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Can't bring myself to watch The Force Awakens more than a couple of times
- Thread starter Gunslinger
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ryutaro's mama
Member
Huh...I totally missed this video earlier in the thread. I never saw it before.
I can think of a few friends to pass this on to.
Thanks for posting!
Whoosh....
uncelestial said:
The Force Awakens rifts off more than just A New Hope cinematographically, it does off the whole of the original trilogy.
There was a quote I once read and I'm paraphrasing, that audience cannot accept too much or too little change. Too much and it is considered too radical, jarring and not true to it's origins, too little and it will be considered uninspired, samey and boring. Unfortunately for me personally TFA is easily in the latter camp
From my point of view I think TFA manage to do both. Quite a feat.
Rey using the mind trick completely cheapened it to me. I remember when we were introduced to it when Obiwan used it in ANH. He explains to Luke that the force can have a powerful effect on the weak minded. We get a feeling that Obiwan is a really powerful guy and that the force is a mysterious thing he is well trained in. A literal wizard. Luke listens with an expression on his face of a student being taught, but nothing more is said of it. Obiwan is later killed by Vader and Luke eventually realizes he will have to face him, and he is beaten but spared by Vader himself even though he'd believed himself to be a Jedi and thought he had trained for it.
Time passes and we see Luke arrive in RoTJ at Jabba's palace, in a cloak. The cloak and black outfit gives us the image of both Obiwan and Vader and you immediately felt like he was more powerful. We don't know what he's been doing in between but all the sudden he is carrying himself with more confidence. When guards approach him they are rendered helpless without Luke even touching them. He speaks to Fortuna in a familiar way and Fortuna simply obeys. We realize, though it hasn't come up since the first film, that now he has even learned old Ben's mind trick. These are moments we start to get a feel that Luke has become a real Jedi at that point. He is doing what once he couldn't even understand and with apparent ease. We watched him evolve into what we'd been shown through Kenobi into a real Jedi and possibly a match to even Vader.
Rey hears the force exists and in an hour of her life passing just decides to use the same ability. Please help me contain my sense of wonder at how impressed I was.
Time passes and we see Luke arrive in RoTJ at Jabba's palace, in a cloak. The cloak and black outfit gives us the image of both Obiwan and Vader and you immediately felt like he was more powerful. We don't know what he's been doing in between but all the sudden he is carrying himself with more confidence. When guards approach him they are rendered helpless without Luke even touching them. He speaks to Fortuna in a familiar way and Fortuna simply obeys. We realize, though it hasn't come up since the first film, that now he has even learned old Ben's mind trick. These are moments we start to get a feel that Luke has become a real Jedi at that point. He is doing what once he couldn't even understand and with apparent ease. We watched him evolve into what we'd been shown through Kenobi into a real Jedi and possibly a match to even Vader.
Rey hears the force exists and in an hour of her life passing just decides to use the same ability. Please help me contain my sense of wonder at how impressed I was.
WadiumArcadium
Member
She doesn't just 'decide' to use it. Kylo gets into Rey's head using the Force to retrieve the map. He underestimates her and she fights back, learning some other ways she can use the Force in the process. It's not like she perfected the technique on her first try either. It didn't even seem like it would work at first.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
For a group of people so unimpressed with almost everything it really doesn't take much to send you guys reeling, full speed, into total hyperbole and chest-clutching, vapors-catching "well I never"s
The meltdowns have occurred primarily in response to me, or directly AT me. At least one weird kid got banned for it.
Then again, considering people's relationships with analysis here, the notion that you're misreading (probably willfully) a thing and overreacting (badly) to it shouldn't seem all that implausible either, right?
Maybe someone will make a 10 minute video to share and suddenly it'll all make sense.
I mean... I share the same opinion, but now that I see this infamous text in the flesh, I have to say: This is just bullshit lol
Whoever made this should feel ashamed. A disgrace for our cause. Sad!
uncelestial
Member
Yes, Bobby. It's the children who are wrong.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
How is this even supposed to work as a joke response
Anyway yes: You're wrong. Kids suck at discovering their shitty, largely empty opinions are busted. They get upset and flail at me for it.
What do you want me to do about that
uncelestial
Member
Well it's hard to explain, but you being completely oblivious is key.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Of this threads long, interesting, collected cast of characters, the idea I'm playing "the oblivious" one is pretty fuckin' ridiculous, though.
