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Halo |OT 25| Did you think me defeated?!"

You should use less soft brushes, it gives a blurry visual when you're trying to make hard surfaces actually.

Yeah, that's related to what I was experimenting with. Normally I use the lineart to define edges, so I don't need to worry about edging the shadows/color as much. This started out with lines, and I took them out to practice that sort of line-less definition of shapes. It would just have taken too long to re-sharpen everything perfectly though, especially at this resolution.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
That would be cool, and make the armor a spandex suit with armor detailing, like those fabric onesie Halloween Halo costumes lol.

Those helmets would likely look pretty horrifying in 3D... did they make a Mister Chief XB avatar or something? I'm trying to think if they've already done it somewhere.
 
Those helmets would likely look pretty horrifying in 3D... did they make a Mister Chief XB avatar or something? I'm trying to think if they've already done it somewhere.

They did, yeah. It's basically just the really rough outline of a helmet, more like a bucket with a brim, and the visor/eyes/mouth decaled on. It'd work in game, imo.
 

iFirez

Member
1495742197364-Cover.png
This article really dives deeply into the creation of all the Halo games and is so honest about everything from the Microsoft contract to the politic in-fighting while making the games within Bungie. Really really good read: https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/the-complete-untold-history-of-halo-an-oral-history (It also has some awesome original artwork)
 

Fuchsdh

Member
This article really dives deeply into the creation of all the Halo games and is so honest about everything from the Microsoft contract to the politic in-fighting while making the games within Bungie. Really really good read: https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/the-complete-untold-history-of-halo-an-oral-history (It also has some awesome original artwork)

Yep. A lot of little tidbits I hadn't seen before anywhere. I don't think they'd ever been so explicit how late story stuff came online in the first game as well.

(The idea of H1 not having a shotgun is horrifying.)
 
This article really dives deeply into the creation of all the Halo games and is so honest about everything from the Microsoft contract to the politic in-fighting while making the games within Bungie. Really really good read: https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/the-complete-untold-history-of-halo-an-oral-history (It also has some awesome original artwork)

This is awesome!

Also really fucking long, holy shit.

EDIT: My main take away is that multiplayer getting shafted in terms of resources is a long, proud tradition. Max Hoberman da god

EDIT 2: Ryan Payton was bad at his job:

To give you an example of the kind of creativity that I'm interested in, you know, Halo is 90 percent shooting. [So] what more compelling territory can we explore then, in mission 5 of Halo 4, [if we] have no shooting? That's one of the directions I gave the design team, which was hard for them to get excited about because so much of Halo is about shooting stuff. It actually got a lot of pushback, obviously we never ended up shipping that mission...

The most compelling thing is to have a completely different game? Jesus Christ.

Two paragraphs later...

Then one day I was informed that I was no longer creative director. Effective immediately, I was now narrative director, in a diminished role, and not managing the design team. That was a hard day.

A little while later...

And I wouldn't say that all my ideas weren't working—we had playable prototypes that proved out many of them. Some of those ideas eventually found their way into Halo 5. The biggest idea, which I can't get into, definitely made people uncomfortable, which was a natural reaction, I think. You should ask them.

Clamber I'm sure.

For better or worse, Halo 4 feels like a sequel to Halo 3, and that's what I wanted to avoid. In fact, I wanted to change the game so much that we couldn't even call it Halo 4. There's a hint of that idea in Halo 4, but it's not obvious...

I mean, your job was to make a sequel to Halo 3. So, uh, yeah, you were deliberately terrible at your job.

EDIT 3: Josh Holmes says having Warzone and Arena in the same game "was a mistake."
 
I want to write so much in response to that article/insights but I'll just leave it at thanks to all those contributing and being so honest about everything to the public. Pity Jason Jones wasn't part of that article early on.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I want to write so much in response to that article/insights but I'll just leave it at thanks to all those contributing and being so honest about everything to the public. Pity Jason Jones wasn't part of that article early on.

Yeah, I wish there was more detail on the timeframes for interviews at least to get an idea of who was talking about what. With these sorts of synthesized pieces the omission of a person at a juncture suggests a lot more than them talking, but it's hard to say since we didn't see the questions what's intentional or accidental.

Marty pulling no punches is perhaps the least shocking part of the entire thing, but it's still kind of interesting to see how long things were clearly simmering.

