Yeah, I think the headline of the article puts people in the wrong mindset to read what's actually going on, but I don't remember too much of what it said since I've read more than a few things about the topic at this point. It basically comes down to the fact that GC controllers are just inconsistent. It also doesn't matter unless you're a top 5 player that wants a better chance in their matches against other top 5 players.
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Does competitive Melee have a future?
- Thread starter Raging Spaniard
- Start date
Yeah, I think the headline of the article puts people in the wrong mindset to read what's actually going on, but I don't remember too much of what it said since I've read more than a few things about the topic at this point. It basically comes down to the fact that GC controllers are just inconsistent. It also doesn't matter unless you're a top 5 player that wants a better chance in their matches against other top 5 players.
Project M isn't exactly like Melee and everybody was happy with that. Similar physics, sure. Not exactly the same but very close. Same controllers, yeah. I don't see why either of these are unreasonable expectations when the same is basically true of any other eSports fighter franchise.
Different "exploits" (something that literally any other fighting game calls "tech"). Different characters. Different stages. People loved it. It was popular. Melee players moved on until the game got more or less shut down.
Nobody's begging for "pouring money and attention and support". The only thing people ask for is an HD port and/or a sequel that isn't a completely different game mechanically. Kind of like Project M, which is a great game that's well liked and got people to "move on" from Melee for several years.
Jesus christ, what the fuck is wrong with you? You're saying you want people to fucking die because they like a game you don't and succeeded in pushing their community to the mainstream?
I've been going to nationals with both Smash 4 AND Melee for about two years now and have never met anyone as outright antagonistic and toxic as you. Neither from the Melee side or the Smash 4 side. I was always a Smash 4 player until very recently and my group of friends have gotten along great with the Melee players - we have tournaments together weekly and although the community's are relatively separate we're all friends and there's always some overlap.
Smash 4 sounds so important to you apparently but I'm willing to bet $10 Paypal right now you can't beat me in a set online. Because I'm willing to bet I've played the game more seriously than you, for longer than you, and have been more a part of that game's community than you. I know Smash 4 and I like Smash 4.
"Seriously i'd rather have the entire scene die and everyone who refuses to move on to go with it, sooner the better"... What a gross thing to say
Yeah, same.
FriskyrumX
Banned
Pretty much. Some people here are so disconnected on the Smash scene, it's funny. People here are painting Melee players as some elitist douchebags that hate all the games that are not Melee and despise everyone else, but that's not true lmao. Sure, some of them may not like the mechanics of another and prefer one over the other, but hate is far from it.
You guys are painting that narrative, not them.
Case in point.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
Ping Pong can exist, but exist quietly to yourselves and stop with the entitlement. Wimbledon owes you nothing and has moved on. I ain't hurt cause you guys still wanna play ping pong, ain't losing no sleep over ping pong players you do you. I doubt Ping Pong will last much longer anyways when they run outta broken paddles or the pro's retire. I give it 3 more years, and at the very least will stop seeing the same 10 people hailing Ping Pong as the best thing ever and why its not getting supported like its bigger iteration.Melee can exist, but exist quietly to yourselves and stop with the entitlement. Nintendo owes you nothing and has moved on. I ain't hurt cause you guys still wanna play melee, ain't losing no sleep over melee players you do you. I doubt melee will last much longer anyways when they run outta broken controllers or the pro's retire. I give it 3 more years, and at the very least will stop seeing the same 10 people hailing melee as the best thing ever and why its not getting supported like its newest iteration.
Anyone looking to getting into smash, i feel sorry for if they go to a smash forum that host both melee and any other smash, good way to turn that person off of smash completely. Melee hurts the smash community as a whole.
Anyone looking to getting into ping pong, i feel sorry for if they go to a ping pong forum that host both ping pong and tennis, good way to turn that person off of ping pong completely. Ping pong hurts the ball whacking community as a whole.
