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US Gamer: Down With Grinding

L

Lime

Member
Kat Bailey wrote a great article on why grinding sucks. Different views on the game design trope, where Bailey also lists some of the more sucessful implementations of grinding.

At its core, grinding is filler. It dangles the promise of a meaningful reward—better skills, new weapons, special items—in exchange for drudgery. It's a trick designed to keep players engaged without having to produce new and interesting content.

Its roots are in the days of 8-bit RPGs, when developers had limited resources and memory. In forcing players to grind through monsters to get to a high enough level to defeat a boss, designers were able to arficially extend playtime. Moreover, they were spared from having to design unique and interesting encounters, as victory became more of a matter of brute force.
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As games have evolved, grinding has become less about making up for memory shortages and more about getting players to spend money. MMORPGs were practically founded on grinding for endgame loot, which is a function of the desire to keep people subscribed. In Madden 18, solo challenges having grown into a multi-headed monster in which you have to grind through dozens—if not hundreds—of rote missions to get non-auctionable rewards. It's a trick designed to bore you into giving up and springing for microtransactions. And it works.

A new and particularly pernicious example can be found in Shadow of War's endgame. In order to get the best ending in Shadow of War, you need to recruit lots of powerful orcs, which necessitates a time-consuming slog that can be mitigated (surprise, surprise) by purchasing loot boxes.
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Sadly, I fear that the the recent trend toward loot boxes will only encourage developers to lean harder on grinding as a substitute for substantive and interesting content, as we're seeing in Shadow of War. And that will only lead to less interesting games overall.

But whether as a crutch for early designers or a way to pump up monetization, grinding will always be the least interesting form of game design—a mindless bit of padding that trades boredom for illusory rewards. It's indicative of either poor balance, a lack of imagination, or worse, a determination to gear the design toward forcing players to shell out more money. It is the definition of compromise.
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Much more at the link: http://www.usgamer.net/articles/down-with-grinding
 
A

AmyS

Member
First console jRPG in the U.S. - this is what grinding meant back then in '88.

pvUl0ZP.png


EYH0lp6.gif
 
J

James Scott

Banned
The feeling of progression in these RPGs is the best part most of the time.
But when your progress is halted due to not being able to hit hard enough, it feels awful.

The weird part is that these games are usually already very long so grinding just feels like poor design.

It’s getting pretty bad in mobile games were that’s openly advertised. (Lvl 1->lvl 10->level 50) and you have to pay for it not to be a terrible waste of time
 
appaws

appaws

Banned
I love Kat and I have always found that I can count on her opinions of games, they often match my own...

But I have to say that on some weird level I LIKE grinding. Maybe something in my brain that putting in time to make some numbers go up provides a simple form of feedback that I find satisfying.

I also find it to be time that I can turn the sound down on a game and listen to a podcast. Why, just last night I turned down the sound in Ys VIII and was listening to....Kat Bailey!
 
W

Wagram

Member
I would also argue that the endless walking, repetitive tasks, and bland so called "quests" in open world titles are grinding. They're just time wasters.
 
Yui's Empire

Yui's Empire

Member
If you can genuinely progress just by playing through all the different content, it's good. If you're forced to powerlevel or grind for hours repeating missions already finished or lose time spamming creeps or something, it literally is not fun and shouldn't be in the game. Want the game to last 40 hours? Build so much content. Don't block me before a boss telling me I need to grind 10 hours more. If I can't get there by simply doing secondary quests, collecting secrets or working on challenges, it's bad design. Progress needs to be constant. I am no longer a kid that can play as a job like 8 hours a day. I can't be wasting a whole week of evening hours on grinding towards an objective. It's a flawed design that needs to go imho.
 
C

CookTrain

Member
Sometimes I will play a track in Trials a hundred times or more before I get it.

I'm curious if that fits into the realm of grind. It feels like it probably should, but at the same time not. I guess it would fall into the problematic grind if it made someone repeat the track after a success a number of times?
 
sotojuan

sotojuan

Member
I like grinding, but the game has to be quick. Example: I hate grinding in FFIX because battles take forever. I love grinding in SNES FFs and the DS Dragon Quest games because battles take 20 seconds, if not less. It's relaxing to me.

That said, I agree that this definition of grinding is not so good:

As games have evolved, grinding has become less about making up for memory shortages and more about getting players to spend money. MMORPGs were practically founded on grinding for endgame loot, which is a function of the desire to keep people subscribed.
Click to expand...
 
