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First Halo 4 GI information (Spartan OPs, multi, etc) [Update: Campaign/More Details]

EvB

Member
We'll see how this all works, but while I'm still wary of an "Upgraded" spartan in multiplayer, the idea of an Upgraded spartan taking on co-op missions gets me all hot and botherd. Kind of like Mass Effect 3 with less OMG grind repetition. I think the connection between Spartan ops and "Holo training" is most interesting to me.

I'd still prefer a plotline involving seperate UNSC and or ONI spartan forces duking it out over something though, I think that might have more interesting effects on the singleplayer.

I imagine at some point the Infinity will turn up over requiem and send some Spartan 4's to back you up for some crazy end of game epic fight.

Would tie in the Spartan Ops and the training they are doing, possibly whilst out and about in deep space looking for chief.


If they are looking at all
 

zethren

Banned
Okay, I'll get around to knocking out this whole thread throughout the rest of the day. Just got my GI issue in the mail just now and I'm in the process of reading the Halo 4 cover story.

I LOVE what I read about the campaign, but I don't have much of an opinion on the multiplayer aspect just yet as I haven't gotten to much of it in the article at my time of posting this. I will say that judging by the reactions on the first few pages I'm a bit nervous, but I'm hoping Frankie will be in here (if he hasn't already) to calm some nerves and what not.

Really really happy to see some new screens and read some first hand impressions. I was a little disappointed that the Covenant are making a return as an enemy in the campaign, but hearing that there will be a whole new enemy with whole new (and numerous) enemy classes/weapons/etc eases that concern. Sounds great.

*continues reading*

Edit:

Okay, Spartan Ops sounds amazing.
 

Satchel

Banned
Personally, on the whole FXAA thing, I hope it does add a 'softness' to the image.

A lot of PS3 titles have it and I love it. The Ratchet games apply it magically.

Would give mah Halo a really nice 'real' look imo. Can't believe the level of detail.

Can't believe they achieve this look while still keeping the Halo feature set (unless 4 player split is gone as well as theatre mode).

Hopefully Halo doesn't become a corridoor shooter in order to achieve these gorgeous visuals.
 

EvB

Member
FXAA isn't just a blur filter across the whole image, it tries to just grab the jaggy edges. Unfortunately it can get textures a little too, but the overall effect is a positive one.

Certainly better than another jaggy Halo game.
Quite a few console games have used it and they just look smooth and silky.
 

DarkChild

Banned
Personally, on the whole FXAA thing, I hope it does add a 'softness' to the image.

A lot of PS3 titles have it and I love it. The Ratchet games apply it magically.

Would give mah Halo a really nice 'real' look imo. Can't believe the level of detail.

Can't believe they achieve this look while still keeping the Halo feature set (unless 4 player split is gone as well as theatre mode).

Hopefully Halo doesn't become a corridoor shooter in order to achieve these gorgeous visuals.
Ratche games are sub hd and new FXAA are very sharp, no blurriness. You can choose quality if you want actually.
 

Petrichor

Member
in game assault rifle in the background looks great. Doesn't seem to be much aliasing as the character breathes.

edit: judging by the crosshairs, it also looks like bloom is back for the assault rifle :(
 
what is crazy is that the music sounds haloish. Sounds like something marty would do so it really works. Music was one area I worried about with 343i. I can safely say not anymore.
 

Jac_Solar

Member
Why do devs keep trying to design multiplayer gameplay in such a way that first time players and veterans are on equal footing, competitively?

They keep trying to balance their games so that all players, regardless of how much they've played or how little they've played, are equally good at MP fighting..

What happened to MP being about practicing, honing your skills, and so forth? The satisfaction you get from finally achieving victory after practicing for a very long time is at the very core of what gaming is all about.

Without that element, MP is totally and absolutely pointless. And gaming seems to be moving toward that, with ridiculous restrictions and even more ridiciulous level up bonus abilities you can buy as DLC.
 
He's still at Bungie.

