What people? Actually give real examples or leave.
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WiiU technical discussion (serious discussions welcome)
- Thread starter blu
- Start date
What people? Actually give real examples or leave.
Devs for Tekken, Ninja Gaiden, and Dynasty Warriors, and others.
And again, I'm not saying overall its not more powerful than 360. I'm just saying its close enough to not make much of a difference to what is on the screen.
Everyone knows your perspective by this point. Why do you keep interrupting discussion over and over with the same points? Do you just want someone to acknowledge you and say that your point of view is best?
lostinblue
Banned
Just agree to disagree, you've stated your opinion, we know of it; and we also know you also have nothing to add to it so you're just re-stating it. You're also losing your time.
The Tekken and Dynasty Warriors dudes complained about CPU, which is normal, it's simply a different poney; understand how in order execution with 2-way SMT works, in order creates stalls because it has to recieve and complete something before doing something else, so SMT makes it so that another instruction can run and use that overhead; which when it's stalling is huge.
In Out of Order configurations, using or not using SMT accounts for a 15-30% difference at most; because out of order organizes workload accordingly and does stuff in between, so second thread is secondary, a bonus to exploit the overhead left; now because these generation cpu's were crap, devs had to tackle and optimize specifically for them so they could get proper performance. All those enhancements have to come undone for the Wii U, because suddenly it's out of order, and lacks SMT.
The more optimization for PS3/X360 your tech has (Tekken and Team Ninja case) or the more PS3/X360 specific you've been this generation (Omega Force and the aforementioned examples) the worse your results tend to be.
Same applies to the improvements you want to see, they are so used to X360/PS3 realms of possibility that they simply won't tackle new possibilities right of the bat, happens every generation really, but most of the time the differential on paper is huge and makes up for it, which is clearly not the case here; that specially makes sense considering the documentation for the GPU seems to be lacking (and in the end, it's not an of and off switch; so adding any of those specific features would take trial and error and time).
We all know it's not in another GFlop league and have known for a very long time; but GFlops, like MHz, Polygons per Second and Bits in the past aren't everything; The difference between Shader Model 3 and 4 in itself is huge, the overhead per SP is in a totally different league; efficiency or reduced bottlenecking is the thing that has been steadily improving, more than performance on paper or GFlop's by mm^2 at a certain manufacturing process; or watt consumption by GFlop; which is precisely what tells us that at 15-18W the GPU can't do miracles, but also tells us that it's no 2005 tech; not being 2005 tech has lots of implications.
Nostremitus
Member
I'm not certain that what they actually said gives any credibility to your claim. I know the Tekken dev claims he was mistranslated. I'm not trying to pick sides here (I honestly don't care how powerful it is compared to anything else, I like my Nintendo in a bubble.), and I don't understand people who do. Just don't misquote or edit peoples quotes to only have the part you like for your own edification. I'm honestly starting to think you may work for a marketing firm, considering the mudslinging and thread derailment campaign you've been on. I'd personally like to find out more about what devs have to work with, not your opinion of how it related to other consoles. That's an abstraction that really has no place in this thread.
ColdBlooder
Banned
Then why does Trine 2 look so much better on Wii U? Not just does it look alot better, it runs smoother and is the only console version to actually have fixed 720p while 360/PS3 use dynamic resolution and drop below 720p...
Again, just using selected dev comments that say its slower while there atleast least the same amout of devs saying its more powerful is not getting you anywhere.
This E3, we will se what Nintendos AAA studios can get out of the machine. Then we may have a better picture where Wii U stands. But im HIGHLY optimistic its a good chunk more powerful compared to 360/PS3 (The far more modern GPU alone should make a differnce when you don't rush your stuff. Again, see Trine 2)
Way overstating the difference. It's just occasionally higher resolution. It runs the same as 360.
Schnozberry
Member
Aside from much better lighting, steady framerate and the expansion packs that Frozenbyte said wouldn't run on 360/PS3.
Right, sorry. So as Wsippel states, the upgrade from Bobcat to Jaguar might be ~ the upgrade from Broadway to Espresso? Meaning Espresso might relate to Jaguar (per clock, per core) like Broadway does to Bobcat? If so, the point still stands, that the gap is a lot smaller than everybody thought. So again, how representative is this benchmark? Somebody mentioned it is even one of the "weak points" of Espresso? Meaning, depending on circumstances, the gap might even be smaller?
Even so, coming from previous expectations, this sheds a different light on the situation. Unless Jaguar is a multitude of Bobcat, performancewise.