N

nivorae

Member
grinding is only bad when it feels like a grind eg. there is no apparent growth and diversity in it.

One of my favourite instances of grinding still is maxing out all jobs in FFV in Galuf's basement because it had the right amount of time needed and due to how it works it also shows constant character growth.

in FFXIV i feel the same with gathering because it gives money in return or i can use it to gather. But the main reason i love it is because it forces me to go out in the world and re-explore old maps i have forgotten details about. It's my sightseeing.
 
U

UserDoesNotExist

Member
Much as I want to rant against loot boxes corrupting game design at every opportunity...

I actually kinda like grinding. I work at an intellectually demanding job, so being able to come home and turn my brain off when playing games and at the same time chatting with friends or listening to podcasts is relaxing.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
A portion of the acceptance of grind is that players have been conditioned to accept it. Another part probably comes from the sort of relaxation that comes from a rote activity. Think whittling, fishing, etc... That's not to say there isn't any engagement or skill with these things but that a good portion of the time spent and a lot of the enjoyment comes from the repetitive action that allows for someone to put their mind in a passive state. Distracted enough not to be bored but also not having to focus too hard either.

Take something like grinding mobs in a JRPG or grinding quests while leveling in an MMO (most don't even bother to read quest text aside from the goal) while you listen to music or have a show/movie/podcast on in the background vs the active engagement while playing a game like Cuphead or Dark Souls. The former is largely relaxing while latter is often frustrating.
 
Airola

Airola

Member
I think that whatever limitations were the reason grinding had to be done, it allowed the creators to find a nice game mechanic by "accident", just as I feel lives in games aren't archaic thing from a past because they had to make arcade games take money.

In other words, because they were "forced" to make these game mechanics I think they were able to make very enjoyable gaming experiences. The arcade games wouldn't have been as fun without the concept of lives. The RPGs wouldn't have been as fun without the experience of slowly getting the characters stronger by the players themselves having to do the work.

There is a reason why the "clicker" games are addictive. That's what grinding in games essentially is. There is something very addictive in a balance of borderline frustrating work and getting rewards for the work.
 
T

thomasmahler

Member
I mean, a lot of the examples she makes aren't really about grinding as I understand it, they just boil down to bad gamedesign or shitty ways to encourage players to spend money on microtransactions.

Grinding can be a powerful tool for a game designer, because it gives the player a way to choose his own difficulty when done properly. Wanna have an easier time? Just spend a bit more time fighting and you'll level up. Simple, elegant and can be great if the thing you do while grinding is fun, i.e. if the combat is actually super fun.

I'm never a fan of broad statements like 'Down with Mechanic X!', cause any mechanic can be used effectively by a good designer.
 
J

jett

D-Member
sotojuan said:
I like grinding, but the game has to be quick. Example: I hat grinding in FFIX because battles take forever. I love grinding in SNES FFs and the DS Dragon Quest games because battles take 20 seconds, if not less. It's relaxing to me.

That said, I agree that this definition of grinding is not so good:
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say I love grinding, but I've been replaying FF6 and surprised myself how much I enjoyed the random battles. It's really all about pace and speed. FF9 is probably something that I will never, ever replay.
 
A

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Everyone likes a little bit of grinding, FF7 would have been a bummer if you could just roll through it in 8 hours.

But theres a big difference between a grind that is set by the developer based on what they believe is best for the game, and grind by an executive set to encourage you to pay subscription fees or buy microtransactions.
 
Z

Zukkoyaki

Member
If the gameplay is enjoyable then grinding isn't an issue. The way I see it, grinding is only a problem if it requires a blatantly obscene amount or if the player is literally only in it for the story.
 
Z

zelas

Member
100% with her. Grinding is nothing but meaningless filler. Adds no challenge at all, doesn't change the plot one bit. Replace grinding with actual content or new game plus modes.

Airola said:
In other words, because they were "forced" to make these game mechanics I think they were able to make very enjoyable gaming experiences. The arcade games wouldn't have been as fun without the concept of lives. The RPGs wouldn't have been as fun without the experience of slowly getting the characters stronger by the players themselves having to do the work.
Click to expand...
There is actual challenege in using less credits in arcade games. There is no challenege in figuring out the math for a jrpg fight once then mindlessley following the exact same steps over and over, hundreds of times. The fact that jrpgs can be turboed should make the distinction obvious. It's literally an admission by developers that the process isn't worth your time.
 