So was the decision to not have him do Halo 4 his, or Microsofts?

Also this audio thing, it's a real vidoc? So it means not another vidoc for a while?

Still hoping for some SP footage in a vidoc before E3.

Edit: seems like the first two vidocs were about a month apart. Was Reach's vidoc pace similar? If so, maybe we can expect another sometime in early May.
 

Anti 007

Neo Member
Why do devs keep trying to design multiplayer gameplay in such a way that first time players and veterans are on equal footing, competitively?

They keep trying to balance their games so that all players, regardless of how much they've played or how little they've played, are equally good at MP fighting..

What happened to MP being about practicing, honing your skills, and so forth? The satisfaction you get from finally achieving victory after practicing for a very long time is at the very core of what gaming is all about.
I completely agree. I feel like if they spent time making a good Ranked MM system that it would have just as good an effect on new players without hampering the veterans.
 
What happened to MP being about practicing, honing your skills, and so forth? The satisfaction you get from finally achieving victory after practicing for a very long time is at the very core of what gaming is all about.
There's a delicate balancing act you have to pull so that new players don't get overly frustrated when they dip their feet into the competitive arena. Not everybody has that developed a sense of competition. If you want to grow the audience and keep those playlist hoppers filled to the brim with all levels of players you have to make it as fair, fun and approachable a time as possible, even when you lose.

That and some people are just looking to have a fun time with friends against other players instead of AI, and who will most likely never spend a "very long time honing their skills".

Thats my take anyway.
 

Anti 007

Neo Member
As I said above I feel like if they create a Ranked MM system that works it will both attract the skilled players and match the new players against other noobs.

This also takes the skilled players out of the social playlists.
 

DopeyFish

Not bitter, just unsweetened
There's a delicate balancing act you have to pull so that new players don't get overly frustrated when they dip their feet into the competitive arena. Not everybody has that developed a sense of competition. If you want to grow the audience and keep those playlist hoppers filled to the brim with all levels of players you have to make it as fair, fun and approachable a time as possible, even when you lose.

That and some people are just looking to have a fun time with friends against other players instead of AI, and who will most likely never spend a "very long time honing their skills".

Thats my take anyway.

The greatest multiplayer game of all time was also the most frustrating (counter-strike)

But it was accessible *gasp* just like halo 2.

But still you are equating having fun to shitting on basic game design principles... Last time I checked, game mechanic is the most important function to enjoyability, the second is challenge.

It's equivalent to taking the rules of checkers and applying them to chess
 
But still you are equating having fun to shitting on basic game design principles...
Sure. Whatever.

My point is, for flagship AAA games like Halo the ultra competitive types don't make up the entirety of their audience and when looking to broaden your userbase you don't necessarily look to Counterstrike for inspiration. I can't speak for 343 or Bungie on this though of course.
 
FXAA isn't just a blur filter across the whole image, it tries to just grab the jaggy edges. Unfortunately it can get textures a little too, but the overall effect is a positive one.

Certainly better than another jaggy Halo game.
Quite a few console games have used it and they just look smooth and silky.

Here is the potential problem with FXAA...which of these images look better (BF3 PC)?

http://hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTMyMDIwMzk5MHdnZ0RxV0diM2xfN18zX2wucG5n

Most people probably think the MSAA version looks better, even though it has more jaggies (MSAA doesn't work well with deferred rendering as in BF3)

But if you just saw the FXAA image alone, you'd probably never notice a problem. So, I guess what we dont know wont hurt us.
 

TUROK

Member
The greatest multiplayer game of all time was also the most frustrating (counter-strike)

But it was accessible *gasp* just like halo 2.

But still you are equating having fun to shitting on basic game design principles... Last time I checked, game mechanic is the most important function to enjoyability, the second is challenge.

It's equivalent to taking the rules of checkers and applying them to chess
Counter-Strike, accessible? That is fucking hilarious. If you didn't know what you are doing going in, you are pretty much guaranteed to get your ass handed to you.

