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nkarafo · Dec 13, 2017

Yeah i know, "what year is this".

Still though, i actually have a sound card installed in my current PC. And it's one from 2002, an Audigy 2. But i feel like this card still sounds better than modern motherboard chips, at least from my experience so far. Also, i use custom drivers since there are no official ones for Windows 10 and they work nicely.

But i am very curious about newer cards. Creative alone have released many models since. There's Audigy X-Fi, Audigy RX, Recon 3D, Sound Blaster Z and many other models. And from what i read online i can't tell whether all these cards will have a noticeable difference with the one i use now, heck, some posts even suggest that some newer cards may even have regressions compared to older ones. And then you have the external solutions that i have no idea how they work or sound.

So i'm confused. I like the sound of my Audigy 2 but i also have this annoying thought that i might miss a lot by keeping this 15 year old dinosaur in my modern PC. Plus, when i build a new PC in 2 or 3 years, i probably won't be able to use it anymore since old PCI slots won't exist anymore. So, anyone who has some experience with upgrading sound cards over the years might help with some suggestions?

llien · Dec 13, 2017

Hm, what speakers are you using with it?

I still have predecessor of these (5100) it came with amplifier and remote (not on the image):
https://www.cnet.com/products/creative-labs-inspire-5-1-5300/specs/

And was using creative's to, well, details I forgot by now (it could not pass over audio in digital format in other configurations)

To me, speakers and amplifier (if you use any) matter more than the card

MultiCore · Dec 13, 2017

Are you looking for gaming features, or absolute audio quality? If it's the latter, you may be in the market for an external DAC/Amp.

I have a Schiit Jotunheim, running Sennheiser HD 800S's and I see no reason to look for other audio equipment, except perhaps some powered monitors down the line, and the Jot well drive those balanced just fine.

What's your budget? You may be interested in any number of solutions, depending on your speakers or headphones.

nkarafo · Dec 13, 2017

Speakers i'm using are the Logitech Z-5400

My budget is around 100 euros but i would rather spend a bit less if possible (most sound cards seem to be in that range).

I mostly care about sound quality.

So you say that i will hear a noticeable difference with an external DAC over the Audigy 2?

Aztorian · Dec 13, 2017

Are audio cards really needed? Asking for a friend.

nkarafo · Dec 13, 2017

Aztorian said:
Are audio cards really needed? Asking for a friend.

I listen to music a lot on my PC and i can't really stand listening to music on most on-board chips, they sound either muffled or flat. With the card i have i can make some adjustments to fit my speakers and make it sound very rich in comparison. The difference is night and day for me.

I suppose it depends on how much a person cares. I know most people won't ever touch the software/drivers to adjust the sound to their liking.

Narroo · Dec 13, 2017

Aztorian said:
Are audio cards really needed? Asking for a friend.

Depends. Onboard sound can actually output a large amount of electrical noise onto analogue connections. My laptop has an extremely noticeable hiss when I hook up headphones directly to it and plug the power cord in.

My solution was to get a USB DAC, which avoids the whole problem. In principle, a good soundcard would have also been a solution if I had a desktop.

Aztorian · Dec 13, 2017

nkarafo said:
I listen to music a lot on my PC and i can't really stand listening to music on most on-board chips, they sound either muffled or flat. With the card i have i can make some adjustments to fit my speakers and make it sound very rich in comparison. The difference is night and day for me.

I suppose it depends on how much a person cares. I know most people won't ever touch the software/drivers to adjust the sound to their liking.

I do have a Realtek soundcard though, But it was causing problems for my previous headset. Realtek isn't really the most expensive card either, just basic shit. My music and game sounds are just fine I think, however I don't have any comparison material.

EDT: However I was wondering if a soundcard would boosts Dolby surround since I have Dolby Atmos on my pc now..

nkarafo · Dec 13, 2017

Aztorian said:
I do have a Realtek soundcard though, But it was causing problems for my previous headset. Realtek isn't really the most expensive card either, just basic shit. My music and game sounds are just fine I think, however I don't have any comparison material.

EDT: However I was wondering if a soundcard would boosts Dolby surround since I have Dolby Atmos on my pc now..

I stuck with the Audigy 2 for all these years and i never researched anything for newer stuff so i don't know. And my only comparison is with some motherboards i tested.

