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VGLeaks Durango specs: x64 8-core CPU @1.6GHz, 8GB DDR3 + 32MB ESRAM, 50GB 6x BD...

C

Can Crusher

Banned
Why would anyone mature enough stop listening to a guy because he thinks overweight people aren't handicapped?

Good lord. Don't consume any type of media made by anyone that has anything of worth to say then.

If you think his opinion is wrong, fine. But it's always healthy to hear about shit we don't like hearing because somehow it relates to us.
 
gaming_noob

gaming_noob

Member
Can Crusher said:
Why would anyone mature enough stop listening to a guy because he thinks overweight people aren't handicapped?

Good lord. Don't consume any type of media made by anyone that has anything of worth to say then.

If you think his opinion is wrong, fine. But it's always healthy to hear about shit we don't like hearing because somehow it relates to us.
Click to expand...

Pardon me but I thought a Major Nelson podcast would focus more about videogames. I don't need to listen to his opinion about anything else.
 
C

Can Crusher

Banned
gaming_noob said:
Pardon me but I thought a Major Nelson podcast would focus more about videogames. I don't need to listen to his opinion about anything else.
Click to expand...

Yeah god forbid him from voicing his opinion on a situation that he was talking about. It's not devoid of context.

Also, you probably didn't even follow him, so save it for the blind.
 
gaming_noob

gaming_noob

Member
Can Crusher said:
Yeah god forbid him from voicing his opinion on a situation that he was talking about. It's not devoid of context.

Also, you probably didn't even follow him, so save it for the blind.
Click to expand...

I didn't know a stranger voicing their opinion about another stranger's podcast would bother you so much. How about we calm down, alright?
 
I

iMax

Member
Can Crusher said:
Why would anyone mature enough stop listening to a guy because he thinks overweight people aren't handicapped?

Good lord. Don't consume any type of media made by anyone that has anything of worth to say then.

If you think his opinion is wrong, fine. But it's always healthy to hear about shit we don't like hearing because somehow it relates to us.
Click to expand...

I don't have an opinion on his opinion. And I listen to every show. I just think it's an interesting choice of topic to mention on a Microsoft produced podcast about Xbox 360.
 
B

Baconsammy

Banned
LOL that Major Nelson quote is hilarious and probably pretty damn true. I can't listen to the guy simply because he's just one giant shill. I appreciate his blog though for the heads-up on sales and offers.
 
Boss Man

Boss Man

Member
"This looks less powerful than that Orbis leak, as per what DF said."

"THERE IS NO WAY PS4 WILL BE TWICE AS POWERFUL LIKE YOU ALL ARE SAYING."

Secret Sauce! Secret Sauce!

...40 pages...

Orbis: A thing
Durango: Another thing
Wii U: lol, funny thing

...20 pages...

Secret Sauce! Secret Sauce!

...30 pages...

Major Nelson said...


Honestly, I think we're going to be looking at two brother consoles getting a bunch of the same games with minor differences, and then a handful of first party games that show a somewhat noticeable difference. With the similarities in architecture, I even wonder if they've collaborated to this end.
 
I

iMax

Member
Fancy Corndog said:
"Honestly, I think we're going to be looking at two brother consoles getting a bunch of the same games with minor differences, and then a handful of first party games that show a somewhat noticeable difference. With the similarities in architecture, I even wonder if they've collaborated to this end.
Click to expand...

Sounds about right. Cross-platform games usually look as bad as the poorest performing platform. Either way, if consumers react badly, maybe Microsoft will pull a Wii U and bring a new console out 5 years down the line instead of 8.
 
Boss Man

Boss Man

Member
iMax said:
Sounds about right. Cross-platform games usually look as bad as the poorest performing platform. Either way, if consumers react badly, maybe Microsoft will pull a Wii U and bring a new console out 5 years down the line instead of 8.
Click to expand...
I can't even really tell what people are being defensive about.

Are people looking at this perceived gap and thinking that Durango may be relegated to something between Wii U and Orbis? Or that it will get 30FPS versions of 60FPS Orbis games?

That shit is not going to happen, and I will piss in my own mouth if Orbis ends up with third party games that run 50% better. I'll even piss all over my hands if first party does that, because I think that's a long shot too.

Or are people just wanting to believe that Durango is actually more powerful due to some hidden force that we don't know about? I'll piss on something if this is true too.

Regardless, I do actually have to pee.
 
J

Jack_AG

Banned
Fancy Corndog said:
Honestly, I think we're going to be looking at two brother consoles getting a bunch of the same games with minor differences, and then a handful of first party games that show a somewhat noticeable difference. With the similarities in architecture, I even wonder if they've collaborated to this end.
Click to expand...
You didn't even have to look for the truth ;)

In the end the 1st party games are the only ones that matter and buy the console that has your favorites whether its Orbis or Durango - can't go wrong if it makes you happy.

Now about MS/Sony collaboration - meh.
 
