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The Lady Sidekick - Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

G

Garrett Hawke

Member
https://youtu.be/4BrKqEtG-2w
This episode examines how female sidekicks and companions in games are often designed to function as glorified gatekeepers, helpless burdens, and ego boosters, a pattern that works to reinforce oppressive notions about women as the ones in need of protection and men as the ones in control, who take action and do the protecting.

We then feature some games with relationships that subvert traditional power fantasy mechanics, putting players on something closer to equal footing with their AI companions as they offer examples of what real communication, compromise, and mutual support in games might look like.
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Transcript here https://feministfrequency.com/video/the-lady-sidekick/

This is the last Tropes vs. Women episode :(
 
G

Garrett Hawke

Member
Burbeting said:
Last episode in the video games series, all last episode overall :(?

Need to watch this soon. Anita has done some great work, even if all of her examples don't always seem to fit on the tropes mentioned.
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I think it's the end of Tropes vs. Women in Video Games, which will be a shame as afaik there isn't anyone else doing the same thing.
 
S

Shredderi

Member
It's hard to not grow up with pretty strong "men are the protectors and fighters" mentality when your country has a mandatory army training period for the male populace but not female populace(Finland). Sure, I'm growing/grown out of it because of internet and exposure to different ideas and fallacies but I don't actually blame myself for initially having that mentality. Solid video.
 
M

mclem

Member
Curious what the subversive titles are. My first thought was Portal 2, but then it struck me that I wasn't sure if it didn't count because Chell is female, or if it's generally taken as the player placing themselves in the role.
 
G

Garrett Hawke

Member
mclem said:
Curious what the subversive titles are. My first thought was Portal 2, but then it struck me that I wasn't sure if it didn't count because Chell is female, or if it's generally taken as the player placing themselves in the role.
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Tess and Riley from TLOU, an indie game called One Night Stand, Gears 4, and The Last Guardian.
 
P

parabolee

Member
Do not agree that Bioshock is intentionally suggesting that "oppressed people are as bad as their oppressors and that the truth is always somewhere in the middle" at all!

The narrative of Bioshock instead is instead teaching a much more valid lesson, which is "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster.".

That lesson is a very valid one and the history of the oppressed falling into the trap of becoming another oppressor is a long and tragic one. In my opinion, it does not suggest that therefore the oppressed is as bad as the oppressor or that the truth is in the middle!

I like Anita, but she often takes the absolute most negative interpretation of something and then criticizes it. Despite the fact that the interpretation she is taken has often already been disputed. And when she does this she feeds her detractors with some forms of valid criticism.

Ken Levine explaining this critique for the record -

http://www.craveonline.com/entertai...efends-bioshock-infinites-controversial-scene
 
G

Garrett Hawke

Member
parabolee said:
Do not agree that Bioshock is intentionally suggesting that "oppressed people are as bad as their oppressors and that the truth is always somewhere in the middle" at all!

The narrative of Bioshock instead is instead teaching a much more valid lesson, which is "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster.".

That lesson is a very valid one and the history of the oppressed falling into the trap of becoming another oppressor is a long and tragic one. In my opinion, it does not suggest that therefore the oppressed is as bad as the oppressor or that the truth is in the middle!

I like Anita, but she often takes the absolute most negative interpretation of something and then criticizes it. Despite the fact that the interpretation she is taken has often already been disputed. And when she does this she feeds her detractors with some forms of valid criticism.

Ken Levine explaining this critique for the record -

http://www.craveonline.com/entertai...efends-bioshock-infinites-controversial-scene
Click to expand...
I agree with her interpretation though, as do many others. I don't really care what Ken has to say about it, that might have been his intention but it's not how it comes across at all in my opinion.
 
E

etrain911

Member
Corpsepyre said:
Wasn't there a proper reason given as to why Ellie can't cross water in TLOU?
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She never learned to swim. But still, it is a fair point that they make, albeit Ellie does become a badass in her own right and a lot of what she does aside from the water carries both power and autonomy. I am hoping that the situation reverses in the Last of Us Part 2 and Joel becomes the sidekick.
 
B

benicillin

Banned
Corpsepyre said:
Wasn't there a proper reason given as to why Ellie can't cross water in TLOU?
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She never learned how to swim. Presumably none of the kids would because they can't leave quarantine zones.

Another good video by Anita that offers a totally basic view of a very general idea but will somehow still be bandied about as if it's extreme in any way.
 