The Audigy 2 was a good quality card when it was released, it wasn't a cheap/budget version, that's why i don't know how big the difference will be with something more modern. I assume a 50-60 euros modern internal sound card will be superior but i can't be sure unless someone who made such a comparison can confirm.

Aztorian · Dec 13, 2017

nkarafo said:
I stuck with the Audigy 2 for all these years and i never researched anything for newer stuff so i don't know. And my only comparison is with some motherboards i tested.

The Audigy 2 was a good quality card when it was released, it wasn't a cheap/budget version, that's why i don't know how big the difference will be with something more modern. I assume a 50-60 euros modern internal sound card will be superior but i can't be sure unless someone who made such a comparison can confirm.

Can't you find aything about that on Youtube or something? There are comparisons for pretty much everything these days xD

nkarafo · Dec 13, 2017

Aztorian said:
Can't you find aything about that on Youtube or something? There are comparisons for pretty much everything these days xD

There are many reviews but very few comparisons.

Memorabilia · Dec 13, 2017

Im sort of in the same boat in that I have an old Audigy 2 Platinum in one system and a M-Audio Revolution (google it) in another. Over the past few years Ive occasionally looked into buying a newer soundcard for one or both systems, but in the end I have come to the conclusion its not worth the cost since many/most of the possible replacement options are not as good as what I already have in terms of hardware/sound quality. A newer sound card might offer better compatibility for this or that feature/sound field, but ultimately I kinda dont care about that. The main weakness in most modern sound cards is they all seem to use software based decoding, whereas both cards I have use onboard hardware DACs. I dont think any reasonably priced product is going to touch the M-Audio card in terms of sound quality. The sound card market really stagnated a few years back and never really recovered. I might look into it again just for shits and giggles.

JimmyRustler · Dec 13, 2017

Aztorian said:
Are audio cards really needed? Asking for a friend.

A definitive yes.

I have a pretty good mainboard (Asus Maximus Hero VII) which is supposed to have a good sound card by default and bought the Fiio e10k the other day just to test if there is a difference.

Long story short: I will keep the Fiio.

I can recommend this small amplifier to everyone by the way. It's not that expensive (cost me 80 EUR), plug and play and there is no confusing software you have to deal with. There are only 2 switches. High/low volume and bass on/off. It's very convenient and the sound is AMAZING. Love this thing. I doubt that the dedicated "gamer" sound cards are much better and worth the extra mark up.

nkarafo · Dec 13, 2017

Memorabilia said:
The main weakness in most modern sound cards is they all seem to use software based decoding, whereas both cards I have use onboard hardware DACs. I dont think any reasonably priced product is going to touch the M-Audio card in terms of sound quality. The sound card market really stagnated a few years back and never really recovered. I might look into it again just for shits and giggles.

Thanks, this is the kind of info i'm looking for.

I assume the Audigy 2 is similar to the platinum you have since the only difference that i know of is the extra interface and remote control.

I guess i'm going to keep the card for now and maybe get an external USB one and use both to make comparisons. I could use an optical output and the Audigy doesn't have that.

Nikodemos · Dec 13, 2017

How are Asus Xonars nowadays?

Kadayi · Dec 13, 2017

Nikodemos said:
How are Asus Xonars nowadays?

No Win10 support apparently

Joyful · Dec 13, 2017

Nikodemos said:
How are Asus Xonars nowadays?

Official drivers are trash and broken

Unofficial xonar unified drivers work great, even on Windows 10

I can only speak for essence st tho

EdwardTivrusky · Dec 13, 2017

Joyful said:
Official drivers are trash and broken
Unofficial xonar unified drivers work great, even on Windows 10
I can only speak for essence st tho

I have a Xonar DGX running the unofficial unified drivers on Win 10 with no problem too. That said there are some Win 10 issues reported on their page, i just haven't noticed or been impacted by them.

As for buying a new one, eh. If the Audigy 2 is still supported, doesn't hog the CPU and has a sound you like then i'm not sure it'd be worth it unless there's a feature or newer output that would fit better with the kit you have.

As for future proofing i'd keep the Audigy 2 as it's "good enough" for now and maybe look out for any USB 3 external DAC thingies that will undoubtedly turn up.