Cache != FPU enhancements, and I wasn't saying it was bad, just that it shouldn't be compared to Bobcat since Bobcat was never the rumored CPU in the other eighth gen systems, Jaguar was.
I'm not sure how they would compare, I just wanted to point out that Bobcat wasn't what it is going to be up against allegedly.
IF Hector Marcan is right and the core is almost exactly a PowerPC 750, then traditionally that suffered from FPU performance and only had very basic SIMD functionality that was added to the core for the Gamecube.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC_7xx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC_7xx#Gekko
So the cache and short pipeline would likely make it pretty good for most general code, but anything that takes heavy advantage of SIMD functionality or FP performance on other consoles would obviously suffer.
ColdBlooder
Banned
Im not overstating anything. All of those are a fact backed by DF and developer comments right here on GAF.
While that's certainly true, floating point math is subject to caching. So it will affect the bottom line in real world scenarios, even if it obviously won't change the theoretic performance figures.
Citing Wikipedia is useless in this case. The Nintendo CPUs have very different, heavily modified and enhanced FPUs. That stuff is extremely Nintendo specific and not part of the 750 or PowerPC standard. Modern 750 chips like the RAD750 don't have the functionality at all, while certain, late generation G3s had it, but required some compiler trickery to actually enable those functions. Espresso is no "PowerPC 750", it's a "Nintendo PowerPC750". The difference is quite significant, yet not explained in the Wikipedia article.
ColdBlooder
Banned
According to AMD, Jaguar offers 10-15% more IPC performance per core than bobcat:
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/1...-notebooks-and-tablets-if-it-launches-on-time
Not exactly a huge jump...
This assumes any competing system would be cache bottlenecked or have less cache. Espresso has 3MB on board, Jaguar has 2 by default and of sRAM rather than eDRAM, but that's for standard parts with 4 or less cores, if the Orbis and Durango are going to be 8 core parts they may well put more cache in there, but I'm speculating. At the least I can say, we don't know that the others would have less cache or if they did that they would be cache bottlenecked.
That's probably true of most code. Again, my point was only about the FPU enhancements, if anything leans on that it should be way faster than 15%.
I agree, hence my big bolded "if", that's only true if there are no extensions that Marcan doesn't know how to tap into. I was going by his claim that it was basically the same core.
Espresso certainly has more cache per core, and considering the whole L2 eDRAM tech is pretty much A2 tech, it's possible that Espresso shares certain other, unique (and potentially performance increasing) characteristics with A2.
The same as what, exactly? The system doesn't need any undiscovered extensions, it is no 1998 PPC750 either way. It wouldn't be able to run Wii code otherwise.
"So much better"? Really?
Better, yes. But you're really exaggerating the increase in visual quality. I don't think DF even noticed the resolution difference.
Btw, they all run at 30fps with the occasional tear on ps3.
Per one core at least, since two of them have 512KB while one hogs 2MB.
Fwiw the "Orbis Unveiled" piece says 2x2MB for CPU cache, totaling 4MB for 8 cores. That gives it 512KB/core, the U has one core with more. I don't know how much a single core with a lot of cache would do for performance, but saying it "certainly has more cache per core" is only partially correct as only one of three cores does.
And then there's also cache misses to consider for both for anything that isn't inside the cache, the Orbis and Durango would have faster main memory for anything out of cache.
Indeed... just like others are keen in overstating the fact that WiiU versions of Mass Effect 3, Assassins Creed III ao. also run "worse" than the 360 version (not even taking into account the specific context of the circumstances in which the games were "ported").
Cache misses won't really hurt Espresso. There's never been a CPU that fast with such a short pipeline.
ColdBlooder
Banned
Btw it looks really "SO much better" on Wii U: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO4Nv9qYY0U
And that was pre january patch.
Does it run 30fps in the later levels and not just the prolouge?
Wrong term, my mistake. I meant main memory accesses for anything outside of cache.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Short pipeline should affect branch mispredicts and the pipeline bubbles they introduce when you flush the pipeline more than cache misses.
Not really seeing a difference. The split screen makes it hard to tell what the other half of the scene looks like on each respective console.
I'd also be untested to know if the difference in lighting is frozenbyte retooling things from the original to the expansion.
Either way, not a huge leap from one console to the next. And not able to match even an older pc.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-trine-2-face-off
Meanwhile the gamma issue was corrected on Wii U via the patch, so no more washed out.
Really, you are trying too hard.
Yeah, I already mentioned this article...
Thanks.
My previous PC from years ago would be able to run Trine 2 at a greater resolution and probably a better frame rate no problem.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
May I kindly ask everybody involved to stop with the attention grab/attention feed feedback loop?