How's that flailing working out for you right now
How's that flailing working out for you right now
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Are you serious?
Sure there's granualty but if your acting like someones opinion is wrong based on an inherently subjective matter then some one has clearly jumped shark into shear nonsense.
Sure you may not agree with an opinon and majority educated people said subject also disagree then obviously feel free to point on such. But to act like an absolute authority on it sounds like something has gone wrong along the way unless your not actually being serious.
Absolute authority on matters such as this does not exist. Hell absolute authority on plenty of accepted scientific facts are can be murky so this is a bridge way too far.
uncelestial
Member
This is exactly what I would expect you to both think and say.
C'mon, Bobby, don't go out like this fam.
I'm willing to believe that staff isn't the only melee weapon Rey has had to use while growing up. And in the ensuing fight she seems to use the lightsaber in a street fight sort of way. She doesn't seem to have the level of control she'll probably learn under Luke.
The mind trick is the only thing I have issue with. Ren's interrogation for me wasn't quite enough for Rey to suddenly learn how to give specific commands.
Everything else Rey knows is explained in some non-movie content like comics or something -- while growing up scavenging scrap she got her hands on a flight computer or something and used it to educate herself. I think she mentions the flight simulators in TFA.
Inferno313
Banned
It's almost comically absurd. This is a site where totally fine films like The Dark Knight Rises and Rogue One are "trash". Modern classics like Boyhood, Moonlight, and Fury Road are "overrated".
But don't you dare besmirch the good name of Speed Racer. Dear god, not Speed Racer!
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Huh.
hm
hey now, looks like we're getting some—
—oh well then.
Don't go out like what.
What the fuck are you even talking about right now.
This is like the third post to me, specifically about me, that doesn't make any goddamn sense as either a joke or a criticism. You're just saying things.
Like, I can tell what you want these posts to be, but you're not actually getting there.
So again: How's this flailing working out for you.
(spoilers: it isn't. Knock it off)
I think you forgot that Lucas made the prequels.
Neff
Member
No, I'm including those too.
The prequels are frustratingly self aware and contemporary though. Crammed full of literally every OT character that could plausibly be in them. I don't see what's timeless or romantic about a film full of bad CG sets either.
This is never established anywhere ahead of this scene and comes off as a cheap and lazy way of just giving a character powers, and it is handled very poorly. Are we saying she witnessed him using mind tricks in this vision and then just comprehended how they work, its applications, and then she does just decide to try it out five minutes later ... My, what specific and convenient information to acquire instead of anything else in his mind from his entire life, just then, with no pretext, and just in time to use it to escape. This is not 60's Batman. We're just intended to buy that she figures out how to defend against a skill she's never even imagined or faced, not only resist but then turn it on it's own user, overpower his mind and then scroll through his mind and read his force powers in a total of 30 seconds ?
You're right, difficult skills you just heard about that take years of training can often take two attempts ... come on now lol.
I'll forgive them if they have a narrative reason for her to be so proficient, she's literally a savant. So she better be a reincarnation of Anakin that retains "memory" on how to use the force or simply the force incarnate like The Ones.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Star Wars brings out the anger it seems.
Y'all know that's a path to the dark side, right?
Fucking Siths the lot of ya. Always dealin' in absolutes.
Y'all know that's a path to the dark side, right?
Fucking Siths the lot of ya. Always dealin' in absolutes.
Yeah, I've asked about that same thing in the rumor/spoiler thread for Last Jedi but people are saying there likely won't be anything like that. I'd be fine with it if it turned out she'd already been trained and had had her mind wiped or somehow forgotten or something. Maybe she had an accident as a child or a health problem that needed mechanical/droid components inside her brain to help her and it allowed her to have her memory erased or something. At least that'd also explain how she seems to understand droid language just for the heck of it and pick up advanced skills in under 30 seconds too, lol. Actually Rey turning out to be partly machine could be interesting. Or some tie to Anakin or something. Anything would be better than what we have now which is for the most part plot dictated conveniences.
Chuckie
Member
Hahaha. 1000 x this.