LMAO easy there you little fire cracker.. i didn't say i want people to actually die over a game, just that the game dies in a fire and is forgotten about. so those people playing melee are forced to either move on or drop the game completely. And can you beat me in a set? hmm who knows, but i can tell you i don't give 2 shits if you can or not doesnt change my humble opinion
lol big man gonna 10$ Anyways just correcting that one part i don't want people to die. So settle down cowboy, me saying these things shouldn't hurt your scene too much if at all.
Ping Pong can exist, but exist quietly to yourselves and stop with the entitlement. Wimbledon owes you nothing and has moved on. I ain't hurt cause you guys still wanna play ping pong, ain't losing no sleep over ping pong players you do you. I doubt Ping Pong will last much longer anyways when they run outta broken paddles or the pro's retire. I give it 3 more years, and at the very least will stop seeing the same 10 people hailing Ping Pong as the best thing ever and why its not getting supported like its bigger iteration.
Anyone looking to getting into ping pong, i feel sorry for if they go to a ping pong forum that host both ping pong and tennis, good way to turn that person off of ping pong completely. Ping pong hurts the ball whacking community as a whole.
lol this guy gets it!? whats wrong with everyone else. Tennis is the shit and ping pong is holding it back.
lol this is fun.. but just to point out again. I DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO DIE CAUSE THEY PLAY MELEE!!!!!
I don't agree much with your opening words, but Smash 4 is gaining popularity. That simple fact will diminish Melee's standing over time. I think a rerelease of Melee, VC-like, if it landed with the right timing could help, and a graphical/content/balance update would obviously be huge, but no guarantee it could outlast a Smash 5, for example.
Geno Breaker
Banned
LMAO easy there you little fire cracker.. i didn't say i want people to actually die over a game, just that the game dies in a fire and is forgotten about. so those people playing melee are forced to either move on or drop the game completely. And can you beat me in a set? hmm who knows, but i can tell you i don't give 2 shits if you can or not doesnt change my humble opinion
Anyways just correcting that one part i don't want people to die. So settle down cowboy, me saying these things shouldn't hurt your scene too much if at all.
lol this guy gets it!? whats wrong with everyone else. Tennis is the shit and ping pong is holding it back.
lol this is fun.. but just to point out again. I DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO DIE CAUSE THEY PLAY MELEE!!!!!
Do you realize this comes off as flamebait?
LMAO easy there you little fire cracker.. i didn't say i want people to actually die over a game, just that the game dies in a fire and is forgotten about. so those people playing melee are forced to either move on or drop the game completely. And can you beat me in a set? hmm who knows, but i can tell you i don't give 2 shits if you can or not doesnt change my humble opinion
Anyways just correcting that one part i don't want people to die. So settle down cowboy, me saying these things shouldn't hurt your scene too much if at all.
Everyone can know if you're up for it. Smash 4 really matters to you apparently so I'm just curious if it actually is or if you're just talk.
I don't really give a shit if you like the game or not I just think you and your attitude toxic and would enjoy beating you at a video game that apparently matters to you. I'm not the one who said those words in the first place, you are.
DarkConfidant
Member
Except when everyone gets mad that it's not the same, there's input lag, and hit boxes and glitches have been adjusted.
stan423321
Member
I don't think this is nearly as "simple" for Nintendo as it sounds because Project M did not exist in a void next to Melee. It was the "next best thing" to past Melee players that got burned on Brawl. A hypothetical situation in which Brawl, as released by Nintendo, is basically what we know of Project M, or more realistically, is something closer to Project M, could have resulted in Melee getting abandoned, or it could have resulted with someone developing Project Double M, or it could have led to Melee fans collectively deciding to stick to Melee faster than it happened in our reality. To paraphrase Chronicles of Narnia, you never know what would have happened, what you may know is what did or will. Exodus of PM players towards Melee did start before the project takedown and tournament denials being things.
By Smash 4 release the Melee community has grown cautious. Things that would have probably been just accepted in pre-Brawl world are way more prone to detract Melee players from supporting a new game, because by now their default way of thinking is that Nintendo can't top Melee, as supported by previous games not doing it.