Van Owen, if you really try to play constructive opposition here (which I sincerely doubt), that is not the way. For reference how to paricipate, see tipoo's posts.
Van Owen, if you really try to play constructive opposition here (which I sincerely doubt), that is not the way. For reference how to paricipate, see tipoo's posts.
Agreed. This thread is about the Wii U and what it is capable of. Not how it compares to other consoles, existing or future.
Or everyone could just put them on ignore. I only know what they are saying because you guys keep quoting them.
However Espresso does have a lot of fast local memory right next to it on the same package (inside Latte). Which could potentially be used as an L3 cache if a developer sees fit. I think WiiU's many local memory pools and the potential for very fast connections between the CPU/GPU is one of the most interesting things about the system. It certainly seems to have been a focus in its design.
Also as far as the cache sizes we don't really know how the cache structure works. It could be that one core has 2MB for itself alone and the other two only have 512k each. Or it could be that the core with 2MB can use that cache to hold data for all three cores. As in 2MB can be held there and worked on by that core but also sent out to the L2 cache of any of the other 2 cores to work on if necessary (sort of like a very fast pseudo L3 cache).
asking for benchmarks from non release chips? That 2.4x is just the thorughtput from 64bit FP ALU's vs 128bit.
Funny calling out someone coming from you. There is no mystery for the other 2 and also they don't have one or two threads. You were so off base you stop posting lol....
Funny calling out someone coming from you. There is no mystery for the other 2 and also they don't have one or two threads. You were so off base you stop posting lol....
Acting as it theoretical numbers equal actual benchmarks?
He stopped posting before we even had any firm info on the GPU and once we did he started posting again, you're just coming off as extremely childish.
lwilliams3
Member
I don't think that is necessary. The posts here have been very civil with the exception of posters that deride the discussion to more subjective and non-technical personal views.
Also, Bgassassin and his sources were very accurate to alot of things about Durango and Orbis. Nintendo is a bit tough to make theories about, especially with GPUs. The DS, 3DS, and the Wii U have unusual GPUs. Actually, the 3DS GPU was normal compared to the DS and now the Wii U.
Digital Foundry has an article coming quite soon that supposedly explains problems in ports but also shows a demanding game running better on Wii U...
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1706211&postcount=4755
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1706211&postcount=4755
bgassassin
Member
Yep. So off base that I started back posting and continued to stand by my view.
airmangataosenai
Member
Care to show some side by side screens?
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Waiting for you guys to ease tension through massive oily orgy is taking longer than I can wait.
*removes diaper, leaves thread looking for other hate fueled orgies*
*removes diaper, leaves thread looking for other hate fueled orgies*
Schnozberry
Member
Joel from Frozenbyte posted it all in the Trine 2 Wii U threads on GAF. I'll take his word for it.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Bah!
*pouts*
I've said worse...
*pouts*
I've said worse...
The closest they could get is somehow mounting a Wii disc image and load it in Wii mode with the Wii U intercepting calls to read from the disc.
It's theroetically possible, but it depends on how much they want to keep Wii U and Wii mode separate. Given Microsoft's limited efforts of making OXbox games available (we STILL can't download Halo 2) and Sony's solution of "just port the damn thing and release it on PSN" for the most part, I think you're more likely to see Wii games cheaply ported with bare minimum Wii U functionality and made available as eShop downloads.
edit: I bring up the Sony and MS examples as the lack of competitive pressure for Nintendo to implement the functionality
Fuck! I hate physical copies, so much clutter!
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Although for this thread I just read instead of actively participating, I think when talking about performance/capabilities, of course comparison to competing consoles is important. I also think people can have perfectly civil discussion while doing so, and you folks can just ignore those who aren't capable of doing it, as people with dishonest intentions can usually be spotted easily anyways.
It's possible (with some work). And they should definitely do it.
What gives me hope is the fact that Reggie mentioned GameCube VC games.
<cue> Dev in PR mode wanting to sell his game</cue>
Anyway, that post by NBtoaster made me curious.
Would this be a "new" title we don't know of? Or a released game? Maybe Deus Ex if that rumor is true, by the guys that did a good job porting ME3? This is probably going somewhat offtopic, but...
Cosmonaut X
Member
If it is an unannounced title, it won't be named in the piece and it would be unusual for DF to talk about "best versions" of unannounced games no-one in the public has seen running. I'd expect something we do know about, but I can't think which title it would be. All of the DF comparisons so far can be eliminated, so what does that leave us with?
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