more importantly they don't transport their reaction to the player. Do they feel anger or fear when they lose? Do they would give their life to kill you with all they got? We don't know, because all we see is robots with skull-helmets that are doing robot sounds.
It's stuff like that which made Halos combat against the covenant so authentic and so much fun. You had a laugh with your friends about the encounters. You played the campaign over and over and you always found new cool ways how the enemies react on the battlefield - in terms of gameplay and chitchatting. And I'm not even talking about the IWHBYD skull.
What I want to say is, the covenant always felt like believable enemies and I think that was a big part what made Halo so much fun. How should you feel connected to robot enemies that can just respawn in waves like that CGI-canonfodder-army you see nowadays in nearly every comic movie.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
Great vid on why they aren't liked:
https://youtu.be/aN5ja0tfQAE
They have potential to work, but the vid clearly explains why they don't yet.
VincentMatts
Member
So basically exactly what ive been saying. Ultimately It needs to be more run and gun.
completely agree with the video. He mentions a lot of good points, like the enemy colors.
That's pretty good. I like to experiment with something like that.
I've been a fan of building them with an internal resource system that a player can get their head around; they can be super mobile, but that mobility is using what would normally be shield energy. Even something similar to the current system with glowing armor openings, but akin to overheating.
Please god don't look to Gears 4 DeeBees as a way to fight waves and waves of robot AI created. Nothing that is frustrating to a slow movin FPS supersoldier. I think the new Knights are much better than the last ones. Cut the Soldier teleport, but don't let us hamper your innovation. However what you learned from crawlers and watchers in H4 is how you should proceed with whatever you have planned for H6.
I think for the Promethean's (and this goes for other enemy types too with exceptions) damage output also needs to be reduced, or atleast on higher dificulties. All of their weapons for the most part home in on you and Close Quarter weapons are not advised either because they can kill you with a one hit melee. High ranked knights and Elites with Energy swords I have no issues with one hit kill melee attacks. But soldiers, crawlers and Elites with non melee based weapons should not be able to kill you with one melee attack.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
Correct. They lack personality, they feel the same, they are tedious, don't allow much variation in combat, they have too many precision weapons, their design doesn't fit Halo forerunner style, they look too similar... The list goes on.
I think the Prometheans would be better off with only 2 or 3 distinct guns and you don't encounter them much, but when you do you fear them.
VincentMatts
Member
Thats what the elites kinda have when you hit them enough, their shields overheat and the players can see that visually. And that video above mentions the different enemy colors which ultimately told the player what kind of battle to expect when you saw them. All this stuff was small details, but very important details that made the overall gameplay a lot more refined.
yep, Ive always felt something was off about them and that video explains it really well.
When you see the huge variety of interesting enemies in Destiny, it really does make me wonder why the Promethiens even exist? Terrible, soulless, robotic boring enemies. Halo should just jump forward a few years and reboot the story and introduce multiple different alien enemies for the chief to fight. Maybe visit new Halo rings or something. The current story feels so stale.
There's so much potential in the Halo universe! Ditching the Promethiens needs to be a priority.
There's so much potential in the Halo universe! Ditching the Promethiens needs to be a priority.
... What?
VincentMatts
Member
Well, the one thing destiny does right is gameplay. The enemies are all fun to fight. And by variety, i think he means copies of halo enemies with different names.
Most of Destiny's enemies are bullet sponges.Well, the one thing destiny does right is gameplay. The enemies are all fun to fight. And by variety, i think he means copies of halo enemies with different names.
VincentMatts
Member
Because of the way the game is designed, yes. They're still fun battles, they just take longer.
I found them to be a chore. Destiny was a huge disappointment and I haven't touched it since Halo 5 was released.
I think one of the reasons the covies have been fun to fight is because their behaviors and weaponry both encourage movement. That plus the shield mechanic made it feel like each engagement was a 3D time-puzzle and it has a different solution every time...
Most of the weapons were projectile, but they moved at different speeds, encouraging you to strafe, jump, and duck, while skillfully picking of member of the opposition strategically. It almost like a tacticle bullet hell game at times.
When you get to the prometheans, the weapons are mostly projectile, but you can't dodge them, because they are fast moving and homing. They simply suppress you. Avoiding their fire isn't fun. You are compelled to take pop shots like a game of COD but with annoyingly high ttks.
Damaging the prometheans also isn't fun. At least not when we've been spoiled by the shield system. The armor/health system they employ just makes them feel like sponges. And the feedback they give is not rewarding or informative.
Promethean behaviors also aren't fun. The covies are both predictable unpredictable at the same time. They switch up their routines, but you can learn how to divide and concur them in new ways every time by manipulating their self preservation routines. The prometheans Just jump and teleport randomly around the map, not really caring about their own well being, surpressing you as you widdle their armor hoping they don't teleport behind you.