Shadoron · Dec 13, 2017

If you are looking into the Sound Blaster internal cards, stay away from the "Z" series. The Win10 drivers are broken, and haven't been fixed in months. I have one, that I use for the headphone amp, and I have to constantly roll back the drivers for it to work. I haven't found a way to stop Win10 from updating them. Looking at the newer Creative models, it seems they work fine with Win10. You can also look into the Xonar series, but you need to use the unofficial drivers for Win10 (as a poster mentioned above). You can also use a USB DAC, but you will lose some of the features an internal sound card will give you, like multi channel audio out, EQ, software mixer, etc. You will also typically get a better headphone AMP on an internal card, unless you are spending the big bucks for a very nice DAC. I picked up one of the Creative E series battery powered USB DACs for boosting audio on planes, and it works... but it's nothing like the headphone amp on the "Z". Obviously, something like a high end Fiiio or Mojo USB DAC will give you great sound output, and are comparably priced to higher end internal sound cards. Just depends what your use case will be. Whatever you do decide, definitely stay away from on board sound chips, like you've been doing!

magnumpy · Dec 14, 2017

I would echo the statements that have already been made, if you need better sound get better speakers and a nice subwoofer. it would make more of a difference.

Seishin · Dec 14, 2017

Grab a Sound Blaster Z.

Hardware DAC, built in amp, and a bunch of other goodies. OEM installer version will run you a bit less if you don't need the silly headphone adaptor/mic thing.

It's pretty great.

Dalauz · Dec 14, 2017

irq7 DMA 220

J-Rzez · Dec 14, 2017

I have a Sennheiser GSX-1000 mix/amp. It sounds really, really good. Nice controls too. The thing that surprised me most was there's a lot of things that promise surround sound from a 2.0 headset. Most are off. Well this thing is damn close to true positional audio. Very convincing. Only thing is, I expected a little more oomph from it. Don't get me wrong, better than high end mobo audio, but it still doesn't drive my Sennheiser g4me zeros as hoped. But they do require a bit of power to sing. It also has a nice audio pass through to other speakers.

For a lot of people, a small USB DAC Amp would prob suffice.

nkarafo · Dec 14, 2017

magnumpy said:
I would echo the statements that have already been made, if you need better sound get better speakers and a nice subwoofer. it would make more of a difference.

Ah, my speakers are good enough.

https://www.cnet.com/products/logitech-z-5400-digital-speaker-system-for-pc-series/specs/

Shadoron said:
If you are looking into the Sound Blaster internal cards, stay away from the "Z" series. The Win10 drivers are broken, and haven't been fixed in months. I have one, that I use for the headphone amp, and I have to constantly roll back the drivers for it to work. I haven't found a way to stop Win10 from updating them.

Thanks for your input.

Have you tried finding any better custom drivers? Also, there is a way to prevent Windows 10 from updating device drivers during it's general update procedure, i found some guides recently on how to stop it updating my graphics card drivers. Maybe the same thing applies for a sound card.

http://www.itprotoday.com/microsoft-azure/savills-faqs-using-powershell-file-comparison-capability
https://www.howtogeek.com/263851/how-to-prevent-windows-from-automatically-updating-specific-drivers/

Seishin said:
Grab a Sound Blaster Z.

Hardware DAC, built in amp, and a bunch of other goodies. OEM installer version will run you a bit less if you don't need the silly headphone adaptor/mic thing.

It's pretty great.

I found one used at 40 euros so it's either that or a decent external DAC. In any case, i will keep my Audigy 2 as it's possible to have multiple sound devices so if i'm unhappy with the results i can still use that at least.

Shadoron · Dec 14, 2017

nkarafo said:
Thanks for your input.

Have you tried finding any better custom drivers? Also, there is a way to prevent Windows 10 from updating device drivers during it's general update procedure, i found some guides recently on how to stop it updating my graphics card drivers. Maybe the same thing applies for a sound card.

I'm going to have to hunt around and see if anyone came up with custom drivers. I was sorta hoping that Creative would have fixed the problem by now. The hardware itself is really nice, and it looks like you found one for a great price.

laxu · Dec 14, 2017

nkarafo said:
Speakers i'm using are the Logitech Z-5400

My budget is around 100 euros but i would rather spend a bit less if possible (most sound cards seem to be in that range).