PaulBizkit

PaulBizkit

Member
"Equal footing with the AI partner"

C'mon, making a DECENT AI partner is difficult as fuck. It's either useless like RE partners or Bioshock Infinite (ammo storage/healing and that's it) or frag-stealers like in COD...

KH partners are the only ones that barely make the cut... except for Donald, who takes usually 3 worlds to get tough and to stop dying every 2 minutes...
 
P

parabolee

Member
Garrett Hawke said:
I agree with her interpretation though, as do many others. I don't really care what Ken has to say about it, that might have been his intention but it's not how it comes across at all in my opinion.
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But she ignores that the creator actually clarified his intent and therefore her interpretation is incorrect. It would be fair for her to state that she takes an issue with the fact that the creators intent came through poorly and can be read as what she stated. But instead, she stated that is what the game was saying. Which is misleading as it was not, and the creator has explained that fact. Something she either intentionally ignores or did not do any research before making inflammatory statements.

And I think it is very important for art to note that the oppressed too often becomes the oppressor. Something WELL worth warning against. Glorifying those that fight oppression with more oppression does nothing to solve that issue. Look at Isreal, Castro, Stalin. To name a few.

As Levine said, he could have made Daisy some idealistic hero. But false heroes that lead people to oppression based on idealism was part of the point of the whole series. It would be a little hypocritical to pretend only the left wing ideals are pure. Especially when history hs shown they are just as open to being subverted by the "end justifies the means" argument into more horrors.

This is why Ken Levine is an artist and Anita is a critic

Also the lack of "meaningful interaction" with Elizabeth in the gameplay is a side effect of the gameplay design, nothing to do with sexism. There is no meaningful interaction with any character in Bioshock Infinite's gameplay. I can agree with Resident Evil 4 and Ico. But calling out The Last of Us water sections also seems a stretch.

Also as someone that considers myself a feminist, I have to disagree with the idea that acknowledging men and women are different is sexist. Equal and different are not contradictory. Men ARE more likely to kill and be aggressors. That is a fact and not one that is a negative stereotype towards women I may add. Far too often Anita's valid points are weakened by the exaggerating lesser (or none existing) issues. The damsel in distress trope is most certainly an issue, men being more likely to be the violent aggressor is not.
 
Corpsepyre

Corpsepyre

Banned
I wonder what people will say about the upcoming GoW, granted it's not a female AI Kid with Kratos. But still. Will be interesting.
 
KonradLaw

KonradLaw

Member
Well..when opressed start violent revolution they often end up as bad as the thing they fought against. Which is why fathers and mothers of revolution need to be murdered, so that normal people can take over them.
 
F

Fliesen

Member
Watching the video right now, and there's no doubt in my mind that - when the subtitles mistakenly spell Alyx Vance's first name as "Alex" - people will take it as their jumping off point for their 'fake gamer', 'bad video', 'hasn't even done her research' rant.
 
E

EDarkness

Member
I'm usually down with what she's saying, but in this video, I think what she's talking about is true for men, women, dogs, cats, robots, etc. that are "helper" characters. Games hardly ever do anything interesting with them and more often than not they're used to either impede progress or as gatekeepers in some form. I think this is one of those video game elements that really doesn't discriminate.
 
S

SliceSabre

Banned
I kinda agree with most of what she said except the Ellie part. I don't feel like Ellie's inability to swim is somehow a strike against her agency or something. I mean to me it kinda made sense considering this a post apocalyptic world and she was born after shit went to hell plus not to mention not knowing how to swim isn't overly weird.
 
B

Betty

Banned
PaulBizkit said:
"Equal footing with the AI partner"

C'mon, making a DECENT AI partner is difficult as fuck. It's either useless like RE partners or Bioshock Infinite (ammo storage/healing and that's it) or frag-stealers like in COD...

KH partners are the only ones that barely make the cut... except for Donald, who takes usually 3 worlds to get tough and to stop dying every 2 minutes...
Click to expand...

Alex Vance from HL2 and the Uncharted/Last of Us games do it right I think.
 
G

Garrett Hawke

Member
parabolee said:
But she ignores that the creator actually clarified his intent and therefore her interpretation is incorrect.
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Interpretations cannot be incorrect. This interpretation is well documented by many critics using evidence from the game, it doesn't matter that Ken disagrees with it.