Most of the weapons were projectile, but they moved at different speeds, encouraging you to strafe, jump, and duck, while skillfully picking of member of the opposition strategically. It almost like a tacticle bullet hell game at times.
When you get to the prometheans, the weapons are mostly projectile, but you can't dodge them, because they are fast moving and homing. They simply suppress you. Avoiding their fire isn't fun. You are compelled to take pop shots like a game of COD but with annoyingly high ttks.
Damaging the prometheans also isn't fun. At least not when we've been spoiled by the shield system. The armor/health system they employ just makes them feel like sponges. And the feedback they give is not rewarding or informative.
Promethean behaviors also aren't fun. The covies are both predictable unpredictable at the same time. They switch up their routines, but you can learn how to divide and concur them in new ways every time by manipulating their self preservation routines. The prometheans Just jump and teleport randomly around the map, not really caring about their own well being, surpressing you as you widdle their armor hoping they don't teleport behind you.
VincentMatts
Member
Oh man, i have a lot of problems with destiny but gameplay was not one of them. Sure all the enemies are more spongy but thats the way the game is designed. It wouldnt make much sense to kill a mission boss with one snipe to the head.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
Agreed completely. The only Promethean design I liked was when they carried a turret with its bright shield and lobbed projectiles around you. It's readable and dodge-able.
Recently playing Halo 1, even dodging drop ship fire is a satisfying skill. You can literally run up on a drop ship, get fired at, dodge it, and fight the covies jumping out.
Good luck doing any of that kind of dynamic play against Prometheans.
Also, I think the constant orange light is ugly and ill-fitting.
Edit: the bullet sponge complaint of Destiny is unrelated, but I think it's overblown. If you are spending too much time on a single enemy you are under leveled in some way (unless it's a boss).
Musky_Cheese
Banned
I'm sure I won't be saying anything here that hasn't already been said.
The disappointment for me was the misinformation about the verses MC. And fighting the warden eternal 50 times was boring. The new Spartans didn't interest me. And I didn't get a chance to miss Cortana.
Also halo 4 and 5 mp were lackluster for me
The disappointment for me was the misinformation about the verses MC. And fighting the warden eternal 50 times was boring. The new Spartans didn't interest me. And I didn't get a chance to miss Cortana.
Also halo 4 and 5 mp were lackluster for me
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
I watched DSP beat the campaign by just running past the fights tho.
Some of them, but there were some genuinely fun boss fights in Destiny (emphasis on SOME). In particular, the Vault of Glass was stellar.
I don't think that I would classify any boss fight in a 343 Halo game as "fun," or even "modestly entertaining." I think that "chore" would probably be more apt.
I am a fan of the non-traditional boss fights of yore - the dual Scarab encounters in Halo 3, the Warthog runs, the final stand in Reach... (That's not to say that Bungie doesn't have their own fair share of stinkers - lest we forget Tartarus, Guilty Spark, and Regret.)
It's clear to me, that after 10 years, 343 still doesn't get what made Halo encounters fun... and that's frustrating to me. It's OK to make your own mark on the franchise, but when your mark alters the game so much that it's practically unrecognizable, in both gameplay and aesthetic, I think that it becomes a problem.
gollumsluvslave
Member
Great points! i mentioned it a couple of pages ago - what is the Prometheans motivation? They just get gated / warped in, with little grounding in the fiction or the setting, or even the immediate environment! There does not appear to be much Promethean society (but then they are fuckin' robots') How do you get a raw emotional connection with purposeless robots, compared to Alien Scum that are trying to Wipe You The Fuck Out? It's not even the same ball park of a comparison...
Bungie are some of the best at combat design. I can load up a patrol and still have fun shooting shit. Halo 5 doesn't come close to that.
godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
Okay, understood. I am actually familiar with the practice. One of the products I develop is used for A/B testing for marketing engagement. Over time I feel that the "designers" rely too much on the A/B test for every minute change, and the final experience is basically driven by data. In Halo 5, I truly disliked the Warden fights, but I applaud the gamble you guys took there, and I am confident that eventually one of those experiments will be successful.
Not really. There are a few pitfalls to data-driven design that can potentially harm innovation. I am not familiar with the KPIs used in gaming focus groups, but often, innovation can be stunted when you are measuring the wrong variables. I am not familiar with gaming focus groups, or the way in which 343i collects data, so I cannot make a proper assessment. Stinkles deconstruction of their design process just worried me a bit, but I am happy with Halo 5 overall.
What makes you say they are *just* reacting, vs. integrating feedback when they think it makes sense and fits with their internal vision?
godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
There is a vision, but it seems that they use data to correct aspects they realized do not work.
You HAVE to have a feedback loop. If your vision doesn't align with what consumers want to buy, then the vision needs tweaking.
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