I

iMax

Member
Fancy Corndog said:
I can't even really tell what people are being defensive about.

Are people looking at this perceived gap and thinking that Durango may be relegated to something between Wii U and Orbis? Or that it will get 30FPS versions of 60FPS Orbis games?

That shit is not going to happen, and I will piss in my own mouth if Orbis ends up with third party games that run 50% better. I'll even piss all over my hands if first party does that, because I think that's a long shot too.

Or are people just wanting to believe that Durango is actually more powerful due to some hidden force that we don't know about? I'll piss on something if this is true too.

Regardless, I do actually have to pee.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I can't see myself being unhappy with anything that isn't even a marginal improvement over what we have today.

Just like with this generation, I'm sure we'll see first-party games on all three platforms that scream and take advantage of every unique technology available.

As for these magical powers? Well, I'm not accepting anything until I see an official announcement. Things change.
 
I

iMax

Member
Jack_AG said:
I can only dream of a 5 year release cycle. This 8/7 year bullshit is making me claw my fucking face.
Click to expand...

I think Kinect was marketed as a mid-generation 'bridge' to keep consumers excited despite the lack of fresh hardware. We'll probably see the same thing this time around with Fortaleza and IllumiRoom.
 
J

JohnnySasaki86

Member
Jack_AG said:
I can only dream of a 5 year release cycle. This 8/7 year bullshit is making me claw my fucking face.
Click to expand...

With games now taking on average 2-3yrs to make(new IPs a lot of times taking 3.5years), how would that work? You be lucky to get one sequel. I dont think dev cycles are going to decrease next gen. I think we'll be lucky if they stay the same. TLG/Versus13 would be skipping two generations lol
 
H

Hatten

Member
So now Durango is x86-based too? Is it 100% sure that its from AMD or could they be using Intel again?

Also why going back to x86 anyway?
 
J

Jack_AG

Banned
JohnnySasaki86 said:
With games now taking on average 2-3yrs to make(new IPs a lot of times taking 3.5years), how would that work? You be lucky to get one sequel. I dont think dev cycles are going to decrease next gen. I think we'll be lucky if they stay the same. TLG/Versus13 would be skipping two generations lol
Click to expand...
Games take a long time to make because you have 2K+ names in the credits. I see far greater efficiency and output from smaller teams.

Cut the bloat and you will cut costs and development time. Politics take a long time.

I see college students make jaw-dropping character models and animations in record time but for some reason it takes a professional studio 10 guys and 2 months for the "main" character. More moving parts doesn't make a machine more efficient.

This has already been debated in other threads with the same outcome: bloat.

R&D is one thing - but once when that's done you should be in cruise control.
 
C

Clay Davis

Member
I don't see the problem with a long console cycle, so long as all involved keep their console relevant with first party releases and other niceties like features, services, models, etc.

this extended gen has brought us some amazing titles in the past couple of years as well as later this year.
 
Death Dealer

Death Dealer

Member
Ales said:
Ehm no,Epic said that the UE4 is scalable and can be used on machines from 1+Tflops
but that the results really interesting would have occurred only on GPU of 2+ Tflops
Without that power forget Samaritan, etc. .. on durango ;)
Click to expand...

No, specialguy is right, Sweeney said UE4 gets interesting at 1 teraflop. In hindsight, they are surely talking about Durango.
Unreal Engine 4’s next-generation renderer targets DirectX 11 GPU’s and really starts to become interesting on hardware with 1+ TFLOPS of graphics performance, where it delivers some truly unprecedented capabilities. However, UE4 also includes a mainstream renderer targeting mass-market devices with a feature set that is appropriate there.
Click to expand...


http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/ar...s-next-gen-gtx-680-powered-real-time-graphics


edit: beaten twice on the last page...
 
S

shinra-bansho

Member
Meh, this is why developers may opt for 720p.
The Economist said:
A study done some years ago by the now-defunct RCA Laboratories in New Jersey found the median eye-to-screen distance in American homes to be nine feet (2.7 metres). But because of the human eye's limited acuity, people even with 20/20 vision should, as a rule, sit no further than 1.8 times the width of the screen away from it if they are to distinguish the detail displayed (see “Devil in the details”, August 19th 2011). At a distance of nine feet, an HDTV set would need to have a screen of around 70 inches across a diagonal for viewers to benefit from the resolution they have paid for. With anything smaller, details simply blur into one another at that distance. A 40-inch HDTV set—the most popular size today—needs to be watched from five feet or closer.
Click to expand...

People are more likely to notice more on screen at the distances they sit at than a resolution bump.

Although I'm guessing 60fps locked should be a target, as the smoothness should be apparent from whatever distance/size TV.
 
O

oversitting

Banned
shinra-bansho said:
Meh, this is why developers may opt for 720p.


People are more likely to notice more on screen at the distances they sit at than a resolution bump.