For example, you could propose an interpretation that Pokemon Sun is actually an allegory for communism, and then we would decide whether or not we think that interpretation is plausible given the evidence in the game. The creators intentions don't matter - the creator could be saying something different than what the game says. It is unlikely that Ken's thoughts translated 1:1 into what the game is saying.
This is why Ken Levine is an artist and Anita is a critic
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I don't even know what this is supposed to mean except that you really like Ken Levine.
 
E

Enduin

No bald cap? Lies!
Solid video as usual. Sad to see the series go even though the down time between each was always pretty long. It was always at the very least thought provoking and good at rooting out morons.

I'm trying to think of one but I can't remember a single game with a female protagonist and a male sidekick. I'm sure there's one somewhere, but I'm drawing a blank. Only one I can think of right now is Portal 2 in the most technical of ways, and even that is temporary.
 
F

Fliesen

Member
EDarkness said:
I'm usually down with what she's saying, but in this video, I think what she's talking about is true for men, women, dogs, cats, robots, etc. that are "helper" characters. Games hardly ever do anything interesting with them and more often than not they're used to either impede progress or as gatekeepers in some form. I think this is one of those video game elements that really doesn't discriminate.
Click to expand...

But i feel like, more often than not, these kinds of "helper characters" are women / girls.

Like the "burden" sidekick - Let's just look at some of gaming's most popular / beloved franchises. When they have a character like that, it tends to be a girl, doesn't it?
Zelda: In both Wind Waker and Ocarina, the burden sidekick is a little girl.
Resident Evil - i only recall helpless girls.
Ico - girl
Metal Gear Solid 2 - little girl
TLou - little girl
Golden Eye - woman

I personally am having a hard time to find many games with "defenseless burdens you need to escort that aren't either women or little girls"

As with every of Anita's videos - it's never the claim that there are NO strong female protagonists, that there are NO male damsels, that there are NO sexualized male characters. It's just that these tropes are much more regularly applied to women.
 
S

SomTervo

Member
Great video.

I'm working on something ATM which could very easily fall into this trap. I'm trying my best to ensure that the 'female sidekick' has just as much autonomy as the male counterpart, be it in terms of plot, characterisation, dialogue, gameplay. It's not easy to control when a large group of people are working on story concepts and the script is repeatedly gutted and rehashed. Fingers crossed.

Are there any examples of games where we play a woman with a male sidekick? Edit: she got one/some in near the end.

Really glad these videos have become more even-handed than they used to be.
 
B

Brawly Likes to Brawl

Member
Enduin said:
Solid video as usual. Sad to see the series go even though the down time between each was always pretty long. It was always at the very least thought provoking and good at rooting out morons.

I'm trying to think of one but I can't remember a single game with a female protagonist and a male sidekick. I'm sure there's one somewhere, but I'm drawing a blank. Only one I can think of right now is Portal 2 in the most technical of ways, and even that is temporary.
Click to expand...

Trails in the Sky First Chapter and Beyond Good & Evil.

Edit: I suppose Velvet and Laphicet in Tales of Berseria count too.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Garrett Hawke said:
I agree with her interpretation though, as do many others. I don't really care what Ken has to say about it, that might have been his intention but it's not how it comes across at all in my opinion.
Click to expand...
The history of the world (and especially that time period, which contained the Russian Revolution) is filled with violent revolutionaries who take power in the name of good causes and then proceed to do horrible things with it. I didn't see it at all as a "truth is in the middle" thing, I saw it as coming from the exact same place that Animal Farm did- warning that many don't seek to rectify power structures, but instead desire to usurp them for their own use.
 
H

hank_tree

Member
parabolee said:
But she ignores that the creator actually clarified his intent and therefore her interpretation is incorrect. It would be fair for her to state that she takes an issue with the fact that the creators intent came through poorly and can be read as what she stated. But instead, she stated that is what the game was saying. Which is misleading as it was not, and the creator has explained that fact. Something she either intentionally ignores or did not do any research before making inflammatory statements.
Click to expand...

As long as you can back up your points using the work itself, then that interpretation of that work is valid even if it doesn't align with the author's intent.
 
G

GurgleBot20

Member
kirblar said:
The history of the world (and especially that time period, which contained the Russian Revolution) is filled with violent revolutionaries who take power in the name of good causes and then proceed to do horrible things with it. I didn't see it at all as a "truth is in the middle" thing, I saw it as coming from the exact same place that Animal Farm did- warning that many don't seek to rectify power structures, but instead desire to usurp them for their own use.
Click to expand...