Just because they're making it so newer players won't feel as lost doesn't mean there isn't any incentive to practicing and familiarizing yourself with the game.
 

DopeyFish

Not bitter, just unsweetened
Sure. Whatever.

My point is, for flagship AAA games like Halo the ultra competitive types don't make up the entirety of their audience and when looking to broaden your userbase you don't necessarily look to Counterstrike for inspiration. I can't speak for 343 or Bungie on this though of course.

No you look to the core fundamentals of what made your game good in the first place

Not "hey lets focus group the fuck out of the game until its an unappealing piece of shit just in the hopes that the 20 non gamers can find their way to an objective"

Competitiveness is a side effect of the quality of a game, by the way. Not its accessibility.

And to your point, you don't have one.
 

Yo Gotti

Banned
Halo is at it's best when it's large scale battles of 6x6 + on a large open map. IMO anyway.

Team slayer matches are good fun, rumble pit is great for honing your skills, but they're just shooting practice for the epic capture the flag and objective matches coming next.

1 flag CTF or Assault on Headlong
2 flag CTF on Coagulation or Containment
Pretty much any gametype on Ivory Tower or Lockout

Halo MP at it's finest. Damn I miss Halo 2.

Halo 3 had it's maps too, but they just aren't as memorable.. Last Resort, Sandtrap & Guardian are pretty much the only maps I remember having good times on from that game.
 
No you look to the core fundamentals of what made your game good in the first place
Lack of decent competition in the console space, a sprawling campaign with excellent enemy AI and sandbox replayability, split-screen co-op and oh yeah, versus modes centered around a single weapon? OK.

I don't know why they don't just press copy/paste on their game making machine.
 

DopeyFish

Not bitter, just unsweetened
Lack of decent competition in the console space, a sprawling campaign with excellent enemy AI and sandbox replayability, split-screen co-op and oh yeah, versus modes centered around a single weapon? OK.

I don't know why they don't just press copy/paste on their game making machine.

None of those has a single thing to do with the game. That's scope and context but not the mechanical layer.
 

Yo Gotti

Banned
Lack of decent competition in the console space, a sprawling campaign with excellent enemy AI and sandbox replayability, split-screen co-op and oh yeah, versus modes centered around a single weapon? OK.

I don't know why they don't just press copy/paste on their game making machine.

You talk like Halo 2 & 3 weren't centered around the Battle Rifle, and like Reach wasn't centered around the BMR. It's all the same.

That's one thing Halo 1 got right, the Pistol was a great standard like the BMR, but the other weapons were formidable if you used them to your tactical advantage. If you got caught slipping by someone with a plasma pistol/rifle, shotgun or AR, you've got the be extremely quick and accurate or else your dead. Halo 2 did this pretty well with the Battle Rifle and Dual Wielding. Where a BR user could come out on top in most situations, but if you let a dual wielder get too close or take you by surprise, you're toast. It made a skilled player play more carefully and tactically, and casuals could come in and grab their favorite combination, spray and pray and get some lucky kills.

I think Bungie lost their way trying to balance everything to be "fair". Every weapon needs its own inherent strengths and advantages. If you pick up a plasma rifle and end up in a long range battle with a guy with a BMR, you should lose. You are at a tactical disadvantage that you shouldn't have put yourself in in the first place. Instead of letting people make their own tactical decisions, Bungie tried to make every weapon viable for every situation. It killed the fun of the game, and made it so that it was pointless to go into battle without a BMR or Battle Rifle.
 
Here is the potential problem with FXAA...which of these images look better (BF3 PC)?

http://hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTMyMDIwMzk5MHdnZ0RxV0diM2xfN18zX2wucG5n

Most people probably think the MSAA version looks better, even though it has more jaggies (MSAA doesn't work well with deferred rendering as in BF3)

But if you just saw the FXAA image alone, you'd probably never notice a problem. So, I guess what we dont know wont hurt us.