Also wish there were a few more signposts, because areas like the Halo 3 stuff are spanning years and it's hard to keep track of what was concurrent. Certainly seems like Bungie knew they were doing Halo 4 a long time before Halo 3 came out.
 

Madness

Member
Solid article. Though it doesn't delve too much into MCC, and Halo 5. It also ends pretty abruptly right near Halo 5 start. Not too in-depth there.
 
Great article. Liked that it just gave multiple voices to breathe and talk as they pleased.

I feel like I have a better understanding as why 343 Halo has gotten into the mess they are in. I admit, taking on a franchise with hardly any of the original developers in tact is so hard. Unfortunately, I don't think it's the success story we would have liked to see, but I can't blame them as a whole. Seems like 343 at least provides a better workflow--or at least a healthier developer environment. Bungie seems like it was an unhealthy environment and drove some of them to near madness.

While I hope Halo 6 learns a lot from their experiences and provides a tighter game with more and better content focuses on arena/btb multiplayer, I agree with Jaime Griesemer that Halo 6 is basically a lose/lose situation.
 

jem0208

Member
Great article. Liked that it just gave multiple voices to breathe and talk as they pleased.

I feel like I have a better understanding as why 343 Halo has gotten into the mess they are in. I admit, taking on a franchise with hardly any of the original developers in tact is so hard. Unfortunately, I don't think it's the success story we would have liked to see, but I can't blame them as a whole. Seems like 343 at least provides a better workflow--or at least a healthier developer environment. Bungie seems like it was an unhealthy environment and drove some of them to near madness.

While I hope Halo 6 learns a lot from their experiences and provides a tighter game with more and better content focuses on arena/btb multiplayer, I agree with Jaime Griesemer that Halo 6 is basically a lose/lose situation.
I don't think he's saying it's a lose/lose situation, he's saying there's no way 343 are ever going to please everyone...
 

Trup1aya

Member
My take away is the Max Hoberman with very little budget and a tiny team , was tasked with creating the gamemode that was to be the "second fiddle" experience. It ended up being the experience that defined Halo2's success and the basis for Halo3 - one of the biggest gaming success stories of all time.

It's also crazy to see so much emphasis on the idea that 343 tried to study and understand what made the halo series tick- the result of that effort, Halo 4, provides no evidence of that. It launched with NONE of what made halo work, except for similar guns and characters. The artwork, the level design, the vehicle physics, and the entirety of the MP suite was just wrong.

There was one quote where a guy wished that they had just remade Halo CE so that the team could learn what made the series tick. In hindsight I think we'd be in a much a better place if something like had occurred for H4.
 
I don't think he's saying it's a lose/lose situation, he's saying there's no way 343 are ever going to please everyone...

That's generally what I meant. His quote is: "You can't win. It's an unwinnable situation."

I believe he rightly pointed out that Halo 5 fixed a lot of Halo 4's wrongs, but in a way created for itself a lot of other problems that leaves the direction of Halo 6 in a really awkward place. Just taking our imaginations into the various routes 343 could go leaves me a little more than worried how Halo 6 will turn out (at least the narrative).

I'm kind of hoping that Halo 6 makes Halo 5 look in retrospect like an underwhelming, but important plot bridge. That way Halo 5 could turn out to be a more satisfying narrative because of what we know what it's setting up. This doesn't cover up the writing and scene to scene problems, but it will at least let us remember and possibly replay Halo 5 with greater fondness and appreciation.

My take away is the Max Hoberman with very little budget and a tiny team , was tasked with creating the gamemode that was to be the "second fiddle" experience. It ended up being the experience that defined Halo2's success and the basis for Halo3 - one of the biggest gaming success stories of all time.

It's also crazy to see so much emphasis on the idea that 343 tries to study and understand what made the halo series tick- the result of that effort, Halo 4, directly opposes that. It launched with NONE of what made halo work, except for similar guns and characters.

This article and other interviews indicate that Halo 4 and team tried to distinguish itself far too much to the point of even being zealous enough to try and break away from Halo's core entirely. I'm glad they didn't, but that influence set them up for an awkward trajectory. I also find it interesting that they reached out to Jaime Griesemer for questions on why certain things were done, but it seems that 343 chose to go in a different direction. Take the typical sprint conversation. Jaime has a twitter post that largely sums up a lot of the issues we have with it, but 343 ignored that train of though. Not saying that sprint was specifically brought up with Jaime and 343, but it stands to reason that all of those changes had to have been made with the clear understanding of why it worked in classic Halo, yet still decided against it.
 

jem0208

Member
That's generally what I meant. His quote is: "You can’t win. It’s an unwinnable situation."

