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Wii emulator can do 720p HD

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
stuburns said:
I just don't understand how they are doing it without hacking the game in some way.
Game "talks" to the hardware. In case of emulation, the hardware is replaced by the emulator.
Game asks the Emulator(hardware) to render at 320x240, Emulator replies "we're rendering at 320x240" but internally sets the resolution to "640x480", without the game ever knowing the difference.

In theory it's as simple as changing screen-dimensions in the projection matrix, in reality it's not, but it can be made to work if you're stubborn enough.
 
Link1110 said:
ePSXe could do that well before they stopped making ps1 games. I remember buying Mega Man X6 the day it came out, taking it right home,, and playing it on emulator. I couldn't even beat that stupid thing with savestates.

There was a Gameboy Advance emulator before the Gameboy Advance was even on store shelves. Within the first month of the GBA hitting retail, it was running retail games at full speed.

Of course, "improvement" on the GBA depends on how you feel about Super Eagle filters.
 

jett

D-Member
gofreak said:
I've no real experience with emulators at all, but how can I get this to work (legally?)?

Install emulator?

Pop Wii game in dvd drive?

Play?

Simple as that? Will it recognise wii-mote input with a bluetooth adaptor?

(I'm thinking it's not quite like this..afterall, if it was, my Wii hardware would be pretty redundant. Which would suit me fine, but sounds too good to be true!).

From the emu website:

How do I get games for Dolphin?
Dolphin can currently only run "images", also known as ISO or GCM files, of Gamecube and Wii games, since a PC DVD drive cannot read the discs directly.

Seems you can't run from the disc.
 

StuBurns

Banned
Fafalada said:
Game "talks" to the hardware. In case of emulation, the hardware is replaced by the emulator.
Game asks the Emulator(hardware) to render at 320x240, Emulator replies "we're rendering at 320x240" but internally sets the resolution to "640x480", without the game ever knowing the difference.

In theory it's as simple as changing screen-dimensions in the projection matrix, in reality it's not, but it can be made to work if you're stubborn enough.

Okay, so what you're saying is, my understanding of where the native resolution is decided is wrong?

For Ico again, it renders in sub-HD not because the software is fixed at that resolution, but because the console 'tells' the software it can only accept that resolution. Where as with an emulator, it can 'tell' the game whatever it wants?

If so, that makes sense indeed.
 

Threi

notag
jett said:
That's a wiitarded complaint. Youtube only encodes videos up to 30fps. It's pretty clear the game is running with zero issues in that video.
But then wouldn't there be frame skippin-





wiitarded? Im not gunna take that from a guanstachio like yourself.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
jett said:
Seems you can't run from the disc.

So I'd have to into dodgier "downloading a iso backup of the games i own to play them on the emulator" route..which I kind of don't want to do. Even for games I own.

That's a shame..cos if it could read the disc from a PC drive, I'd have no qualms about using it with the games I have. AFAIK emulation of the hardware is legal, it's the coping and sharing of the ISOs thats illegal?
 

Oxymoron

Member
stuburns said:
Okay, so what you're saying is, my understanding of where the native resolution is decided is wrong?

For Ico again, it renders in sub-HD not because the software is fixed at that resolution, but because the console 'tells' the software it can only accept that resolution. Where as with an emulator, it can 'tell' the game whatever it wants?

If so, that makes sense indeed.

I think you probably got confused because the most commonly used emulators are for 2D systems. Polygons are inherently much different than sprites, and sprites cannot under any circustances be rendered at a higher resolution.
 

StuBurns

Banned
Oxymoron said:
I think you probably got confused because the most commonly used emulators are for 2D systems. Polygons are inherently much different than sprites, and sprites cannot under any circustances be rendered at a higher resolution.
No, I understood how altering the native resolution would work, I just didn't understand how it was doing that because I thought the native resolution of a game was fixed into the software, not decided by the hardware.
 

jett

D-Member
gofreak said:
So I'd have to into dodgier "downloading a iso backup of the games i own to play them on the emulator" route..which I kind of don't want to do. Even for games I own.