Msaa picture is clearly better and i dont have my contact lenses in.
Pillar left you can clearly see blurring at the cars.

But the best cause i can make now that FXAA destroys detail is follow the lightpoles and you can clearly see more lightpoles in the distand with MSAA because they aren't blurred out.
I can clearly see the last 3 lightpoles in the msaa screen but i have to focus hard on the last 3 in the FXAA screen.

But i can see your point if i didn''t know what too look for i wouldn't notice but that the same with everything from bad FPS to Tearing..
 

Jac_Solar

Member
Msaa picture is clearly better and i dont have my contact lenses in.
Pillar left you can clearly see blurring at the cars.

But the best cause i can make now that FXAA destroys detail is follow the lightpoles and you can clearly see more lightpoles in the distand with MSAA because they aren't blurred out.
I can clearly see the last 3 lightpoles in the msaa screen but i have to focus hard on the last 3 in the FXAA screen.

But i can see your point if i didn''t know what too look for i wouldn't notice but that the same with everything from bad FPS to Tearing..

The MSAA pic has *a lot* of jaggies and the FXAA is just better. I haven't tried that comparison in a game, I think, so I don't know how it'd look in motion/playing, but I think that the MSAA with its extreme sharpness would be worse than FXAA.

By the way; I'm not that into/familiar with the various aliasing modes/techniques/renders, but thought I'd chime in.
 

Plywood

NeoGAF's smiling token!
My strong guess is they are building on Reach engine unless somebody from 343i specifically says they arent which i doubt will ever happen.
IIRC it was Frankie that stated that it was the Reach engine but that by the time we see H4 all the code will have been rewritten.
 

TEH-CJ

Banned
Best graphics ever this gen,I call it spade for spade. Pretty excited for this..

This really shows the 360 gpu pulling ahead. Just wish more games would make use of that glories gpu.
 

Petrichor

Member
You talk like Halo 2 & 3 weren't centered around the Battle Rifle, and like Reach wasn't centered around the BMR. It's all the same.

That's one thing Halo 1 got right, the Pistol was a great standard like the BMR, but the other weapons were formidable if you used them to your tactical advantage. If you got caught slipping by someone with a plasma pistol/rifle, shotgun or AR, you've got the be extremely quick and accurate or else your dead. Halo 2 did this pretty well with the Battle Rifle and Dual Wielding. Where a BR user could come out on top in most situations, but if you let a dual wielder get too close or take you by surprise, you're toast. It made a skilled player play more carefully and tactically, and casuals could come in and grab their favorite combination, spray and pray and get some lucky kills.

I think Bungie lost their way trying to balance everything to be "fair". Every weapon needs its own inherent strengths and advantages. If you pick up a plasma rifle and end up in a long range battle with a guy with a BMR, you should lose. You are at a tactical disadvantage that you shouldn't have put yourself in in the first place. Instead of letting people make their own tactical decisions, Bungie tried to make every weapon viable for every situation. It killed the fun of the game, and made it so that it was pointless to go into battle without a BMR or Battle Rifle.

The pistol wasn't as dominant over other weapons as the BR or DMR are in subsequent games primarily because Halo 1 had the highest movement speed. If you got in quick with an AR, plasma pistol, or shotgun in Halo 1 you could easily outgun someone with the magnum. That's why it's still the most balanced sandbox imo.
 
Here is the potential problem with FXAA...which of these images look better (BF3 PC)?

http://hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTMyMDIwMzk5MHdnZ0RxV0diM2xfN18zX2wucG5n

Most people probably think the MSAA version looks better, even though it has more jaggies (MSAA doesn't work well with deferred rendering as in BF3)

But if you just saw the FXAA image alone, you'd probably never notice a problem. So, I guess what we dont know wont hurt us.

The problem is, we don't know what version of FXAA 343i is using. The latest versions don't have the blurring problem and even have a sharpening step. The algorithm is also highly customisable. One thing's for sure, any form of FXAA is, in most cases, better than no AA.
 
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