I mostly care about sound quality.

So you say that i will hear a noticeable difference with an external DAC over the Audigy 2?

With those speakers I don't think you will get any improvement over the Audigy. Sound card tech really hasn't moved much over the years and things like positional audio are now done in software due to increases in CPU performance.

I still use a 10 year old FireWire external audio interface with my computer and it works fine.

Reizo Ryuu · Dec 14, 2017

Haha still using my good old audigy 2ZS as well, had to use a custom driver package to get it to work properly though.
But yeah, with my logitech z-5500 it sounds noticely better than onboard solutions. I was looking into some stuff by auzentech but the upgrade seemed so minimal, it didn't feel worth it.

Herne · Dec 14, 2017

Shadoron said:
If you are looking into the Sound Blaster internal cards, stay away from the "Z" series. The Win10 drivers are broken, and haven't been fixed in months. I have one, that I use for the headphone amp, and I have to constantly roll back the drivers for it to work. I haven't found a way to stop Win10 from updating them. Looking at the newer Creative models, it seems they work fine with Win10. You can also look into the Xonar series, but you need to use the unofficial drivers for Win10 (as a poster mentioned above). You can also use a USB DAC, but you will lose some of the features an internal sound card will give you, like multi channel audio out, EQ, software mixer, etc. You will also typically get a better headphone AMP on an internal card, unless you are spending the big bucks for a very nice DAC. I picked up one of the Creative E series battery powered USB DACs for boosting audio on planes, and it works... but it's nothing like the headphone amp on the "Z". Obviously, something like a high end Fiiio or Mojo USB DAC will give you great sound output, and are comparably priced to higher end internal sound cards. Just depends what your use case will be. Whatever you do decide, definitely stay away from on board sound chips, like you've been doing!

There are unofficial drivers for the Z series that work just fine, Windows 10 on my pc doesn't try to update them. I only use the sound card for my headset, a Roccat Kave 5.1 that has four or five audio plugs. I wish I'd never needed to buy the Z card. It has only ever given me trouble in one game - Mount & Blade Warband, but if it can happen in one, it can happen in others (the game sound turns to distorted screeches for a few seconds, increasingly happening until it kills all sound altogether).

RoboFu · Dec 14, 2017

If you run your video and sound out through a hdmi cable to your tv or surround sound receiver then no you dont need a sound card.

lensoftruth · Dec 14, 2017

No point unless you need a decent analog out and most PC speaker systems wouldn't benefit.

Swig_ · Dec 14, 2017

I've been considering buying one because I've had all sorts of problems with on-board Realtek audio and drivers. Every once in a while, something happens and my sound doesnt work or doesnt work right and I have to spend a couple of hours reinstalling drivers until it actually works. I never had any problems until I upgraded to Windows 10. Windows 10 and Realtek drivers do not get along.

magnumpy · Dec 14, 2017

nkarafo said:
Ah, my speakers are good enough.

https://www.cnet.com/products/logitech-z-5400-digital-speaker-system-for-pc-series/specs/

again, if you want better sound get better speakers. if you have "good enough" sound then what is the point of this thread? what you already have is (according to you) good enough. if you think it's not good enough, then you should get better speakers and a better subwoofer. there exist out there much, much better speakers than what you have linked there. that is a fact. of course they will cost more, but you generally get what you pay for.

it sounds like you want a cheap way to get better sound. well how about you just make do with what you have. the advantage there is that the total cost after shipping and taxes will total $0.00

there also exist out there software solutions that are pretty cheap. I personally use a software called breakaway:

http://www.claessonedwards.com/

Taliban Stan · Dec 14, 2017

Aztorian said:
Are audio cards really needed? Asking for a friend.

Not for "normal" use but they're critical if you're making music and recording audio.

General Lee · Dec 14, 2017

I have a Sound Blaster Z with the same Logitech Z-5400 set that I've used for more than a decade I think. The card has been well worth the money for the headphone amp, dolby live and virtual surround, but of course it's all subjective and depends on your needs. My headphones definitely improved with it.

Windows 10 fall update I think borked the drivers though as I've just noticed increasing audio delay in some apps, but it ought to be easily fixable.

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