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The iPad/iPhone/iPod Touch Gaming |Thread4| NOT Doomed

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J

Jackson

Member
Mario said:
That's kind of my point. In my view, Mighty Fin is pitched at the right level of investment and will have made back far more of that as a percentage than Whale Trail. The Whale Trail team over invested, probably spending too much on marketing/advertising which has a low ROI, and may never break even.

There are definitely ways in which you can protect your downside to increase your chance of breaking even and moving into profitability. Luck plays a role, but you can stack the odds for success considerably with smart decisions, careful spending, and the right activity.

All but 2 of the 15 titles PikPok have published so far have failed to or won't break even.

The main problem developers face on the App Store (and indeed for most platforms) is the naive belief that developing a great game is the only thing that matters. The world is littered with the corpses of developers who made great games.
Click to expand...

My opinion is that Whale Trail is not even a good game let alone a great game. It's boring and the art/music is so sugary sweet it turns people (even girls) off. The theme also makes no sense to the mass market (flying whale in clouds? how does the casual gamer identify with that?) and the game over all has little reason to replay after a minute or two. Also traditional marketing/advertising has no place in the iOS space. It doesn't help returns at all.

The reason the game sold poorly is because it simply wasn't good, nor did it fit in the market properly. It was polished though, I agree with that completely. But polishing something doesn't make it a great game, it just makes it a well put together game.

I wouldn't be all over this guy if he didn't say:
"If we shift less than this, then we can safely say premium is no longer sustainable for ustwo and others like us in terms of investment,"
Click to expand...

That's such a stupid blanket statement. Your "genius" game fails, therefor it's not you that's the problem, it's the market and thus all other titles will be failures as well? Hubris much?
 
C

CrunchinJelly

formerly cjelly
Franklinator said:
I think you're right. Just did a quick search and it seems the 3DS game is a port of the Wii game with extra stuff. And this iOS version is some spin-off

I found it here:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=431889
Click to expand...
iOS version looks pretty good for a 'spin-off'

3DS

ruMHy.gif


iOS

MwghS.png
 
F

Franklinator

Member
cjelly said:
iOS version looks pretty good for a 'spin-off'

3DS

http://i.imgur.com/ruMHy.gif[IMG]

iOS

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/MwghS.png[IMG][/QUOTE]

I agree that it looks good. I just called it 'some spin-off' because the thread I linked to was kinda vague about what exactly it is. Also, I don't know much about any of the Order Up games, lol
Click to expand...
 
G

Gala

Member
Any opinions on the Ascendancy iOS version? I watched some videos on YouTube and it looked really good. Looks more complex than Starbase Orion and it seems to have diplomacy in it.

So what would GAF recommend? Ascendancy, Starbase Orion or Distant Star
 
8

8sanders

Murderer's Gut Feeling™
Jackson said:
My opinion is that Whale Trail is not even a good game let alone a great game. It's boring and the art/music is so sugary sweet it turns people (even girls) off. The theme also makes no sense to the mass market (flying whale in clouds? how does the casual game identify with that?) and the game over all has little reason to replay after a minute or two. Also traditional marketing/advertising has no place in the iOS space. It doesn't help returns at all.

The reason the game sold poorly is because it simply wasn't good, nor did it fit in the market properly. It was polished though, I agree with that completely. But polishing something doesn't make it a great game, it just makes it a well put together game.

I wouldn't be all over this guy if he didn't say:

That's such a stupid blanket statement. Your "genius" game fails, therefor it's not you that's the problem, it's the market and thus all other titles will be failures as well? Hubris much?
Click to expand...

Hmmm... It's my iOS GOTY for 2011. I love it! To each his own I suppose. It is a game of skill which I much prefer to the luck element of say Jetpack Joyride. Whale Trail is totally underrated IMHO .
 
GeekyDad

GeekyDad

Member
Jackson said:
My opinion is that Whale Trail is not even a good game let alone a great game. It's boring and the art/music is so sugary sweet it turns people (even girls) off. The theme also makes no sense to the mass market (flying whale in clouds? how does the casual game identify with that?) and the game over all has little reason to replay after a minute or two. Also traditional marketing/advertising has no place in the iOS space. It doesn't help returns at all.

The reason the game sold poorly is because it simply wasn't good, nor did it fit in the market properly. It was polished though, I agree with that completely. But polishing something doesn't make it a great game, it just makes it a well put together game.