LordRaptor

LordRaptor

Member
I really don't agree that grinding was only in early games due to memory limits.
Padding a game has been around forever, and its always been mostly for commercial reasons - to stop rentals, to stop flipping it for second hand while it still has new title value, to put an "over x hours to complete!" bullet point as a value sell.
 
M

Marcel

Member
People like to grind as long as you impress the image of a carrot in their brain even when they're usually getting the stick. See also: Destiny 1.

Bungie conditioned its players so bad that some Destiny players want the grind back in the new game lol.
 
B

Blackleg-sanji1

Banned
If I gotta grind to progress the story than yea fuck that it sucks if I gotta grind to beat some optional boss or dungeon than whatever that’s more so a choice
 
A

almostjuliuscaesar

Member
It all depends on the game & how it’s implemented. Grinding materia in the meteor cave in FFVII was tedious yet fun because the reward was so evident. Not to mention you’re simultaneously making your characters OP. But the monster capture grind in FFX was controller spike worthy b/c the RNG seemed to know when you needed a monster & would avoid it for huge spans of time. When grinding is presented as an *option* to better rewards/extras they usually are good or tolerable. But when attached to something intrinsic to the story/game like Shadow of War or MUT (I’ve hated ultimate team forever because I saw what it was doing) then that’s when they’re truly designed because publisher demand players be enticed to buy micro transactions.
 
V

Vic20

Member
There is good grinding and bad grinding in gaming. To say it is only bad for gaming is a gross reduction of it value to gaming. The real issue is balancing the grind versus the reward, and MMOs/loot box games certainly should not be looked toward to provide us a sense of what that balance should look like.
 
B

Blyr

Banned
I enjoy grinding in games, but only when it's done with the player in mind (as odd as that may sound)

Games like Disgaea do it very well, where you reach absurd numbers and your do absurd amounts of damage, and then it gives you bosses and maps to challenge you when you've maxed yourself out, it's a suuuuuper long grind game, but I adore it to bits.

I also love more niche JRPGs where the grind is strong, with super low drop rates and maps that I eventually memorize to the point of being able to put on a show on netflix and clear the area from muscle memory alone, it's nice to just turn your brain off and do something mindless and repetitive for a while

However I'll agree with the sentiment of grind is bad when it's designed in such a way that it's not "fun", but more so a punishment for not buying MT's or lootboxes, which I've really only ever come across in a lot of older f2p MMO's.. (hey you can grind these weak enemies until you're lvl 50 and are finally capable of fighting enemies level appropriate, OR you can buy these skinnerboxes and get super powerful gear and just go there right now, and make your life soo much easier~)

I also don't see eye to eye with the writer about MMO's where you grind for endgame gear as an inherently bad thing, I understand the logic behind it, but for me and my friends, grinding for endgame gear in MMO's like WoW was an excuse to hop online one night a week and spend time talking to eachother, the "grind" was an excuse to hang out, and when everyone had fully geared up their current characters, we'd start working on our alts and repeating the process. It's also a super cool feeling when you have a full set of super hard to get gear in a social space and can show off your progress, but I guess that's just different POVs
 
M

MugiwaraCole

Member
Jest Chillin said:
A portion of the acceptance of grind is that players have been conditioned to accept it. Another part probably comes from the sort of relaxation that comes from a rote activity. Think whittling, fishing, etc... That's not to say there isn't any engagement or skill with these things but that a good portion of the time spent and a lot of the enjoyment comes from the repetitive action that allows for someone to put their mind in a passive state. Distracted enough not to be bored but also not having to focus too hard either.

Take something like grinding mobs in a JRPG or grinding quests while leveling in an MMO (most don't even bother to read quest text aside from the goal) while you listen to music or have a show/movie/podcast on in the background vs the active engagement while playing a game like Cuphead or Dark Souls. The former is largely relaxing while latter is often frustrating.
Click to expand...

Came here to say this, more or less.
 
C

crpav

Member
I grew up "learning" to love grinding but of course back then I had more time to do so and less games that I wanted to play. I think my first game I played that involved grinding was Dragon Warrior. Following that was Phantasy Star and Final Fantasy.
 
Orpheum

Orpheum

Member
Some enjoy it and to each their own. For some people this probably has a psychic effect, it calms them down after a stressful day. If you have at least a little progression, that's enough of a reward.

The only game i enjoy it myself is Diablo 3, i get these itches from time to time and i constantly go back to the game. It's just the best, getting home from a tough day at work and just grind until you get that set item.
 
T

Tigress

Member
appaws said:
I love Kat and I have always found that I can count on her opinions of games, they often match my own...