That's a shame..cos if it could read the disc from a PC drive, I'd have no qualms about using it with the games I have. AFAIK emulation of the hardware is legal, it's the coping and sharing of the ISOs thats illegal?

Technically you could make your own dumps, but it seems like too much hassle. And yeah it's acquiring the ISOs that is illegal, the emulator itself is legal.

Anyway, you can run off directly from the disc with PS1 and PS2 emulators.
 

Oxymoron

Member
stuburns said:
No, I understood how altering the native resolution would work, I just didn't understand how it was doing that because I thought the native resolution of a game was fixed into the software, not decided by the hardware.
Oh.

Why would you ever think that?
 

StuBurns

Banned
Oxymoron said:
Oh.

Why would you ever think that?
Because to enter 'HD' mode in PS2 games you have to do it from the game, not from the console. But thinking about it now, it that could be just because they didn't intend to support HD and progressive scan when they built the initial firmware.

Also because I now I don't see why PS1 BC on PS2 and PS2 BC on PS3 don't allow for higher native resolutions. It's stupid not to allow it if can be done. Also my lack of emulator experience no doubt didn't help.

I thank the people who explained it though.
 
stuburns said:
Because to enter 'HD' mode in PS2 games you have to do it from the game, not from the console. But thinking about it now, it that could be just because they didn't intend to support HD and progressive scan when they built the initial firmware.

Also because I now I don't see why PS1 BC on PS2 and PS2 BC on PS3 don't allow for higher native resolutions. It's stupid not to allow it if can be done. Also my lack of emulator experience no doubt didn't help.

I thank the people who explained it though.

PS2 can't be done because the graphics are provided by hardware in every version of the PS3, only the EE was ever emulated. For PS1 games? Yeah, there's no reason why Sony couldn't implement it, it'd be very simple to do, and makes a huge difference.

Whilst compatibility isn't guaranteed, its perfectly possible to increase the framerate of PS1 games as well.
 
Fafalada said:
Game "talks" to the hardware. In case of emulation, the hardware is replaced by the emulator.
Game asks the Emulator(hardware) to render at 320x240, Emulator replies "we're rendering at 320x240" but internally sets the resolution to "640x480", without the game ever knowing the difference.

In theory it's as simple as changing screen-dimensions in the projection matrix, in reality it's not, but it can be made to work if you're stubborn enough.

A more simplistic explanation:

3D is basically just a lot of graph points. Geometry, in other words. The emulator just interplotates those geometric points to be further apart. It's like switching resolutions in a PC game. The emulator has 3D data that looks like this:

642vbb.jpg


So the emulator says to your PC's 3D accelerated hardware, "Hey, scale this geometry up so it's larger in size." So it does:

2ealxtj.jpg


Same data, higher resolution.

The only cases where this doesn't apply is for emulators that display 3D data without passing through your PC's 3D acceleration (there are some PS1/N64/DS emulators that do this). In those cases, they are rendering 3D geometry to a 2D surface (a flat image), so increasing the resolution on those is just increasing the resolution of the 2D image and not the 3D geometry (usually resulting in a blurry mess).
 

Oxymoron

Member
stuburns said:
Because to enter 'HD' mode in PS2 games you have to do it from the game, not from the console. But thinking about it now, it that could be just because they didn't intend to support HD and progressive scan when they built the initial firmware.

Also because I now I don't see why PS1 BC on PS2 and PS2 BC on PS3 don't allow for higher native resolutions. It's stupid not to allow it if can be done. Also my lack of emulator experience no doubt didn't help.

I thank the people who explained it though.

For PS1 games, HD would look terrible because the textures are awful low-res things. The models would be high-res, and the AA would be higher, but the fundamental problem of the textures being butt-ugly would remain.

PS3 probably isn't able to emulate PS2 at HD resolutions, given that they haven't even managed to emulate the system properly so far.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
jett said:
Technically you could make your own dumps, but it seems like too much hassle. And yeah it's acquiring the ISOs that is illegal, the emulator itself is legal.

Anyway, you can run off directly from the disc with PS1 and PS2 emulators.

Cheers. Apparently a few PC drives can read Wii games, at least, whatever about GC games. But most can't.
 