I wouldn't be all over this guy if he didn't say:

That's such a stupid blanket statement. Your "genius" game fails, therefor it's not you that's the problem, it's the market and thus all other titles will be failures as well? Hubris much?
Click to expand...

Wow, dude. I would normally say that's pretty fucking harsh if I didn't agree with pretty much everything you said. I think iOS is perhaps the most ideal market in terms of good games being rewarded. I think iOS gamers are generally more savvy than most, if for no other reason because there's so much out there to choose from and quite a few business models being tested. I'm sure there are ample unsung heroes on this platform, but so far the view I'm getting is one that suggests that good games are usually at the forefront of the App Store.

Honestly, though, I haven't tried this particular game, but I do know it was well received by critics. So, I have take your criticisms about the game itself with a grain of salt. But I still agree with where you're coming from.
 
M

Manax

Member
Gala said:
Any opinions on the Ascendancy iOS version? I watched some videos on YouTube and it looked really good. Looks more complex than Starbase Orion and it seems to have diplomacy in it.

So what would GAF recommend? Ascendancy, Starbase Orion or Distant Star
Click to expand...

i just picked up distant star and did a normal game with 4 races, while it looks good it was pretty damn simple, no way to win other than kill all the other races and basically the aim is to generate more money (through building structures on your planet farm, bank, research lab and stardock are about it with some upgrades for each) so you can just buy battleships to send to destroy the other races

i didnt really enjoy it that much
 
J

Jackson

Member
GeekyDad said:
Wow, dude. I would normally say that's pretty fucking harsh if I didn't agree with pretty much everything you said. I think iOS is perhaps the most ideal market in terms of good games being rewarded. I think iOS gamers are generally more savvy than most, if for no other reason because there's so much out there to choose from and quite a few business models being tested. I'm sure there are ample unsung heroes on this platform, but so far the view I'm getting is one that suggests that good games are usually at the forefront of the App Store.

Honestly, though, I haven't tried this particular game, but I do know it was well received by critics. So, I have take your criticisms about the game itself with a grain of salt. But I still agree with where you're coming from.
Click to expand...

It was a bit harsh. I agree. I just get rubbed the wrong way when people write off the entire market because they didn't succeed in it, therefor no one must be able to and it's a stupid market.

As I said it's just my opinion why the game didn't sell. :) When I look at the evergreen iOS titles (Angry Birds, Cut the Rope, Where's My Water?, Fruit Ninja, etc.) I do not see Whale Trail fitting in with them.


8sanders said:
Hmmm... It's my iOS GOTY for 2011. I love it! To each his own I suppose. It is a game of skill which I much prefer to the luck element of say Jetpack Joyride. Whale Trail is totally underrated IMHO .
Click to expand...
Ya I'm the opposite, I liked Jetpack Joyride much better due to the challenges. Was all over it for a few days until I completed them. But as you said, to each their own! :)
 
C

chickdigger802

Banned
Alextended said:
Yeah... But what's hard about pressing two buttons together... Loads of games ask that.... Now, it can be a bit tricky compared to the arcade games where you have big ass buttons you press with fingers other than your thumb but consoles give you 4 extra shoulder buttons to map those two tricky combinations on, if you don't want to get an arcade stick.

Or you could map the shoulder buttons to the primary functions, and put combinations on the face buttons.

Or whatever else.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty much just talking about say, playstation controller. when games tell you to do []+O for moves. A bit hard to do without hitting other face buttons. I believe some sc games allow shortcuts by default to right analog stick...

idk it just feels weird lol.
 
Alexios

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Yeah, just map triangle + x to L1 and square + circle to R1 or whatever.

Or make L1 the function of square, R1 triangle, L2 x, R2 circle so they can be all pressed easily in any combinations.

Or a combination of the above. Or whatever. Namco's games at least should be fully customisable like that.
 
S

StarCreator

Member
chickdigger802 said:
I'm pretty much just talking about say, playstation controller. when games tell you to do []+O for moves. A bit hard to do without hitting other face buttons. I believe some sc games allow shortcuts by default to right analog stick...

idk it just feels weird lol.
Click to expand...

Am I the only one that holds controllers with 2-4 fingers on the face buttons?
 
Alexios

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
StarCreator said:
Am I the only one that holds controllers with 2-4 fingers on the face buttons?
Click to expand...
I did that back in the Saturn days... The 360 controller's buttons aren't comfortable to press with fingers other than the thumb. Buttons need to be made like the Wii's Classic Controller if not better. And we need to get back to 6 face buttons...
 