Sure, but using US race relations to make that point dangerously undermines actual historical civil rights movements.
 
G

Garrett Hawke

Member
kirblar said:
The history of the world (and especially that time period, which contained the Russian Revolution) is filled with violent revolutionaries who take power in the name of good causes and then proceed to do horrible things with it. I didn't see it at all as a "truth is in the middle" thing, I saw it as coming from the exact same place that Animal Farm did- warning that many don't seek to rectify power structures, but instead desire to usurp them for their own use.
Click to expand...

there are also examples of violent revolutionaries who did not succumb to this, though.
 
E

Enduin

No bald cap? Lies!
Brawly Likes to Brawl said:
Trails in the Sky First Chapter and Beyond Good & Evil.

Edit: I suppose Velvet and Laphicet in Tales of Berseria count too.
Click to expand...

Fuck me. How could I forget BG&E.

Trails is more co leads though, even if Estelle is the overall main character. But great game nonetheless. I think JRPGs are harder to compare to action adventure which this mostly focuses on since the gameplay dynamics are a lot different. Laphicet and Joshua aren't helpers but active members. Same for the reverse with female companions, they usually are full and active members in all aspects of the game. Unless you're Persona series and only girls can be the dedicated noncombatant helper team member.
 
C

CryptiK

Member
This is a general thing with AI sidekicks though? There really never is meaningful interaction and they generally are tools. Its not exclusive to women at all.
 
K

Korigama

Member
Enduin said:
Fuck me. How could I forget BG&E.

Trails is more co leads though, even if Estelle is the overall main character. But great game nonetheless. I think JRPGs are harder to compare to action adventure which this mostly focuses on since the gameplay dynamics are a lot different. Laphicet and Joshua aren't helpers but active members. Same for the reverse with female companions, they usually are full and active members in all aspects of the game. Unless you're Persona series and only girls can be the dedicated noncombatant helper team member.
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Teddie was the first such character in Persona 4 before Rise took over in that capacity.

And though the story revolves around both Estelle and Joshua, it is Estelle who remains the overall main character in FC and SC.
 
K

kirblar

Member
GurgleBot20 said:
Sure, but using US race relations to make that point dangerously undermines actual historical civil rights movements.
Click to expand...
I wonder how much of this is due to streams crossing w/ the game tackling multiple things at once. I felt the Daisy v Evil Corporation plotline was strongly echoing both the Russian Revolution and US labor struggles of the era, much moreso than race relations, even though the game was also targeting white supremacy and the use of religion in US history. So even though Daisy was black, I didn't see the plotline as an intended commentary on race relations, but I can understand how someone could take it that way.
 
E

Enduin

No bald cap? Lies!
Korigama said:
Teddie was the first such character in Persona 4 before Rise took over in that capacity.
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True, but he was just that a stand-in. Same as Morgana. The actual real deal is a feeble girl, though Rise was much less so than Fuuka and Futaba.

I'm just saying that's the closest I can think of off the top of my head of similar character treatment as the sidekick outlined here in the JRPG genre compared to the typical Action Adventure games this is most prevalent in.
 
F

FrontalMonk

Banned
parabolee said:
But she ignores that the creator actually clarified his intent and therefore her interpretation is incorrect.
Click to expand...

Nnnnnope. Not even close.

Familiarize yourself with the concept of "Death of the Author" before you tell people that authorial intent matters more, please. :(
 
F

Fliesen

Member
CryptiK said:
This is a general thing with AI sidekicks though? There really never is meaningful interaction and they generally are tools. Its not exclusive to women at all.
Click to expand...

... is not what anyone said. Please try not to argue against straw men.

However, more often than not, these kinds of "useless AI sidekicks" - happen to be women.
 
C

Crocodile

Member
I don't really have much to add other than this was a good video. Every "huh....but about _____" question I had she eventually got around to answering.

Wait is this really the last Tropes vs. Women episode video? Where was this announced? Why? Is she moving on to bigger things or did the "terrorists" win?

CryptiK said:
This is a general thing with AI sidekicks though? There really never is meaningful interaction and they generally are tools. Its not exclusive to women at all.
Click to expand...

She addresses this in the video. It's who these AI sidekick most often tend to be and how they are portrayed/implemented that is the issue.
 
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