For two years we had a monthly TDKR thread where the OP pretended not to know how GAF thought about it and opening with: Is it me or was TDKR really bad? And then 200 replies of people agreeing with him (which was probably the reason the thread was made)
And on the opposite end you have the LTTP: Speed Racer topic, with the OP saying: This film didn't get really good reviews....but I think it was a delight! Am I the only one? And again 200 replies of people agreeing with him (which was probably the reason the thread was made)
This is getting ridiculous now.
The film SHOWED us what was going on. Clearly. We saw Rey being mentally tortured, we saw the moment she realised she could tap into Ren's mind... and then when she tried to use it on a stormtrooper, it took her a few tries.
And this was after a scene where they set up Ren's mastery of it.
So...
Set up
Subversion of set up
Pay off.
I'm sorry if it's somehow objectionable to you because Rey is a "female masturbatory power study", but it's not TFA's fault if you object to really crystal clear conveying of set up, escalation and pay off.
Honestly, little in this thread convinces me that there's not a sexist as Hell undertone to people getting angry over Rey being a force natural. Tony Stark built this in a cave with a box of scraps is fine, but a woman can't be good with the force...
Mister Wilhelm
Member
Other than Rogue One it's the only SW movie I've never rewatched.
not psycho
Member
The mind trick scene is even worse than I remembered. She isn't even looking at him, he's some distance behind her, and as an afterthought she blurts out "and you will drop your weapon." So of course: "and I will drop my weapon."
Movies aren't math formulas. I'm not saying 3x + y/2 = The Force Awakens fucking sucks. I can't prove that a fictional power shouldn't be written that way.
Nevertheless, it does suck, and it shouldn't be written that way.
Exactly. And Luke is speaking in an insinuating manner; the idea of a reward dangles in the air without anything specific being offered. There is a mystery to it; we don't know precisely how much of this is necessary, or how much is Luke's personal dark sense of humor. He is wiser, more cunning, and he inhabits a world where wisdom and cunning are important qualities.
Rey occupies a world where making Star Wars fans laugh "a jedi mind trick! HA!" is the only goal, so if she says "cartwheel down the hall to the Death Star's self destruct button and press it" into a loudspeaker and the entire complement of stormtroopers winds up crashing into a pile in front of the door, evoking a chuckle from the audience, it's perfectly fine. It doesn't aim to be anything more than that.
Movies aren't math formulas. I'm not saying 3x + y/2 = The Force Awakens fucking sucks. I can't prove that a fictional power shouldn't be written that way.
Nevertheless, it does suck, and it shouldn't be written that way.
Exactly. And Luke is speaking in an insinuating manner; the idea of a reward dangles in the air without anything specific being offered. There is a mystery to it; we don't know precisely how much of this is necessary, or how much is Luke's personal dark sense of humor. He is wiser, more cunning, and he inhabits a world where wisdom and cunning are important qualities.
Rey occupies a world where making Star Wars fans laugh "a jedi mind trick! HA!" is the only goal, so if she says "cartwheel down the hall to the Death Star's self destruct button and press it" into a loudspeaker and the entire complement of stormtroopers winds up crashing into a pile in front of the door, evoking a chuckle from the audience, it's perfectly fine. It doesn't aim to be anything more than that.
Yikes. Rey's gender has nothing to do with any of the problems we've been discussing, and frankly that's a hollow way to try to discredit people's criticisms of how she's written. Having her do that after "a scene where they set up Ren's mastery of it" is more indicative that she should not be equipped to defend against something like that. It also undermines him even further as a threat to her if he is someone who has mastered something yet is being countered by someone who doesn't even understand what it is.
"Set up
Subversion of set up
Pay off."
Yeah a payoff doesn't really have the same effect when it all happens in a 30 second time frame versus happening over the course of three films where we watch the character evolve into that role and earn those payoffs instead of just on the fly countering force powers both we and the character have never even seen before. You don't get any sense of progression when it's handled that way. And saying blanket statements suggesting that people who critique the writing or the character are sexist is uncalled for.
The Librarian
Banned
Ah, to be able to say that sincerely. I wish I lived in your world.
WadiumArcadium
Member
Trying to apply logic to Star Wars. Now there's a hole I don't want to go down.