S

soldat7

Member
Jackson said:
When I look at the evergreen iOS titles (Angry Birds, Cut the Rope, Where's My Water?, Fruit Ninja, etc.) I do not see Whale Trail fitting in with them.
Click to expand...

Because Whale Trail isn't a complete waste of time compared to those other games, mostly. Well scratch that, they're all blech, IMO.

So many excellent games get passed right on by on this platform. And then you have the success of the fremiums...ugh.
 
S

Shaneus

Member
Item_Screen said:
Well, it took forever, but I went through the entire GAF GameCenter list and added everybody. Some of the names didn't go through because I may have typed them in wrong, and I'm sure I missed a few others, so if you didn't get a request from me (donniebutts) please add me!

...now if only more of you had Bug Princess

Time to get Hero Academy I guess.
Click to expand...
I saw you added me! I haven't played Princess for a while but with a friend who actually has it, I'll make more of an effort to give it a crack.

Oh, I'm still addicted to Dungeon Raid, too. Fuck you, Wario... you've destroyed my life.

Looks like Pinball HD was updated to include an AC/DC table as an IAP. Can't say I'm not tempted.
 
A

Alex Connolly

Member
Gala said:
Any opinions on the Ascendancy iOS version? I watched some videos on YouTube and it looked really good. Looks more complex than Starbase Orion and it seems to have diplomacy in it.

So what would GAF recommend? Ascendancy, Starbase Orion or Distant Star
Click to expand...

Each do different things and have varying strengths and weaknesses. Ascendancy has, as far as I'm concerned, a hideous interface. The UI needed some drastic attention, and despite a few updates, not much has changed. It's a great game, but when you've got Starbase Orion to compare it to, it's hard not to feel like it's a slight chore to play.

Manax said:
i just picked up distant star and did a normal game with 4 races, while it looks good it was pretty damn simple, no way to win other than kill all the other races and basically the aim is to generate more money (through building structures on your planet farm, bank, research lab and stardock are about it with some upgrades for each) so you can just buy battleships to send to destroy the other races

i didnt really enjoy it that much
Click to expand...

But that's where I think the difference is...Distant Star is a turn-based Galcon, not a traditional 4X game. It's quick to play, and on a "ludicrous" map with a swathe of AI players, it can get quite tactical in ship distribution. I dunno, I certainly don't think it beats Starbase Orion - the best damn asynchronous strategy title on the platform, for my money - but I also don't think it's trying to.


soldat7 said:
So many excellent games get passed right on by on this platform. And then you have the success of the fremiums...ugh.
Click to expand...

Amen to that sentiment. Some of the most stellar games on iOS, deep and enjoyable games, get bypassed for exactly the kind of titles who are responsible for the platform's stigma. And then we have to defend iOS gaming, with detractors pointing to these flashy, relatively light experiences - not that there's anything inherently wrong with that - as how "mobile gaming" is a waif-like experience set against "true, core gaming". Gives me the shits that there's no balance.
 
F

Foob

Member
Jedeye Sniv said:
I really love Caverns of Minos, it's easily Minter's best since Minotaur Rescue. Has a nice difficulty curve, some hilarious pickups and enemies and perfect controls on iPad and iCade. It looks janky in screenshots (although that's on purpose) but it has a real charm in motion. I'm currently number 6 on the Novice scoreboard, come at me bros :D
Click to expand...

Yup. Definitely my favorite of his, love everything about it, especially the level objectives to capture.

It's tough trying to not kiss all the goats though :D

Have the hardest time dealing with the turrets that shoot the homing bullets, also.

Got a million on my first run, no idea if that's good or not, as my wifi died mid-play.
 
M

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
Jackson said:
My opinion is that Whale Trail is not even a good game let alone a great game. It's boring and the art/music is so sugary sweet it turns people (even girls) off. The theme also makes no sense to the mass market (flying whale in clouds? how does the casual gamer identify with that?) and the game over all has little reason to replay after a minute or two.
Click to expand...

I never played it personally, so I can't comment there.


Also traditional marketing/advertising has no place in the iOS space. It doesn't help returns at all.
Click to expand...

Seems like they had a very large advertising budget which is a mistake for a 99c game, and indeed any game that doesn't have a very high ARPU.


That's such a stupid blanket statement. Your "genius" game fails, therefor it's not you that's the problem, it's the market and thus all other titles will be failures as well? Hubris much?
Click to expand...