An interestingly attractive element of proprietary games as opposed to "open" ones is the rule arbitration. In chess, there have been people playing with mods of sorts to make the game interesting once it started to get boring to them, and these mods eventually became recognized as official game rules of some organizations, composed of players. This is not the case with, say, Street Fighter V, where whatever Capcom says are the rules of SFV, is the rules of SFV... when you play online, at least, since that encourages version updates. The negative side to this is that you can't try out changes to the rules even if they feel blatantly obvious to you. The positive side to this is that players are not tasked with determining whether the rules of the game they play are broken by some new strategy, or is that a new and exciting consequence of the rules that does not invalidate them. The community decision is limited to playing SFV or not playing SFV. By sponsoring SFV and not older games, Capcom pushes the earlier option.
If you wanted to make a Smash game that would bring the Melee crowd over, you would have to make a game that is interesting to that crowd, but there is no obvious criterion for determining whether it is or it isn't, besides the "is like Melee" test, at which Melee wins by default, as it is the arbiter. Of course each individual member of Melee crowd has some sort of preferences that could be fulfilled in some sort of opposition to that test, but for crowd as a whole to move on, you would probably need something more arbitrary. Now, Nintendo could throw in some extras for the tournament scene in general in order to make Melee less attractive, the tricky part is, they didn't really do this before, so it could meet a pretty cynical reaction.
I think what will eventually break Melee will come from the inside instead of the outside. Mass hardware failures, huge community scandal, a strategy that makes 90% of matches boring, something along these lines.
They also like to suck the fun out of the newer installments. I recall a reaction video of a notable person in the Smash community watching all the new stages for 4. He was laughing his ass off saying BANNED to all the fun stages that didn't match to the rules and requirements eSports Smash players adhere to.
Like geez man.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
well if they want to compete then maybe they should improve enough to take sets off. it's not like it's any different in other games lol.
Everyone can know if you're up for it. Smash 4 really matters to you apparently so I'm just curious if it actually is or if you're just talk.
I don't really give a shit if you like the game or not I just think you and your attitude toxic and would enjoy beating you at a video game that apparently matters to you.
I enjoy thee smash series, and enjoyed melee when it came out. even still enjoyed it when brawl came out. but by that time i can see where the community was heading. and it just got worse. I still play smash 4 every now and then but not super into it anymore. The entire scene matters to me still though and i want it to be good. but i do believe Melee players or at least the ones i run into on forums are normally just putting down the game and anyone who thinks smash 4 could be better then it. Not gonna argue what actually is, but from what i've seen and experience the melee part of the smash scene just seems to be getting worse. So yeah so sry i dont take melee or smash as serious as you guys anymore but i can still tell a toxic community when i see one. and Melee and unfortunately smash as a whole is falling into that for me at least.
I will admit though i was acting way more childish then i should have with the responses so i'll apologize for that, since it got people thinking the wrong thing.
Edit: also melee is a slog to watch soo booorrrinngg... >_>
Literally the only person being toxic in this thread is you bud.
That video is hilarious and he actually likes Smash 4, he's a commentator for it.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
These topics are always the exact same thing. People unfamiliar with the Melee community reciting the same old tired memes and hot takes without any interest in gaining an understanding of anything about the game or the community.
"Dead game, nobody cares about it, they need to move on"
"Meta is nothing but bugs and glitches, wavecheating and fun-canceling."
"Melee players don't want anything that isn't a bit-perfect replica of [NTSC] Melee"
etc etc.
At least the classic "When will Melee players stop wavedashing into my house, tying me down, and forcing me to play their rules every day?!" is basically dead at this point.
"Dead game, nobody cares about it, they need to move on"
"Meta is nothing but bugs and glitches, wavecheating and fun-canceling."
"Melee players don't want anything that isn't a bit-perfect replica of [NTSC] Melee"
etc etc.
At least the classic "When will Melee players stop wavedashing into my house, tying me down, and forcing me to play their rules every day?!" is basically dead at this point.
This is a really well written post.
I think it is a really interesting conversation. You're right that the assumption, while common, is still just that- an assumption. I will say, however, in defense of the Project M exodus, that Project M suffers many more caveats than Melee just by virtue of being what it is and that was beginning to be apparent by that time. It also suffered the same weaknesses Melee did in that it was only possible to play on the Wii, with the preferred method also being on a CRT. If it had been on a more modern console and enjoyed the benefits that those offered things may or may not have been different, but again, we can only really guess.