But I have to say that on some weird level I LIKE grinding. Maybe something in my brain that putting in time to make some numbers go up provides a simple form of feedback that I find satisfying.

I also find it to be time that I can turn the sound down on a game and listen to a podcast. Why, just last night I turned down the sound in Ys VIII and was listening to....Kat Bailey!
Click to expand...

I honestly love grinding but there is a balance. At some point it gets to be too much and dulls the game cause the reward doesn't feel worth how much grinding you did for it. GTA online fits this very well and it's my favorite example of how MTs ruin games. Honestly, I love No Man's Sky but it also is a little too grindy but easier for me to take cause I know it was not done just to manipulate me to pay for MTs.

Anyways, I mostly agree with the article. They really shouldn't just rely on grinding and it is horrible when it's done to push you into paying more. I don't think it should go away (obviously, to a point I like it), but it should be balanced better. And I don't think it will in any game that has MT's/loot boxes cause it's way too lucrative to design the game that way which is why I *hate* MTs so much.
 
T

TripleBee

Member
I would argue that grinding is actually not as prevalent in rpgs as they used to be.

Agreed, that they have become more so in other genres - but only because they've blended the genres to make them partial rpgs.
 
W

Wowfunhappy

Member
thomasmahler said:
Grinding can be a powerful tool for a game designer, because it gives the player a way to choose his own difficulty when done properly. Wanna have an easier time? Just spend a bit more time fighting and you'll level up. Simple, elegant and can be great if the thing you do while grinding is fun, i.e. if the combat is actually super fun.
Click to expand...

But that means I as a player have to be constantly managing my difficulty. "Uh oh, I'd better not fight too many enemies here, or it will make next boss battle too easy." Or on the other end: "Crap, I haven't fought enough enemies, now I need to aimlessly wander around this dungeon for a bit."

This was an actual, constant issue for me in Persona 5, which I just finished a couple weeks ago. Depending on how I naturally made my way through the dungeon, bosses would feel either much too easy or borderline impossible. I know that XP and leveling is a staple of these types of games, but honestly I'd rather just be done with it. If I need to change the difficulty, there are difficulty settings in the options screen.
 
P

Phrozenflame500

Member
Agreed completely. It's current year 2017 and the internet has ruined my attention span, if a game makes me do too many unfun, monotonous tasks for a solely extrinsic reward I typically would prefer just putting down the game.
 
N

Night Angel

Member
Many ARPGs/loot games couldn't exist without grinding. Games like D2/3, Path of Exile, and to a lesser extent Monster Hunter would be empty, worthless experiences.

If grinding is supported by great gameplay and systems, it can make for a fun, rewarding gameplay loop. Grinding itself isn't an issue, but adding grinding to incentive loot boxes or pad a content-starved game is.
 
T

Tain

Member
"Grinding" is obviously poorly defined. In games that I enjoy I don't mind repeating the good bits over and over and over again, but I don't particularly enjoy repeating relatively simple fights in traditional JRPGs. I see that as a flaw of the task itself more than the structures that tie them together.

I don't mind monster arena after monster arena after monster arena in Halo. I don't mind fight after fight after fight in Street Fighter. I do mind battle after battle after battle in Final Fantasy.
 
G

Griss

Member
Couldn't agree more. Grinding has always been mindless drudgery designed to extend playtime, but it's the introduction of microtransactions that has turned it really poisonous.

Back in the day you'd say 'Huh, they didn't balance this game so well, did they?' when you had to grind to get past something. It was a flaw, but one you could accept. These days, you think 'They want me to buy a microtransaction to speed this up or the super-exp DLC chapter etc' and you just feel like the game design has been intentionally compromised.

I'm allergic to grinding these days, I just won't do it. The point of single player games is to constantly be experiencing new challenges and new content. I don't have that much time to play games - I don't have any time to waste doing the same thing over and over, and I don't find it enjoyable.

Now let's see them do an article about the tyranny of levelling systems and how they make a joke of balanced encounters. Grinding and levelling systems ruined Hyrule Warriors for me.
 
D

deathkiller

Member
Night Angel said:
Games like D2/3, Path of Exile, and to a lesser extent Monster Hunter would be empty, worthless experiences.
Click to expand...
I played more than a few times Diablo 2 until the end without repeating levels for loot and had a great time doing so. Grind is only an essential part of their end-game.
 
A

Aurean_Mentat

Member
The problem with defining grinding is that grinding relies on enjoyment. Someone who hates the random battles in FF VII would view all of them as grinding, whereas someone who enjoys them doesn't view them as a problem.