Yeah, big call to make off of one game.
 
wolfmat

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
Honestly, I'm nearing completion with my game and I have no idea how to market it to at least give it a fair chance. And I've been doing research for a long time now. The information about right and wrong marketing strategies out there is so conflicting and anecdotal, I might as well not read it.

I guess there is no baseline strategy. You just do what you can do in the confines of your budget and hope for the best. In that regard, iOS and the App Store are problematic.
 
C

conman

Member
Jackson said:
My opinion is that Whale Trail is not even a good game let alone a great game. It's boring and the art/music is so sugary sweet it turns people (even girls) off. The theme also makes no sense to the mass market (flying whale in clouds? how does the casual gamer identify with that?) and the game over all has little reason to replay after a minute or two. Also traditional marketing/advertising has no place in the iOS space. It doesn't help returns at all.
Click to expand...
I don't think they were going for "sugary sweet." It's clearly aiming for a Yellow Submarine, psychedelic vibe (song, visuals, flying whale, blue meanie-like enemies, etc). The problem is that the generation of (older) folks this most appeals to are also the least likely to play it or even know it exists. It's a fairly niche concept and presentation. Not a mainstream seller.

If it were genuinely "sugary sweet," I think it would have done much better.
 
N

neojubei

Will drop pants for Sony.
With Soul Calibur coming to iOS tomorrow I wonder what other Dreamcast games Sea might consider bringing to iOS; hopefully Jet Set/Grind Radio.
 
A

AngmarsKing701

Member
wolfmat said:
Honestly, I'm nearing completion with my game and I have no idea how to market it to at least give it a fair chance. And I've been doing research for a long time now. The information about right and wrong marketing strategies out there is so conflicting and anecdotal, I might as well not read it.

I guess there is no baseline strategy. You just do what you can do in the confines of your budget and hope for the best. In that regard, iOS and the App Store are problematic.
Click to expand...

I'll be having the same problem when I try to market my book later this year. I've been reading up on marketing strategies for Kindle books. Some of those might actually help you as well. You definitely are going to need to start with word of mouth. Friends, family. I think GAF has been pretty welcoming to folks putting info out there about a new book or game they've completed. Create a FB account just for the game. Those types of things. It will definitely take some work on your part, but the good news about some of these is that they're free.

How effective they are really depends on how well you can get those who like your game to pass on their views of it and get others excited about it.

Good luck!
 
V

VALIS

Member
Does Big Fish Games release one new game every day or something? Holy cow. Fuck them and their find the hidden amulet for $5.99 bullshit. Cloggin' up the store.
 
GeekyDad

GeekyDad

Member
So, so glad I nabbed Squids. What a delightful game. I almost passed on this one, as it didn't look particularly remarkable. This one's got me grinning from ear to ear, though.
 
L

LuchaShaq

Banned
Jackson said:
The reason the game sold poorly is because it simply wasn't good
Click to expand...

Hit the nail on the head. Seemed like they made a generic run right game and then tried to force a meme into it.

Hey guys guess what our game has flying whales. HOW CRAZY IS THAT OMG!



What's the difference between SF and SF volt?
 
M

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
wolfmat said:
Honestly, I'm nearing completion with my game and I have no idea how to market it to at least give it a fair chance. And I've been doing research for a long time now. The information about right and wrong marketing strategies out there is so conflicting and anecdotal, I might as well not read it.

I guess there is no baseline strategy. You just do what you can do in the confines of your budget and hope for the best. In that regard, iOS and the App Store are problematic.
Click to expand...

In my opinion, there is a baseline strategy, but it does require resources.

Assuming an appropriately priced quality product, in rough order of importance, the following things seem to influence sales the most

1. Apple feature promotion
2. New and Noteworthy promotion
3. Cross promotion from within other apps
4. Everything else

If you can then get past a critical mass of sales, word of mouth starts kicking in tp push sales further.

Most developers spend most of their time in 4, where the return on effort is low. And if they are doing cross promotion for 3, they are mainly doing it in other peoples apps where the cost makes it prohibitive.

The most powerful assets you can have are a great product, strong relationship with Apple, and a large number of your own users that you can promote your new games too. Unfortunately, it can be challenging for independent developers to obtain all of these even over time.


PikPok is publishing a title from a smaller developer in February. Its a great relationship because they get to leverage our visibility with Apple, userbase, expertise, and marketing capability, and we get to expand our portfolio with another great quality product. I'm expecting these kind of collaborations more and more where smaller studios pool resources and talent together to create an opportunity greater than the sum of the parts.
 
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