Melee will die one day, it's inevitable. I don't think it'll be anything as dramatic as what you say, just from an eventual loss of interest through aging. It'll be as alive (maybe a bit more) as old Street Fighters are maybe, but yeah the popularity and growth the scene is experiencing now isn't going to be sustainable for much longer without an HD port.
I do agree with you that the community is also going to be much more cautious of change moving forward just because 15 years is a really long time, haha. That much is definitely true, and I also agree that this can kind of be a negative thing even now (Smashbox). That being said though, I still think it's a stretch to assume that any proper Melee rerelease or sequel would be dead on arrival because of stubborn Melee players. It's just not true. Lots of Melee players play netplay today in spite of its imperfections, lots of people played PM back in the day (and even now! Lucky and Hbox entered and placed highly at the most recent PM tournament), I've seen people using monitors on Wiis with HDMI adapters before (I do this too actually just so my setup can be a little mobile), and so on. The narrative that Melee players are all a bunch of stubborn, elitist old men is rooted in Brawl drama from like 2009 and just isn't true anymore, if it ever was.
This one kills me because people still play PAL at huge tournaments, including US players lol.
Wasn't talking about this thread just smash threads in general, and dont know how i was being toxic, said my piece people didn't agree with it, not like i was forcing them too, also a person thought i actually meant to for people to die over a video game, which i found silly but corrected myself and apologized for the misunderstanding. soo meh guess im literally the only toxic person in smash threads
also im not your BUDDY, PAL!
You act as if the smash 4 competitive community play on those stages lmao. They dont, they have less stages than melee, go figure.
Lyon N. Laap
Member
This isn't even true anymore outside of Armada. The top 6 may have remained the top 6 for quite a long time now, but their relative positions and how they are favored in certain MU's against one another is constantly in flux.
And new blood can certainly compete with the top. Zain, a post documentary player, sent Leffen, a top 5 player, to the losers bracket in a crazy hype set. Chudat, who is super old blood from the early days, has recently crawled back to the top 10. The gods aren't even as invincible as they once were (Armada being the sole exception) and they have dropped games and sets to top 10 and top 20 members.
Edit; And in terms of Finals, we've had numerous major tournaments this year where a non top 6 was in Grand Finals, and one where they came in from winners side. And a few smaller tournaments where a singular member of the top 6 have lost the whole thing.
Diprosalic
Banned
do they have to?
Stages that were legal in Brawl aren't even legal in Smash 4 anymore which is just as funny tbh.
Delfino, Halberd, Castle Siege. "Jank" is the word I see Smash 4 players toss around a lot.
Also Duck Hunt is banned now, and Lylat got banned for like 2 seconds before people changed their minds.
I will never understand "you should stop playing x game because it's old." Do people who make this complaint also hate backwards compatibility and virtual console? Why do you even care what games other people play?
You don't need to be a competitive smash player to have a laugh at how silly and difficult to play on some of the stages in smash 4 are.
You don't need to be a competitive smash player to have a laugh at how silly and difficult to play on some of the stages in smash 4 are.
Smash 4 easter eggs show up in anime, therefore Melee is dead.
Hungrybox is such a great troll, in and out of game. Between him and Leffen we're lucky to have such great villains to love to hate.
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M0nochromatic
Member
God damn do I miss Project M. Best experience I've ever had with Smash Bros.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
Chronospherics
Member
A future for the next few years? Sure, but long term? No. The games becoming increasingly inaccessible on several fronts (as the level of play gets higher, it becomes harder to penetrate a high level of play, and also, gradually the game and equipment becomes less easy to come by).
The latter can be addressed with a rerelease, the former, cannot. So it will die, but I wouldn't like to suggest I know when. If I were forced to guess then I'd say within the next 5-7 years, but probably dropping off major tournament scenes within the next 2-3. Nintendo seem to be pushing their own competitive games now (SMash 4, Arms, Splatoon etc.) which will also shift some players away from melee.