Although I'm guessing 60fps locked should be a target, as the smoothness should be apparent from whatever distance/size TV.
Click to expand...

People can't notice fps in screenshots or even youtube videos. Which is much of what will be compared. 1080p >>>>>>> 60fps.
 
S

shinra-bansho

Member
oversitting said:
People can't notice fps in screenshots or even youtube videos. Which is much of what will be compared. 1080p >>>>>>> 60fps.
Click to expand...
Smoothness/Judder is relatively noticeable even to the untrained eye.

Why bring up screenshots and youtube of all things? Who's playing screenshots, which can be bullshotted anyway. Who's playing youtube, which I don't even know if it supports 60fps.
 
S

shinra-bansho

Member
Double post, but meh. Was this commentary by ERP from B3D posted at all, seemed interesting:
There are ways the rumored Durango design could offset the difference in CU's on the currently rumored Orbis design.

We know very little about the SRAM pool, AFAICS it's there because of the low latency access from the GPU, but it could also be multi-ported which would increase the total effective bandwidth for the system.

It's my understanding that the ESRAM is Durango is not intended to be used like the EDRAM in 360, rather in most cases the primary target buffer will be in DDR3 memory, and the data reads will be from the ESRAM.

Depending on how much better the latency of the ESRAM is that could lead the the CU's getting better utilization.

All of that depends on being able to stream textures and other input data EFFICIENTLY through ESRAM, I don't believe this is easy to do, and it's probably why the MS docs apparently devote a lot of time to the Data Move Engines.

I wouldn't even like to posit a guess as to how much sourcing data in SRAM would actually help in efficiency, a lot depends on how much shaders are memory vs ALU limited both now and in the future, and if you can schedule the data moves efficiently.

There are other pieces to this, I'd imagine you render shadows to ESRAM directly, but if modern engines are predominantly deferred, what do you do with the first pass, can you send some of the MRT's to DDR3 and some to ESRAM?

In the end if the leak is accurate and I believe the Durango leak at least probably is, then optimizing the usage of the ESRAM is going to be a lot of rope for developers to hang themselves with.
Click to expand...

As far as I've been told, you can render to either memory pool, but in most cases you will want to render to the DDR3. I don't think it's quite as simple as this, if you are rendering simple polygons with few texture/data reads you'd want to render those to the ESRAM.
If your shader is using a lot of input data, you'd want the target in DDR3 memory and the data sources in ESRAM because this reduces the impact of GPU cache misses, which can be significant.

Because the ESRAM is small the DME's are there to asynchronously transfer data to the ESRAM before it's needed, this still eats bandwidth and there is an issue timing the transfers so as not to stall the GPU.

The DME's really are just data movers, with some additional functionality, and I would assume some way to synchronize with the GPU.
Click to expand...
 
B

Brad Grenz

Member
ERP has always been careful to qualify his statements that the major benefits he is seeing from the DME only apply if the 32MBs is actually SRAM. Unfortunately 32MBs of SRAM would take up a massive amount of space on the chip, which is why most of us have assumed we are actually looking at a form of embedded DRAM (which includes the MOSYS 1T-SRAM). Considering our bandwidth numbers for the 32MBs of on die memory can be calculated by simply multiplying the 360's eDRAM 32GBps for 10MB by 3.2 to get 102.4GBps for 32MBs, it is tempting to conclude they have simply scaled the 360's eDRAM up linearly. In that case the DMEs may be both convenient & necessary, but may not provide the more interesting benefits he is speculating about.

Conversely, we have also heard rumors that Durango's APU is very large and suffered some major yield issues. That could mean we are looking at a huge block of actual SRAM.
 
S

shinra-bansho

Member
Brad Grenz said:
ERP has always been careful to qualify his statements that the major benefits he is seeing from the DME only apply if the 32MBs is actually SRAM. Unfortunately 32MBs of SRAM would take up a massive amount of space on the chip, which is why most of us have assumed we are actually looking at a form of embedded DRAM (which includes the MOSYS 1T-SRAM). Considering our bandwidth numbers for the 32MBs of on die memory can be calculated by simply multiplying the 360's eDRAM 32GBps for 10MB by 3.2 to get 102.4GBps for 32MBs, it is tempting to conclude they have simply scaled the 360's eDRAM up linearly. In that case the DMEs may be both convenient & necessary, but may not provide the more interesting benefits he is speculating about.

Conversely, we have also heard rumors that Durango's APU is very large and suffered some major yield issues. That could mean we are looking at a huge block of actual SRAM.
Click to expand...
Would it right to draw from what he's saying, however, that should there be SRAM and should these DMEs operate as he's interpreting from his sources, they wouldn't actually somehow enhance the processing power above the theoretical maximum (i.e. 1.2 TFLOPS) as some have been proponing, but rather if properly used would allow the practical performance to get closer to the theoretical maximum.

And that the set-up is relatively complicated and to properly use it wouldn't be trivial endeavour.
 
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