Yeah. I don't encounter much of those kind of people in my life. I know there are unfortunately people that hate characters simply for being women. But I'd say it's not a very good practice to group anyone with criticism of a female character into that category. When someone has brought up a lot of points that have nothing to do with that element, it comes off as ad hominem, and it's not conducive to an in depth discussion ¯\_(ツ
_/¯.I just noticed a lot of things on my first viewing that didn't sit right for me. I'll be rewatching it again soon anyway and my list of curiosities isn't isolated to Rey. I'm still in the camp that doesn't buy into Luke's old lightsaber being found after the events on Bespin or the Falcon just sitting there waiting for the heroes to find it. Imo too many things about TFA just seemed like too much and had me rolling my eyes.
Edit :
No kidding lol. I'm not speaking of real world logic of course, but the rules or systems they had already set in place regarding how everything works in that universe. Like when Vader started hurling objects one after another at Luke he really struggled to fight back and was made to look like an amateur because he had never had to defend against something like that before. He did not just stop all the objects in mid air. Why ? Because Yoda told him the force was not for attack. The thought of someone using it that way likely never occurred to him. That's a sort of logic built in, despite it being a fantasy setting.
Human Trashcan
Banned
It was a decent movie, way too safe, too bland, too much of a retread. The Prequel Trilogy at least had new ideas and complicated the Light Side/Dark Side binary in an interesting way and exposed the Jedi as a bunch of complacent fucks who deserved to go down. There's not a single interesting new idea in TFA I can think of and the characters are cardboard cutouts. I hope it was just an overcorrection and TLJ will be more interesting but I'm not super hopeful, Disney is the safest company ever. And just looking at the Marvel films, those are also super safe and formulaic. They're all fine, none of them are great.
Jedi also deal in absolutes. The lore on Jedi is so muddled. It's like Lucas had no idea what he was writing.
Shadowhelper
Banned
Yeah it is really safe, obviously. And ultimately bland and forgetable. But I think if they focused the whole movie on the Oscar Issac character it could've been really good.
Other new characters suck and shouldn't be the focus of a whole movie. I couldn't bring myself to watch it second time. Just turned off the blu. Really boring movie.
Other new characters suck and shouldn't be the focus of a whole movie. I couldn't bring myself to watch it second time. Just turned off the blu. Really boring movie.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Why though?
I think this is where a lot of these sorts of back & forths break down a lot of the time: People can't explain why something like that "shouldn't" be happening. Not even that you don't like it, that it shouldn't be?
Basically - why do you make this way harder than it needs to be? And it's not just a Star Wars thing, it's a movie watching/understanding narrative thing in general? Why spend so much time trying to figure out ways to make it much more complicated than it actually is? Than it's being directly shown to you as being?
Can you explain why the hero of a story entitled "The Force Awakens" shouldn't be able to match up with the villain?
If your answer doesn't have anything to do with arcs, characterizations, themes, tone, and has everything to do with rulesets and powerlevels, you're not really watching the movie, you're rule-laywering an RPG you don't get to play.
So why, dramatically, shouldn't Rey be able to see into Kylo's mind as Kylo is forcing himself into hers, intuit use of the Force from that, and use it against him? Why shouldn't she learn from that experience (because you keep trying to frame it as her seeing something as opposed to actually feeling and being involved directly in it) and apply what she's learned?
Ren apparently doesn't think it's out of bounds because there is a line of dialog from him that specifically tells another character she's going to be doing that. Because there's no storytelling reason why she shouldn't.
snausagesUK
Member
I'm not a Star Wars fan but had a good time watching VII. Rogue One bored me.
My impression is that VII is like a theme park ride of sorts and Rogue One is just a big bland misfire so will be interested to see if VIII is something more solid.
My impression is that VII is like a theme park ride of sorts and Rogue One is just a big bland misfire so will be interested to see if VIII is something more solid.
Master Of Illusion
Member
GAF is the ultimate Hot Take.
I'm so happy reading this I could cry.
I agree with this. I do think the whole "let's fill out a wiki and stat page" for each character and event in SW has gotten out of control.. to the point where people don't even allow themselves to enjoy the film for the sweet simplicity that it is. Though the PT is at least partially to blame for this (midis/power level comparisons and ACTUAL bad fan service, such as Yoda flipping around and fanboys screaming, Palp/Yoda fighting with sabers).
I'll also mention that.. people forget a HUGE difference between Luke and Rey: one grew up under the care of a family, the other survived on her own.
