Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Now I wished that I talked to Ono about this at Capcom Cup.
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Yoshinori Ono comments on Street Fighter 5 buttslap and related changes
- Thread starter Moraizen
- Start date
Right, that's why he's using the word self-censorship, not censorship.
mysteriousmage09
Member
Yup.
be assured that they won't change anything behind a paywall.
Ragnorok64
Member
The definition is straight up, right there in the link..
cloudzack117
Banned
fuck that shit. at least they just cropped the camera. someone will mod it back in on pc.
sixteen-bit
Member
Ono has grown a lot in 7 years
www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=327713
www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=327713
gundamkyoukai
Member
Figure it was something like that .
Don't make me happy but what can you do .
Don't make me happy but what can you do .
Karsticles
Member
I don't care about the butt slap too much, although I think it was absolutely perfect for her character. I do dislike how they changed it, though. The camera angle is just stupid. You see her hand go down, it makes a smack sound, but it's intentionally covered. Who is happy about such an odd change? Keep it or get rid of it, but don't do what you have now.
lensoftruth
Member
That's not a word
We're arguing nothing here anyway - Ono shouldn't have felt that he needed to edit this in anyway.
cloudzack117
Banned
at least they get it
Paracelsus
Member
You can tell based on what the issue at hand is. Talking about LGBTIQAP or racism? Better discuss changes. Removing a butt slap by a scantly dressed wrestler? It's not a massive issue, it's whining.
I love how this thread immediately went off the deep end when this very situation is what the mentioned article was talking about.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
It's a word. Stop being obtuse.That's not a word
We're arguing nothing here anyway - Ono shouldn't have felt that he needed to edit this in anyway.
lensoftruth
Member
as I said, this is a nothing argument. To me self-censorship is Stanley Kubrick banning A Clockwork Orange in the UK.
Ono changing a butt slap is just an edit because of the toxic few in the world of gaming.
lensoftruth
Member
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Cammy is far more bothersome to me than anything Mika does or wears. It suits her character. Cammy always has and always will be ridiculous in that outfit.
And they succeeded. The label "09'ers" exists for a reason.
An "edit". Are the semantics of this just too important to you? It's self-censorship, just accept it and move on.
cloudzack117
Banned
what do you mean by a toxic few? they changed it to appeal to specific demographic.
a demographic that probably wont be purchasing many copies of SF5
lensoftruth
Member
It's more the whining, it's the fact that this is considered before the whining even happens.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
It's still a fighting game, and a very technical one at that. People who were only gonna buy it for the skin aren't gonna do that knowing they can still get that off almost any porn site for free, and it saves them $60 from a getting their ass kicked day in and day out when actually getting to the meat and potatoes of the experience. So given its genre, it's already gonna cut out a few folks, including those who were only interested for the sexiness of some of the characters.
So they are still primarily going to be aiming it at fighting game fans, most of whom have been exposed to fan service in other fighting games and games period, so I doubt most of them had a problem w/ the buttslap or have a problem w/ things like Chun's alt outfit.
In fact, if they threw in an ass-slapping pro wrestler w/ a revealing spandex outfit in for the sake of netting in more money, wouldn't it make sense to actually include an ass-slap that compliments their character and is played up for humor (and not even that far removed from the PG-rated fare in WWE for instance)?
Me? I don't care either way. It's not like they covered her ass up, and it's just one little camera change. But I'd like for the principle of the reason to be sound and logical, and I don't get that from Ono's comments. It was a decision made out of fear of backlash from a vocal minority, and they "self-censored", like another poster aptly described it earlier.
My issue is that they removed the ass-slap out of a potential fear from those who probably wouldn't/won't get the game anyway, than they did b/c they sat down and artistically evaluated things and said "hmm, I think moving the camera upward works better for the composition. This new framing makes better sense."
R.Mika is a 10/10 on the fanservice scale without slapping her ass before her special. There are probably a couple places in the world where having that animation front and center might be the difference between someone picking the game up and someone skipping it. At the end of the day , SF isn't known for it's otaku level fan service and R.Mika still exists in the game. I'd just say it's safe to assume Capcom saw potential for the character to be just a little too much and that it might affect sales or give them a kind of publicity they didn't desire. I mean hell, look at what happened here on Neogaf once she was revealed, look at all the think pieces written up about R.Mika within 10 days of her reveal. This was a turning point in SFV's existence, like it or lump it.