StuBurns

Banned
brain_stew said:
PS2 can't be done because the graphics are provided by hardware in every version of the PS3, only the EE was ever emulated. For PS1 games? Yeah, there's no reason why Sony couldn't implement it, it'd be very simple to do, and makes a huge difference.
That makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

With PS1 games on PSN Sony should do what they can to make the games look better.
 
Sushen said:
It means pirates (a.k.a thieves), nothing more nothing less.

Eurgh, this stuff still exists on GAF? What's the difference playing your legally bought games on a PC to playing them on a Wii. Since piracy on Wii is so damn simple, I guess we should question everyone who's claimed to play a Wii game on the original hardware as well then, should we?
 
brain_stew said:
Eurgh, this stuff still exists on GAF? What's the difference playing your legally bought games on a PC to playing them on a Wii. Since piracy on Wii is so damn simple, I guess we should question everyone who's claimed to play a Wii game on the original hardware as well then, should we?

Or any system but PS3. Hmm, now GAF makes much more sense.
 

SpokkX

Member
jett said:
Hello McFly? UltraHLE for the N64 came out in January 1999, and ran games flawlessly. :p

Yes

I remeber it ran Zelda 64, Mario 64 and a lot of other games in 800x600 on simple Voodoo2 gfx cards with almost perfect results. It looked way better that running a n64 with composite in 320x240.

However there are always issues with emulators such as small bugs etc that ruin the feeling of the games.... unless the hardware emulatated is 15+ years old
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Sushen said:
It means pirates (a.k.a thieves), nothing more nothing less.

I'm neither a pirate nor a thief, but if I could pop my wii games into my PC and play them like this, that'd be cool. And seemingly that is legal (?)

Unfortunately it seems my DVD drive gets in the way.

If I could pop ALL my games (Wii, PS3, 360 etc.) into my PC and play them I'd be a very happy man! So much redundant hardware on my desk..same reason I've been a proponent of 'one console future' etc.
 

deadhorse32

Bad Art ™
stuburns said:
I know why some console games rendered at lower resolutions. I don't know how emulators change this because the native resolution is in the game, not the console or console OS.

Because those emulators are not using 1:1 emulation (They are not emulating every low level instruction of each CPUs). This is called HLE (High level emulation).

The game is not altered but when the PS2 ask the Graphics Synthesizer to draw a polygon, the call is translated into a DirectX/OpenGL api call.
 

M3d10n

Member
stuburns said:
Also because I now I don't see why PS1 BC on PS2 and PS2 BC on PS3 don't allow for higher native resolutions. It's stupid not to allow it if can be done. Also my lack of emulator experience no doubt didn't help.
In the PS2's case, the BC PS3s have the PS2 graphics chip processing the PS2 graphics with the RSX just copying the final image and upscaling it for display. Only the CPU, IO and storage are emulated. So there's no way to change the resolution there.

On the PS1 case... well, I need to explain the difference between full software emulation and HLE first:

Before UltraHLE, all emulators emulated all of the hardware entirely in software, by writing code that reproduced the low-level logic performed by the original hardware as accurately as possible. This means emulating the graphics hardware functions down to what it does to draw every single pixel. A system emulated like that can only run at it's native resolution, because it replicates the hardware accurately. It was fine for 16-bit and 2D arcade emulators.

When 3D consoles came into market, emulator authors hit a wall: it was simply impossible to emulate the specialized 3D hardware in those consoles at playable speed with the PCs available. It was just too slow, and they couldn't apply software-rendering tricks like Quake1's because that wasn't how the emulated hardware worked. This was specially bad with the N64, which had graphic features which were beyond anything software renderers could do in real time (mainly bilinear filtering and z-buffering).

In order to emulate those consoles at playable speeds, emulator authors took advantage of the fact that the 3D hardware in them were black boxes: the games simply send commands for drawing polygons, setting textures and turning effects on/off and the hardware took care of outputting the image to the TV. It was just a matter of translating these drawing commands into something a PC videocard can work with and have it do the rendering instead. This was called High Level Emulation: the emulator doesn't emulates the graphics chip down to every transistor anymore, it simply emulates the interface used by the system to talk to the graphics.