But I'll attempt it anyways. I've always defined grinding as "working now to enjoy the game later". World of Warcraft really solidified this for me, because I was logging in to do my dailies, to do the heroic silver dungeons get my emblems of heroism to buy the silver level raid gear so I could do silver raids which dropped gold level gear, so I could start doing the gold level heroics to the just the emblems of triumph to get the gold level gear so I could start doing the gold level raids which dropped jade level gear, so I could start doing the jade level heroics which dropped emblems of victory to get the jade level gear so I could do the jade level raids so I could get moonlight level gear ....

You get the idea. I was putting in hours now with the promise that 'the enjoyment is coming'. That's what a lot of the games that prompt you to spend money to skip the grind and get straight to the fun! But this is a video game, and why the hell would I play it if its not enjoyable now?

That's where I think the danger lies with MTs and lootboxes. Their presence in game is designed to use psychological tricks to wear you down until you buy some (and this is just cosmetic stuff).

In short, these businesses have a right to do as they like, and clearly these are a good deal for them. But its not my job as the consumer to do what is best for the business, and I don't think there is a single universe where any of these are aligned with the consumer's interest.
 
F

flatearthpandas

Member
I don't know... most of my grinding in recent years has been pretty non-essential it outside of RPGs.

Grind recipes. Grind money. Grind mats for supergear.

Of course, grinding in mmos is apt, but it was part of the charm. When i was raiding wow, i was raiding dungeons my guild didn't care about with friends with no benefit to me except fun. Purplez didn't make me grind, they were the bonus and necessary equipment for raiding.

Recently I grind trophies in visual novels or ranks in shooters. I grind money and crops in Stardew Valley.

RPGs are fine.

The rest of the industry taking old-school RPG notes is the problem. Last rpgs, whether drpgs, classic, or whatever, have required zero grinding for me outside of endgame fuckery and endgame fuckery is exactly what it sounds like. You've beaten the game. If you don't want to mess with it, it's just extra fluff for those who want it. And with the switch, can't even care about that. Put on a season of whatever and grind the fuck out of any endgame no problem.
 
sotojuan

sotojuan

Member
Wowfunhappy said:
But that means I as a player have to be constantly managing my difficulty. "Uh oh, I'd better not fight too many enemies here, or it will make next boss battle too easy." Or on the other end: "Crap, I haven't fought enough enemies, now I need to aimlessly wander around this dungeon for a bit."

This was an actual, constant issue for me in Persona 5, which I just finished a couple weeks ago. Depending on how I naturally made my way through the dungeon, bosses would feel either much too easy or borderline impossible. I know that XP and leveling is a staple of these types of games, but honestly I'd rather just be done with it. If I need to change the difficulty, there are difficulty settings in the options screen.
Click to expand...

It's weird that you mention P5 as, like SMT, level does not matter as much as what attacks you have. The difficulty of SMT-type games boils down to "what attacks is this boss weak against and what am I weak against?".

This is why you can defeat enemies 30+ levels above you in SMTIV for example (barring bad RNG). Your level is mostly just padding that makes some situations easier, as it should be.

In the best designed RPGs, your level is not as important as your equipment or other external factors that can't just be grinded out. In my best experiences, grinding does not make a boss fight just "press A".
 
Toadthemushroom

Toadthemushroom

Member
Steiner84 said:
wth?
Alot of people absolutely love grinding.
Click to expand...

Just because people enjoy something doesn't mean it's good design or shouldn't be criticised as bad design. It's fine to ask why people enjoy something that may well be a mechanic that's used as a crutch to make a game more compelling.

See:
The Skinner Box - How Games Condition People to Play More - Extra Credits

If you're playing an RPG, and you're grinding, either *just* to level up again, or to get a rare loot drop from a particular monster, then are you really having fun? If the game isn't challenging you and you've stopped learning anything new from it?
 
F

Freddo

Member
Really dislike grinding. One reason Suikoden is my favourite JRPG series, besides the excellent story, expanding the base and all that stuff, is that there a minimal amount of grinding. You can just keep moving forward in the story.
 
F

FiveSide

Banned
Grinding is just a shorthand for saying that there's some problem with the gameplay loop. I think it's more productive to frame it as "the gameplay loop has issues" rather than "grinding is bad."

Every game that involves repeated actions involves grinding by definition. It's just that we don't think of it as "grinding" because it's fun and engaging.

The only reason I make this pedantic distinction is because "grinding is bad" leads to a mentality where repetition is immediately considered a flaw. Repetition is a wonderful tool, both from a design and artistic perspective.
 