My personal thoughts are very mild disappointment, I didn't personally think it went too far in light of the overall tone developed for the character and I mean, let's be honest here - the Critical Art itself remains unchanged and even the animation is still there. All that's been dropped is about 12 frames of a buttocks jiggling, you still see her hand go back there and hear the slap , the move still involves 2 female wrestlers double butt slamming an opponent in the air and essentially suplexing them with their asses. I'm not sure how those 12 frames make all the difference but then again, if they DO ? if some 8 year old girl that might give SFV a whirl decides to pass on it because of that ? well, maybe it's the right choice.
All anyone (myself included) could really talk about when Mika got announced was the fact that her butt jiggled and perhaps some producers at capcom decided "hey we don't want to be the next dead or alive over here , let's tone that down just a bit". SFV was already receiving some flack because of the 2P character select physics/gravity bug resulting in some of the floppiest boob physics this side of a Korean MMO. Now the discussion can return to talking about the game itself instead of how titillating it is.
It's capcoms game to alter and well, if those 12 frames where your reason for buying the game ? there's absolutely tons of Street Fighter hentai out there if that's what tickles your fancy or even ... hear me out here - bog standard regular old porn. It takes as long as a google search to find - it's almost all free and unlike SFV , it's built for fapping. Not that I'm calling all y'all a bunch of wankers or anything I'm just saying - why use SFV for that purpose when much better stuff exists out there ? Seriously there's even tons of terrible videogames that specifically cater to that sort of thing. SF doesn't need it , and yes this is even being written as someone who is fully aware that in Japan a "HOT" edition of the game exists. Japan is NOT one of the countries where people care about this sort of thing and they allowed Dead or Alive to be filed with Lolicon characters so ... just let them have it. I think we're a better sort over here.
My personal thoughts are very mild disappointment, I didn't personally think it went too far in light of the overall tone developed for the character and I mean, let's be honest here - the Critical Art itself remains unchanged and even the animation is still there. All that's been dropped is about 12 frames of a buttocks jiggling, you still see her hand go back there and hear the slap , the move still involves 2 female wrestlers double butt slamming an opponent in the air and essentially suplexing them with their asses. I'm not sure how those 12 frames make all the difference but then again, if they DO ? if some 8 year old girl that might give SFV a whirl decides to pass on it because of that ? well, maybe it's the right choice.
All anyone (myself included) could really talk about when Mika got announced was the fact that her butt jiggled and perhaps some producers at capcom decided "hey we don't want to be the next dead or alive over here , let's tone that down just a bit". SFV was already receiving some flack because of the 2P character select physics/gravity bug resulting in some of the floppiest boob physics this side of a Korean MMO. Now the discussion can return to talking about the game itself instead of how titillating it is.
It's capcoms game to alter and well, if those 12 frames where your reason for buying the game ? there's absolutely tons of Street Fighter hentai out there if that's what tickles your fancy or even ... hear me out here - bog standard regular old porn. It takes as long as a google search to find - it's almost all free and unlike SFV , it's built for fapping. Not that I'm calling all y'all a bunch of wankers or anything I'm just saying - why use SFV for that purpose when much better stuff exists out there ? Seriously there's even tons of terrible videogames that specifically cater to that sort of thing. SF doesn't need it , and yes this is even being written as someone who is fully aware that in Japan a "HOT" edition of the game exists. Japan is NOT one of the countries where people care about this sort of thing and they allowed Dead or Alive to be filed with Lolicon characters so ... just let them have it. I think we're a better sort over here.
lensoftruth
Member
I have dude, which is why I say it's a nothing argument, words as strong as censorship should be reserved for important issues, not butt slaps
We're all on the same side on this nonsense anyway
potatohead
Member
Good post.
Let the issue be done with. Ono and his team have made their response and final decision known. They perceived a reaction from the audience, and responded to it in the way they felt was best for their game and their interests, for better or worse. It's not the end of the world, the game is still being made, lots more content to see and enjoy in the game than 12 frames of whatever.