I believe he rightly pointed out that Halo 5 fixed a lot of Halo 4's wrongs, but in a way created for itself a lot of other problems that leaves the direction of Halo 6 in a really awkward place. Just taking our imaginations into the various routes 343 could go leaves me a little more than worried how Halo 6 will turn out (at least the narrative).

I'm kind of hoping that Halo 6 makes Halo 5 look in retrospect like an underwhelming, but important plot bridge. That way Halo 5 could turn out to be a more satisfying narrative because of what we know what it's setting up. This doesn't cover up the writing and scene to scene problems, but it will at least let us remember and possibly replay Halo 5 with greater fondness and appreciation.
I don't think it's an unwinnable scenario. Obviously whatever they do some people are going to be disappointed but that doesn't mean no one will enjoy the game.

Personally i think in terms of gameplay they should stick with what they've got in 5. Instead of reinventing everything all over again, iterate and build a shit ton of content.

I've said this a few times but I think that 5 was poor at best as a standalone story. That said as setup for 6 i think it could be redeemed somewhat if 6 is a success.
 

Trup1aya

Member
This article and other interviews indicate that Halo 4 and team tried to distinguish itself far too much to the point of even being zealous enough to try and break away from Halo's core entirely. I'm glad they didn't, but that influence set them up for an awkward trajectory. I also find it interesting that they reached out to Jaime Griesemer for questions on why certain things were done, but it seems that 343 chose to go in a different direction. Take the typical sprint conversation. Jaime has a twitter post that largely sums up a lot of the issues we have with it, but 343 ignored that train of though. Not saying that sprint was specifically brought up with Jaime and 343, but it stands to reason that all of those changes had to have been made with the clear understanding of why it worked in classic Halo, yet still decided against it.

Yeah. reading how Halo4 came about it almost feels like a giant contradiction.

You've got Bungie employees talking about how they were fielding tons of questions about design decisions- but many of those core decisions that defined the franchise were completely thrown out.

Then you've got a creative director who's goal was apparently to make a game that isn't a halo game- almost as if he has contempt for the existing fans.

Payton ends up saying halo 4 was "traditional" which I don't agree with. Then he goes on to say they should have remade CE so that they could learn to work as a team and earn the respect of fans, which I think would have been amazing for the franchise. In hindsight.

This quote is like the weirdest thing ever for me
Jaime Griesemer: I’m friendly with a lot of the designers at 343, and it’s funny because while they want to make Halo their own, they also really want approval from the people that worked on the original. They want to be true to what they think of as Halo from the outside, from having played it when they were in college or whatever. But they also want to know: “What was the philosophy behind ‘X’?”

I always encourage these guys that, look, the philosophy behind using “X” was that I just liked it better than the other options. There isn’t this magic, secret formula. You just do the best that you can and make it a game that excites and interests you. Don’t look back, don’t try to recapture the first Halo, it can’t be done. That was a moment in time as much as it was a game.

The game I played doesn't seem like these things were actual considerations (other than making Halo their own). Unfortunately, the game that excited and interested the developers at 343 didn't have the same effect on many fans of the franchise.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
This bit by Frankie probably speaks to the reasons why Halo 5 doesn't have assym gametypes:

I think the number one thing that we lost in the multiplayer, but that we know now and kind of knew then, is symmetry. We had some asymmetrical game types and that was the thing the people who didn’t like it focused on most, that it wasn’t that simple four-by-four symmetry.
 

Sordid

Member
That was very dark time, personally. We needed to make it right, and we weren't going to stop until we had.

I didn't realise they finished fixing MCC. Hooray!

We were surprised by a few things, once the Collection was released. We found things happening in the real world that we didn't see in testing: matchmaking problems, and a lot of user frustration.

Hmmmm, weren't disconnections/crashes etc showing up in tournaments before the game released? Pretty sure 'quit the build' was a well known phrase before MCC was released...

Edit: Pretty sure I also remember before release that 343 were super insistent that all issues were due to the 'pre release build' hinting that it'd be fixed for launch. They mentioned it all the time. They knew the issues were there. Maybe not the extent of the matchmaking issues there'd be but they knew the collection was a mess and released it anyway.