Now, back to the PS3... the PSX emulator on the PS3 seems to be entirely software based, for three reasons: 1) It's far easier to code it this way, 2) They have plenty of power for full speed software emulator and 3) HLE introduces a plethora of glitches and bugs which requires years of testing and tweaking and game-specific hacks to get rid of.
(There's actually a 4th reason: Sony bought Connectix' PSX emulator years ago, which was 100% software-based and had a massively high compatibility.)

That's why there's no texture smoothing option on the PS3. On the PS2 the graphics was emulated via HLE using the PS2 GPU, which was designed to make it easier to run PSX games and could enable bilinear filtering. But even that introduced glitches in some games.
 

StuBurns

Banned
M3d10n said:
In the PS2's case, the BC PS3s have the PS2 graphics chip processing the PS2 graphics with the RSX just copying the final image and upscaling it for display. Only the CPU, IO and storage are emulated. So there's no way to change the resolution there.

On the PS1 case... well, I need to explain the difference between full software emulation and HLE first...

That was a good read thank you.
 
Oxymoron said:
For PS1 games, HD would look terrible because the textures are awful low-res things. The models would be high-res, and the AA would be higher, but the fundamental problem of the textures being butt-ugly would remain.
That's why they have texture filtering.
omboost_shaders.png

Or shaders
img-220921ym2iu.jpg
 
This thread has really gotten me itching to play my Wii in HD... NOW.

x2vga2_appexamples_r2_c1.jpg


Can anyone vouch for the quality of this thing, i'm really interested but i'm just too unsure about the mechanics of upscaling the Wii's signal to jump in and buy it. Thinking of using it with my HDTV since it can supposedly upscale my Wii to 1080p.

http://www.x2vga.com/
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
-WindYoshi- said:
Can anyone vouch for the quality of this thing, i'm really interested but i'm just too unsure about the mechanics of upscaling the Wii's signal to jump in and buy it. Thinking of using it with my HDTV since it can supposedly upscale my Wii to 1080p.

http://www.x2vga.com/

Considering their About Us link doesn't work, I'm going to suggest staying far away.
 

DDayton

(more a nerd than a geek)
EatChildren said:
No, it really doesn't. You can see the crisper and clearer image, especially texture detail (eg: Link's chainmail) and backgrounds from a greater distance.

Okay, I've watched that little video a few times and I really don't see a difference between that and playing Brawl on my Wii.

Are there some nice, static comparison images somewhere?

brain_stew said:
The ignorance on GAF has towards emulation is dumbfounding. Its honestly the only way to make PS1 and N64 games playable again yet so many seem oblivious to it.
While I generally agree with your frustration, I must disagree on the "only way to make playable again" philosophy.
 
-WindYoshi- said:
This thread has really gotten me itching to play my Wii in HD... NOW.

x2vga2_appexamples_r2_c1.jpg


Can anyone vouch for the quality of this thing, i'm really interested but i'm just too unsure about the mechanics of upscaling the Wii's signal to jump in and buy it. Thinking of using it with my HDTV since it can supposedly upscale my Wii to 1080p.

http://www.x2vga.com/

I take it you haven't read a single post in this thread then? Upscaling =/= rendering at a higher resolution. Your TV already "upscales" all your games to 1080p as it is, otherwise they'd just be a small square in the middle of your TV.
 
VictimOfGrief said:
So it safe to say the next Nintendo system will do 720p (at least) and upscale the current lineup of Wii games?

In looking at the video it looks great, would definitely want to see more of this later on.
This video isn't upscaling, but actually rendering at a higher resolution. And that's not safe to assume, though it's possible. I don't think any system's backward compatibility has gone that far. I'm a bit surprised they didn't have PS1-on-PS3 do this.
stuburns said:
I understand how altering a native resolution works, I just don't understand how they are doing it without hacking the game in some way.
Here's the difference.

Console
Game: Play me.
Console: OK!
Game: Render at 640x480.
Console: OK!
Game: Here are the coordinates for drawing a polygon.
Console: Rendering it for a 640x480 area.