Let them return to Street Fighter V, the game, which has a lot more content to offer than Mika's buttslap, or lack of it.
"We could avoid backlash by redesigning several characters but that would cost a lot of money, so let's just move a few camera angles and hope for the best." That was the thought process.
As for the porn thing, clearly people buy games for the CG T&A. I don't think the DOAX games are sold on the stellar gameplay. Nor are the hundreds of DLC costumes in DOA proper.
Unless they change the CA's animation the issue will never be done, someone will always bring it up.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
Pachinko, if an 8-year old girl would wind up passing on the game b/c of Mika's buttslap, what's to prevent them from passing on it seeing boob jiggle on the 2P select screen, or Chun-Li half-bare in her alt, or Laura's cleavage, or Mika period right after selecting her and seeing that (in their mind) ridiculous outfit?
The buttslap is an arbitrary line to draw it at.
Also those DOAX games mostly sell in Japan and parts of Asia, and don't sell anywhere near the proper games or other fighting games. Also what's there is several levels beyond even the most salacious stuff in SFV, it's not even comparable.
The buttslap is an arbitrary line to draw it at.
But by this logic they're still going to get backlash for a lot of the other stuff in the game. Maybe they allocate just enough time and budget to backlash by following a Backlash Meter and figure where the tipping point is. And a 1-second butt slap animation, of all things, was the tipping point.
Also those DOAX games mostly sell in Japan and parts of Asia, and don't sell anywhere near the proper games or other fighting games. Also what's there is several levels beyond even the most salacious stuff in SFV, it's not even comparable.
lensoftruth
Member
This isn't new to fighters either, Mae Shiranui from King of Fighter regularly had her boobs un-animated for US/EU set Neo-Geos.
This shit is just petty, but I keep seeing it. There's a video on youtube totalling of the female dialogue of Star Wars 4-6 like it's an issue.
This shit is just petty, but I keep seeing it. There's a video on youtube totalling of the female dialogue of Star Wars 4-6 like it's an issue.
potatohead
Member
You're misinterpreting what that means.
As far as Ono and the Street Fighter team is concerned, the issue has been addressed. That's how they feel about what is appropriate for their game and their audience.
People may continue to complain, and CAPCOM may react further, but that is yet to be seen. They could change their mind, sure, any time. Until that happens though, this case is still closed as far as Ono cares I'm sure.
As of now, this is the response, and they want to get back to worrying about other things like optimizing their game and developing content for their game, which in the end is far more important than these few frames of whatever.
It's their game and their line. But to them it's about moving on to other things and at the end of the day it's one decision out of thousands to be made on the game.
You may find it arbitrary. To CAPCOM it's where they find what is appropriate for their game and their audience, which means it's their definition. What is defined as arbitrary to you really doesn't matter.
They actually have to make decisions about what goes into their game, not like us. Everything they do is effectively arbitrary. Why is X animation 10 frames instead of 11? Why does this dude have 1 invincibility frame, and another has more? Arbitrary to us, except in completely in context for the developers who are actually making the game.
To CAPCOM someone has to make the decision, if they are OK with it, or if they are not. They made a choice, they can move on to doing other things. That's how work gets done. Doesn't mean it's the right or perfect choice, but it doesn't have to be. I'm sure they are more worried about making a great game than just one character animation.
SolarPowered
Member
Sad, but it is what it is in this day and age. Nothing causes more controversy in this industry than a confident woman controlling her body and her message (deep or shallow because there ain't nothing deep about Mika).
The semantics of the word "censorship" do bother me because censorship was something very real until not long ago. A lot of south american countries had an actual government official who would veto publications and had the authority to ban any of them based on how critical they were of the government.
So eventually, publications learned their place and would just not report anything bad, because it would just get censored anyway. Is that "self-censorship"?
Censorship is an important word, that's why people try to use it to score points; it invokes something that is just not right. Using the word because the creators of a game that would never be subjected to government enforcement was changed in order to appeal to a broader market sounds so disrespectful. It is downright offensive torwards jornalists in countries who actively risk being murdered by their own government because of their opinions.