L

Landford

Banned
I think grinding is NOT a bad gameplay reward system, when the act of grinding is tied to a very good gameplay and mechanics AND the rewards are actually tangible. I played Warframe and Destiny 2 these last months, and while in Destiny 2 I liked the gunplay and the weapons feel, I played for 2 hours, collected a bunch of EDZ tokens, went to redeem them, and didnt get a single item to raise my Power level by more than 1.

While in Waframe, I played a bunch of missions to unlock new planets, and by the end of my short session, about a hour and a half, i got a BUNCH of materials, levels, a new weapon, a bunch of warframe parts, and credits and materials enough that I could craft another weapon (a bow called "Dread") and itens for me to unlock a pet dog to acompany me in battle.
 
sotojuan

sotojuan

Member
Toadthemushroom said:
If you're playing an RPG, and you're grinding, either *just* to level up again, or to get a rare loot drop from a particular monster, then are you really having fun? If the game isn't challenging you and you've stopped learning anything new from it?
Click to expand...

Believe it or not, some people enjoy this. I would never say "I like this so everyone should do it", but I do enjoy grinding for drops, steals, or levels (up to a certain point of course).
 
C

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
Toadthemushroom said:
Just because people enjoy something doesn't mean it's good design or shouldn't be criticised as bad design. It's fine to ask why people enjoy something that may well be a mechanic that's used as a crutch to make a game more compelling.

See:
The Skinner Box - How Games Condition People to Play More - Extra Credits

If you're playing an RPG, and you're grinding, either *just* to level up again, or to get a rare loot drop from a particular monster, then are you really having fun? If the game isn't challenging you and you've stopped learning anything new from it?
Click to expand...

Are you saying that people who say they enjoy grinding really aren't enjoying grinding? I'm not sure what your point is, tbh. I enjoy grinding in many games, and I feel pretty confident in my ability to know when I'm actually enjoying something rather than just saying I enjoy something for the sake of an internet messageboard.

If I didn't like it, I'd just...stop.
 
G

Grettir_the_Swole

Member
I wouldn't mind it if I had the time, but like every grown-ass adult I find myself limited to an hour or two if I push it when I find the time. Grinding in the early days of JRPG gaming was excessive and I'm glad that bad gaming habit is more or less dead. The early Dragon Quest titles, while some of my favorite JRPGs of all time, were notorious for having this gradual leveling curve and then require this 10-20 level grind to defeat the final boss. That needs to go away. I don't mind having to level up a little extra in my RPGs, but don't make it so time consuming I have to dedicate a damn month or two to get halfway through the game. I am a cog in the capitalist machine, I don't have time for these shenanigans.
 
Toadthemushroom

Toadthemushroom

Member
sotojuan said:
Believe it or not, some people enjoy this. I would never say "I like this so everyone should do it", but I do enjoy grinding for drops, steals, or levels (up to a certain point of course).
Click to expand...

I believe it, I'm just saying it doesn't mean it can't be criticised or that it isn't lazy design compared with other ways games can be compelling to players.

commish said:
Are you saying that people who say they enjoy grinding really aren't enjoying grinding? I'm not sure what your point is, tbh. I enjoy grinding in many games, and I feel pretty confident in my ability to know when I'm actually enjoying something rather than just saying I enjoy something for the sake of an internet messageboard.

If I didn't like it, I'd just...stop.
Click to expand...

No, I'm saying there are better tools in the developers' toolkit to keep players playing their game than making them repeat a repetitive task that provides little else than a quick rush when you do finally get that reward your brain has been expecting (level up, random loot drop etc).

For instance, if the player's brain has been conditioned by the game to expect a level up at a certain interval, or a rare loot drop, why not put that behind an in-game challenge that really tests what the player has learned, or has a unique bit of level (or enemy) design behind it instead?

See also: achievement systems. Trophies are rarely ever good, but you can't deny that their systems are lazy ways to long extend the lifespan of games and keep eyes glued to screens.

Those who are familiar with B.F. Skinner's work, particularly in operant conditioning, probably understand that doling out rewards at random intervals, like the current achievement-model tends to, is a well-understood way to squirt happy-chemicals into a user's bloodstream and thereby keep them playing long after they've stopped learning anything. Philosophically, I personally think that games have the capacity to do much more than just be unfulfilling exploitative operant conditioning chambers, but even if you don't, you should be aware that this common system of achievements is causing a similar effect.
Click to expand...

Indeed.
 
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