Otherwise it was a great read. Things could've gone so wrong for Bungie haha, sounds like it was chaos most of the time!
 

op_ivy

Fallen Xbot (cannot continue gaining levels in this class)
Finally read the article, it was really great. i really appreciated the insight into bungie and the, hmmmm, personalities there. I wish the 343 portion, post halo reach, was as brutally honest about difficulties and failings, though I suppose there just hasn't been as much time or separation for that kind of conversation to take place yet.
 

Trup1aya

Member
This bit by Frankie probably speaks to the reasons why Halo 5 doesn't have assym gametypes:

I didn't understand his comment. I gametypes like 1 flag and 1 bomb didn't bother people.

I wonder if by symmetry he meant the lack of even starts, and the inclusion of kill streaks- which made the battlefield uneven.
 

Cranster

Banned
I didn't understand his comment. I gametypes like 1 flag and 1 bomb didn't bother people.

I wonder if by symmetry he meant the lack of even starts, and the inclusion of kill streaks- which made the battlefield uneven.
Yeah I'm pretty sure he was refering to the killstreak rewards, loadouts and perks.
 
This bit by Frankie probably speaks to the reasons why Halo 5 doesn't have assym gametypes:

I didn't understand his comment. I gametypes like 1 flag and 1 bomb didn't bother people.

I wonder if by symmetry he meant the lack of even starts, and the inclusion of kill streaks- which made the battlefield uneven.

Yeah I'm pretty sure he was refering to the killstreak rewards, loadouts and perks.

I dont understand his comment. Does he mean gametypes or overall balance? One flag, one bomb were some of the best halo games ive ever had. One bomb in Halo2 on headlong....That shit was some of the most fun ever. Playing defence then offence. I miss those days. Even CTF, it was always more fun in BTB, or bigger maps. I rarely ever play it anymore since BTB is borked. I miss the old Halo gametypes.
 

Trup1aya

Member
If it was, I'm not sure why he would specifically use the term game types.

I'm not sure why he'd specifically use the term gametypes, other than he simply chose the wrong words.

I think it's safe to say that asymmetrical gametypes, as we use the term, were not the #1 complaint people had with H4, and were not something that was addressed in most release matches.

I think he just used the wrong word and meant to say that the gameplay wasn't centered around two teams on exactly equal footing- which IS something that was addressed in patches.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I'm not sure why he'd specifically use the term gametypes, other than he simply chose the wrong words.

I think it's safe to say that asymmetrical gametypes, as we use the term, were not the #1 complaint people had with H4, and were not something that was addressed in most release matches.

I think he just used the wrong word and meant to say that the gameplay wasn't centered around two teams on exactly equal footing- which IS something that was addressed in patches.
Honestly I don't even really remember early Halo 4. All the complaints about load outs ruining BTB and Infinity Slayer I recall, but what I remember from the game is Legendary Slayer and Ricochet and the last good DLC maps.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Honestly I don't even really remember early Halo 4. All the complaints about load outs ruining BTB and Infinity Slayer I recall, but what I remember from the game is Legendary Slayer and Ricochet and the last good DLC maps.

I don't remember anything beyond early halo 4, because it was so terrible, that I quit the game 2 weeks later and basically quit gaming altogether.
 

Juan

Member
I don't remember anything beyond early halo 4, because it was so terrible, that I quit the game 2 weeks later and basically quit gaming altogether.

You should have returned after they patched the game with a 4sk BR and Legendary Slayer (aka no abilities), this game was a ton of fun!

Especially after they added the Champion Map Pack with Ricochet and The Pit remake. With all the changes made to Halo 4 post-release, it felt like a different game, and even became one of my favorite in term of casual play.
 

Trup1aya

Member
You should have returned after they patched the game with a 4sk BR and Legendary Slayer (aka no abilities), this game was a ton of fun!

Especially after they added the Champion Map Pack with Ricochet and The Pit remake. With all the changes made to Halo 4 post-release, it felt like a different game, and even became one of my favorite in term of casual play.

That's what i hear, but i was just so turned off I didnt even know the updates existed. I stopped following the industry altogether. I think it wasn't until gta5 came out that I dusted My xbox off again. And i just played that and whatever came with gwg. My little brother used to play the hell out of h4 and I couldn't fathom why he'd bother... little did I know they made some serious adjustments.
 