Rey's entire life, essentially, has been learning how to adapt to get by. Her using the force to tap into her natural survival abilities makes a lot of sense, given the context we have.
The Librarian
Banned
maybe rey is just the most powerful force user ever
Well I guess I will set aside the mild irony that you're placing a ruleset on my answer. If we operate in a way that disregards character's skills, training or abilities, then Kylo should have exploded from Chewie's shot just like everyone else he hit earlier in the film as it acted like a grenade launcher. And that's all kind of out the window when the movie uses perceived power as a tool for characterization as early as the opening scene of the movie. Showing Ren stopping a blaster shot in mid air and invading someone's mind were both abilities we hadn't seen before and were deliberately shown early to tell us he was a powerful and a viable threat.
Rey's arc felt moot to me because she was never unable to do a single thing she attempted up to and including things that call into question what we've come to understand from the previous films and even using that same ability of Ren's back on him that was established to be something no one else had done before. The tone was warped because the scenes would cause her progression instead of her progression occurring in a natural way ; which was always right before the specific scene it was required for comes up. Everything we see her do happens immediately before it's critical to how a scene plays out like a disclaimer that explains to us that she can also do the things we're about to see.
We learn she can understand droid language, because if she couldn't she would not understand BB-8 and the scene wouldn't work. She also understands wookiee. We learn that despite saying she can't do it, she can fly and make repairs to the Falcon because if she couldn't the scene wouldn't work. We're shown her taking down stormtroopers which are now said to be trained since birth, with perfect marksmanship with a weapon she's never used before after one trial shot, because otherwise, she'd have just been shot and the scene wouldn't work. One could argue she might have experience handling other firearms on Jakku but again we don't see any of it until the exact moment that the scene is dependent upon her having that trait.
There are some really heavy handed moments with her where they are overselling what we've already learned as though the audience were stupid too. We see her stunt with the Falcon and then have Han say he was never able to do that to establish she is more capable. She oneshots stormtroopers just like he does and can fly and fix the ship better than its pilot of decades. And she just does them. She just can. We have Chewie be conveniently injured so we can showcase that she could also take his place as copilot. We have Finn trying to lead her away from the attack on Jakku and she is repeatedly yelling at him that she doesn't need him to hold her hand. We already knew this as she was established to be a capable and independent person who survived alone for years in a rough area. But they also made sure to have Finn ask if she had a boyfriend so we'd know he was still attracted to her but that she was not interested. It felt like transparent writing/directing without much forethought.
To me she felt like hamfisted writing/directing that was speaking through her character almost like she wasn't a character in the same way the others were but one who was half inside the plot and half outside of it. Not selling BB-8 was one of the only times I felt like she was a real personality.
Because like most of the other things she did, it comes about entirely in one scene and we see very little done to attain it when it was previously used as a unique point of Ren's behavior as a character.
At the very least some exposition with Finn about how Ren does that to people would have helped (if that's in there then apologies as I've not seen it multiple times yet.) Sure the nature of the new ability makes it a grey area on whether or not you could defend against it on instinct. But suddenly learning the mind trick just as she needs it to escape, while plausible under your interpretation, does still share that same pattern of suddenly acquiring the specific skill the scene needs to progress.
I'd have liked to have seen her be a very diplomatic and convincing person on her own (like maybe getting much more food from the trader at the beginning) as a precursor so that the mind trick seems like she is augmenting her natural talents with the force or something the way we assume she does to best Ren in the duel. I just feel like she was handled very strangely and fell outside of a narrative line that stayed in place for other characters in the film. She feels very clinically designed.
Rey knew of the Jedi and The Force well before the movie
Bobby Roberts
Banned
But I'm not though.
The rest of your post is just you reinforcing your decision to consume fiction as a frustrated DM instead of an audience member.
so what.
It's not like you can't do a lot in one scene. There aren't any rules as to how much character and/or plot development can happen in a scene. There's no scene referee that descends upon the set during filming and points out the violation as to how much relevant information is allowed in any set scene and this one has exceeded that amount.
So long as the scene is executed well it doesn't really matter how much info you pack into it. Or how little.
Paracelsus
Member
I would accept it only if she was a Gray Jedi, otherwise yes, I'd agree with the whole "mary sue" stigma.
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