I can't take a lot of those complains about "Capcom was censored" seriously precisely because of the semantics of the word. I understand that the word can be used this way, but then we weaken the meaning when we want to use it in a far more important discussion.
The word, to me, can't lose the meaning of coercion; to the point that "self-censorship" becomes a term that, while people use it, is self-defeating in my opinion. You can't coerce yourself.
In the end, the only judge for what a word means is that people agree on their meaning; but, personally, I'm not yet ready to give up the word to explain why a content creator would want to tone down certain aspects of a product in order to make something more accessible.
So eventually, publications learned their place and would just not report anything bad, because it would just get censored anyway. Is that "self-censorship"?
Censorship is an important word, that's why people try to use it to score points; it invokes something that is just not right. Using the word because the creators of a game that would never be subjected to government enforcement was changed in order to appeal to a broader market sounds so disrespectful. It is downright offensive torwards jornalists in countries who actively risk being murdered by their own government because of their opinions.
I can't take a lot of those complains about "Capcom was censored" seriously precisely because of the semantics of the word. I understand that the word can be used this way, but then we weaken the meaning when we want to use it in a far more important discussion.
The word, to me, can't lose the meaning of coercion; to the point that "self-censorship" becomes a term that, while people use it, is self-defeating in my opinion. You can't coerce yourself.
In the end, the only judge for what a word means is that people agree on their meaning; but, personally, I'm not yet ready to give up the word to explain why a content creator would want to tone down certain aspects of a product in order to make something more accessible.
you are living in a fantasy world if you think any piece of commercial art (music, games, film, writing, painting, etc.) isn't constantly being evaluated at every level for reasons that are firmly outside the realm of artistic self-expression or technical merit. being upset about seeing whether a girl slaps her ass in-or-out of frame is probably one of the least interesting or meaningful gateways to the discussion on How Things Should Be Made.
It is a word all right.
Now explain me why this is diferent than any balancing changes they do in the game like making a hadouken stronger or nerf a character ?
potatohead
Member
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
I say if they had the slap leave it in. It wasn't hurting anyone.
I'm saying the butt slap censorship is arbitrary and I'd prefer it was still in the game (and I'd prefer if some of the costumes were way less revealing because they look stupid). However, I believe Capcom didn't think this minor backlash was going to happen so the camera angle change was putting a band-aid on the situation. They can't go back and change a bunch of character models, it's too late (and too expensive).
That's good.
Bring back the butt slap and the original leg split on the critical art.
The butt slap plays on R. Mika's crazy and satirical design since it hails from the world of pro wrestling. And the leg split is a homage to the Kinniku Buster from the manga and anime Kinnikuman.
The move itself exists in real pro wrestling as the Muscle Buster.
Might as well force Bamco and Yuke's to take it out of Tekken and WWE right?
The butt slap plays on R. Mika's crazy and satirical design since it hails from the world of pro wrestling. And the leg split is a homage to the Kinniku Buster from the manga and anime Kinnikuman.
The move itself exists in real pro wrestling as the Muscle Buster.
Might as well force Bamco and Yuke's to take it out of Tekken and WWE right?
Excellent.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
His logic doesnt add up.
If you thought internally that "this isnt working, lets change it" then you do something else, you dont just move the camera out of the way. Thats not a change, thats a quick fix.
Its a shame, somebody at Capcom, or the ratings board probably had an issue with it and they had to make changes. If the goal was not to offend then there would be sweeping changes across the board ... but of course, there arent, because his argument is extremely flawed.
Its a shame.
If you thought internally that "this isnt working, lets change it" then you do something else, you dont just move the camera out of the way. Thats not a change, thats a quick fix.
Its a shame, somebody at Capcom, or the ratings board probably had an issue with it and they had to make changes. If the goal was not to offend then there would be sweeping changes across the board ... but of course, there arent, because his argument is extremely flawed.
Its a shame.
Mockingbird
Member
Does Ono know about hair down Chun-Li yet?
Karsticles
Member
Yeah, I never found the butt slap to be sexy. It made me laugh.
Every time I see your avatar around I burst out laughing. I'm pretty much on the same page, shit just makes my eyes roll.