That's what i hear, but i was just so turned off I didnt even know the updates existed. I stopped following the industry altogether. I think it wasn't until gta5 came out that I dusted My xbox off again. And i just played that and whatever came with gwg. My little brother used to play the hell out of h4 and I couldn't fathom why he'd bother... little did I know they made some serious adjustments.

I don't think it was an improvement worth returning for.
 

Ade

Member
Hmm. Amazon have cancelled and refunded my Halo Warfleet Order as the book is apparently no longer getting released.

Shame
 

SCHUEY F1

Unconfirmed Member
Hmm. Amazon have cancelled and refunded my Halo Warfleet Order as the book is apparently no longer getting released.

Shame

What... That's odd.

I'm sure it will still be coming out. Maybe got delayed?

Edit: still shows on Amazon canada
 
TL;DR: Sikamikanico had a baby (yay one more Halo fan!) with his partner after a stressful pregnancy (some worrying test results that ended up being fine). So, I assume the chances of him completing the montage between chunks of child spittle are pretty low.
Do we have any skilled video editors here that would want to take over?
 

Madness

Member
My cousins were over this weekend. I always use them as a barometer for whats hip these days. It is crazy how quick you become an old man. They have their fidget spinners and were telling me about all these rappers and musicians I didn't even know. They used to watch me play Halo 3. Then they would beg to play Halo Reach against me. Then they bought H4 but never played it. Halo 5 is a nonfactor to them. They don't know who Cortana is. Who even Master Chief is. One of them said their entire class has preordered Destiny 2 and they only play NBA 2K, FIFA, Overwatch and stuff. Halo 6 isn't even on their radar. Nor do they care about eSports or competitive. Was very eye opening. I think even if H6 somehow tops H5, the audience just isn't there.
 
My cousins were over this weekend. I always use them as a barometer for whats hip these days. It is crazy how quick you become an old man. They have their fidget spinners and were telling me about all these rappers and musicians I didn't even know. They used to watch me play Halo 3. Then they would beg to play Halo Reach against me. Then they bought H4 but never played it. Halo 5 is a nonfactor to them. They don't know who Cortana is. Who even Master Chief is. One of them said their entire class has preordered Destiny 2 and they only play NBA 2K, FIFA, Overwatch and stuff. Halo 6 isn't even on their radar. Nor do they care about eSports or competitive. Was very eye opening. I think even if H6 somehow tops H5, the audience just isn't there.

Yep, I experience the same with my son's friends and younglings in our party chat/Halo buddies. The Halo zeitgeist needs PR/viral work. It's like Bungie continue to have an intravenous drip to all demographics/ages in terms of appeal. Halo just isn't in the schoolyard anymore, eSports alone doesn't get it there either.

QueueTheHalo4ARkid.jpg

I blame minecraft...no youtube...no mobile apps /s

I've said it before since Reach/H4 the game doesn't appeal like the 4v4 or BTB or LAN or non-party chat era of old Halo. Perhaps it's being at such peaks for so long that now we're continually seeing the troughs. WZ was new but it's just not a thing to chat about in the schoolyard IMO, ranked Halo 2/3 was THE thing to chat about. Forge is too complex by comparison to say minecraft. Eh, I'm just dumping verbal diarrhoea now.
 
My cousins were over this weekend. I always use them as a barometer for whats hip these days. It is crazy how quick you become an old man. They have their fidget spinners and were telling me about all these rappers and musicians I didn't even know. They used to watch me play Halo 3. Then they would beg to play Halo Reach against me. Then they bought H4 but never played it. Halo 5 is a nonfactor to them. They don't know who Cortana is. Who even Master Chief is. One of them said their entire class has preordered Destiny 2 and they only play NBA 2K, FIFA, Overwatch and stuff. Halo 6 isn't even on their radar. Nor do they care about eSports or competitive. Was very eye opening. I think even if H6 somehow tops H5, the audience just isn't there.

I relate to this dude. I think we all long for the MLG days and that's the audience.
 
Halo was already losing traction and then Halo 4 was too much of a bomb and it shows. People lost faith in the series then the clusterfuck MCC came out and just fucked it up even more. H5 was getting back on track, however people just said fuck it and moved on. I mean why play Halo when you can play OW, BF, CoD, CSGO, Destiny, and etc? I don’t see them gaining any new fans really, just trying to retain what they have.
 
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