The latter can be addressed with a rerelease, the former, cannot. So it will die, but I wouldn't like to suggest I know when. If I were forced to guess then I'd say within the next 5-7 years, but probably dropping off major tournament scenes within the next 2-3. Nintendo seem to be pushing their own competitive games now (SMash 4, Arms, Splatoon etc.) which will also shift some players away from melee.
WaterAstro
Member
It would be interesting to see if they can implement a "Melee Mode" where it the physics, skill sets, and roster are the same as Melee, but it would be on the latest Smash as an extra mode.
Of course, Sakurai will probably think his new ideas will be superior and don't want Melee in the latest games.
Of course, Sakurai will probably think his new ideas will be superior and don't want Melee in the latest games.
Renna Hazel
Member
Everyone can know if you're up for it. Smash 4 really matters to you apparently so I'm just curious if it actually is or if you're just talk.
I don't really give a shit if you like the game or not I just think you and your attitude toxic and would enjoy beating you at a video game that apparently matters to you. I'm not the one who said those words in the first place, you are.
Smash 4 matters to me, I'll play you.
How much Melee do you watch? If it's just the top 8 at big tournaments, I suggest you try to go out of your way to watch matches from top 64 and round 2 of pools from national tournaments just once. There's tons of cool matchups from unique players that you get to see, and there are a ton of people dedicated to Melee so people at that level are still really mindblowingly good at the game.
I feel like the biggest problem with this is that they'd have to do balancing shit for both this and the regular mode. IIRC very early into Smash 4's life people came up with an alternative ruleset that involved an obscure equipment setup that made the game faster, but it didn't take off both because it was really jank and really unbalanced.
Edit: Wait I just realized you said roster. So it would basically be Melee HD just as an extra mode? I've thought about this idea before and really like it, but it would have to be a 1-to-1 conversion or close.
Frozenprince
Banned
I hope it does for the purely selfish reason of wanting an affordable GC controller to play Sunshine with.
TOP BOGARDING THE CONTROLLERS DAMMIT.
TOP BOGARDING THE CONTROLLERS DAMMIT.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
This is anything but humble.
Its split because Melees success was an accident that Nintendo will never intentionally repeat, and its not a similar game. Aside from HBox spur of the moment speech, who is "shouting at Nintendo"? We got here on our own and likely will continue to.
its not complicated.
I'm good, not fiending for mm's. It was a response to the stuff he was saying. I quit Smash 4 about a month ago.
goldenpp72
Member
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
The biggest problem with a Melee mode in the next Smash game is that it would be completely redundant. The only thing stopping Sakurai/Nintendo from making a game that would appeal to everyone, including Melee players, is themselves.
Is that seriously a question? Of course not. It'd help tremendously, but if the past 16 years have demonstrated anything, it's that the scene will continue to stay fairly healthy. We'll see if that continues, but for now I see no reason to worry about its future.
notworksafe
Member
This is true. I guess people who prefer competitive Smash 4 over Melee mechanics would want the standard mechanics to return but the average casual player clearly doesn't care much about what movement options are like.
Nose Master
Member
It's a scene revolving around an obsolete version of a fighting game series. At best, it has the momentum it does right now. What would they do, release Melee 2? Smash fans are some of the hardest to please in the FGC, which is one of the whinier competitive gaming scenes. Why would they pour development resources into that? For a couple thousand people?
It's a fanservice game that got a weird cult following because of bugs. No, it does not have a future.
It's a fanservice game that got a weird cult following because of bugs. No, it does not have a future.
Smash is a party game.
Lol. I get how it looks but it really wasn't an open challenge, I'm just okay at the game. I just really didn't like the "fuck melee because it ruins smash 4 for some reason and smash 4 is the game that matters mentality" because the two have coexisted just fine and I want to qualify that by proving I know a lot about Smash 4 and played it a lot. I've just personally gotten tired of it and very recently picked up Melee.
Yeah all the "Melee mode" thing would do would fracture the Smash 5 community. It's a really weird situation and there's no ideal solution.
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