Emulator
Game: Play me.
Emulator pretending to be console: OK!
Game: Render at 640x480.
Emulator pretending to be console: Screw you.
Game: Here are the coordinates for drawing a polygon.
Emulator pretending to be console: Rendering it for a 1280x960 area.
 
brain_stew said:
I take it you haven't read a single post in this thread then? Upscaling =/= rendering at a higher resolution. Your TV already "upscales" all your games to 1080p as it is, otherwise they'd just be a small square in the middle of your TV.

Ok, but that does not explain what I want to know. Rendering or not, will the quality of the upscaled picture be comparable to if it was rendered by the console itself? That's the important part to me, I don't care where the picture is coming from.
 

StuBurns

Banned
JoshuaJSlone said:
Here's the difference.

Console
Game: Play me.
Console: OK!
Game: Render at 640x480.
Console: OK!
Game: Here are the coordinates for drawing a polygon.
Console: Rendering it for a 640x480 area.

Emulator
Game: Play me.
Emulator pretending to be console: OK!
Game: Render at 640x480.
Emulator pretending to be console: Screw you.
Game: Here are the coordinates for drawing a polygon.
Emulator pretending to be console: Rendering it for a 1280x960 area.

Yeah, I defiantly get it now, it would have made sense from start if I hadn't stupidly assumed the game decides the resolution not the console.
 

NotWii

Banned
stuburns said:
I don't know what this means, there's no way it's altering the native resolution, so it's just upscaling, so basically every TV connected to a Wii can do this also.
WRONG.
 
-WindYoshi- said:
This thread has really gotten me itching to play my Wii in HD... NOW.

x2vga2_appexamples_r2_c1.jpg


Can anyone vouch for the quality of this thing, i'm really interested but i'm just too unsure about the mechanics of upscaling the Wii's signal to jump in and buy it. Thinking of using it with my HDTV since it can supposedly upscale my Wii to 1080p.

http://www.x2vga.com/

I actually have one of these. I use it to pipe my ps3 and 360 to my monitor. It works, for the most part, as advertised. I have not been able to get it to properly display an interlaced signal(though I haven't tried, and it has little switches on it that are supposed to be for that), so don't send it one of those. It has 3 small problems. It, for some reason, introduces a black border on the left side of the screen in 720p, though it is not there in 1080p. It also hsa two small white lines above the image in 720p, each one about one pixel thick. Lastly, images suffer from minor distortion in the form of slight stretching in the top left corner but only during intensely bright scenes. IE:pure white or very close. Annoying, but it tends to only happen and be noticeable on bootup screens and menu screens, I almost never see it while playing a game.

But it is not an upscaler. It is a component-vga converter. Your monitor will be doing the scaling. This simply outputs a vga signal when taking in a component signal.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
-WindYoshi- said:
Ok, but that does not explain what I want to know. Rendering or not, will the quality of the upscaled picture be comparable to if it was rendered by the console itself? That's the important part to me, I don't care where the picture is coming from.

Short answer; no.

A high quality upscaling takes the rendered resolution and does the best job it can at making that resolution look good at a higher resolution. The end result might be a nicer looking image, but rendering of art assets are still at the native resolution. Simply put, you wont get extra detail.

RENDERING at a higher resolution will render more potential detail in a single image. Compared to upscaling at the same resolution, rendering would make textures look crisper and there would be less jaggies.

In the case of Brawl, take Link's chainmail as an example; at a higher RENDERED resolution you'd be able to see more detail in the chainmail at a more zoomed out viewing distance, as the resolution is higher, whereas an upscaling wont.

EDIT: Think of it like taking two screenshots of a game. The first screenshot is a low resolution. The second screenshot is a high resolution. Now, stretch the first screenshot so that the image size is the same as the second screenshot. Even those both images are the same 'size', the actual capturing of the image is different. The first screenshot is now upscaled to the size of the second screenshot, but the second screenshot still has more detail as everything was rendered at that resolution.
 

Sectus

Member
stuburns said:
This is where we disagree. In the example I gave, Ico, it isn't outputting in some insanely high resolution but the PS2 is making it sub-SD, because why would it? That is the native resolution of the software itself.

In games with HD mode on PS2 you have to activate it in the game, not the console.
You're *disagreeing* with how hardware works?
 
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