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UK government gives response to lootbox regular/gambling questions/inquiries

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
I know some people were interested to see the results of this.

Eurogamer said:
Government response to loot box concern is predictably non-committal
Over a week ago, Daniel Zeichner, Labour MP for Cambridge, submitted two written questions on behalf of reddit user and constituent Artfunkel. The questions, addressed to the Secretary of State, were as follows:

"To ask the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, what steps she plans to take to help protect vulnerable adults and children from illegal gambling, in-game gambling and loot boxes within computer games."

"To ask the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, what assessment the Government has made of the effectiveness of the Isle of Man's enhanced protections against illegal and in-game gambling and loot boxes; and what discussions she has had with Cabinet colleagues on adopting such protections in the UK".
Tracey Crouch, Parliamentary Under-Secretary for the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport has responded to these questions on behalf of the government - with both questions receiving the exact same answer.

quesxslsj.png
The government response is, unsurprisingly, evasive and appears to be ill-informed on the issue - citing the prosecution of two third-party gambling websites despite questions asking about in-game gambling.
regulating boards such as PEGI, UKIE and the ESRB will not add a gambling disclaimer to games which include loot boxes or similar features
Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...loot-box-concern-is-predictably-non-committal
 

Kill3r7

Member
Am I so out of touch?

No, its PEGI, ESRB, USK, and the BBFC who are wrong

To be fair, there is little chance of any meaningful legislation passing in regard to loot boxes. A progressive judge might produce a favorable ruling but even then it is highly unlikely.
 
This reminds me of that whole No Man's Sky kerfuffle, regarding the investigation in them scamming consumers.

I really don't see how lootboxes (especially as they're used in SoW) are considered "gambling".
 

Kucan

Member
It's seem like it's a definitions issue.

"We would totally enact laws to protect people if it were gambling but we don't see it as gambling so...."

Probably would get more traction under a exploitation angle.
 

HKA6A7

Member
Am I so out of touch?

No, its PEGI, ESRB, USK, and the BBFC who are wrong

I don't think any of the sides are totally wrong, what we have here is a grey area caused by a new variable.
A gray area that must be addresed and regulated, before it's abused and turns into a black hole that sucks everyone's experience.
 

oti

Banned
Am I so out of touch?

No, its PEGI, ESRB, USK, and the BBFC who are wrong

I'm not a fan of this whole loot box drama YouTubers and parts of GAF are going through right now, but asking these organisations to clarify the current status is 100% the correct thing to do in this situation.
 
I think trying to define lootboxes as gambling is a losing battle, a ban isnt happening.

Id just like to see some regulation, drop rates, a warning label and a spending cap so people cant throw paychecks at the games.
 

Arkeband

Banned
This reminds me of that whole No Man's Sky kerfuffle, regarding the investigation in them scamming consumers.

I really don't see how lootboxes (especially as they're used in SoW) are considered "gambling".

The very least these companies should be forced to do, as it is in China, is to show drop chance percentages.

I could make a game with lootboxes that only drop potatoes and pocket lint with a technical chance that .0000000001% of the time it can drop a useful item, and still advertise that item prominently on the lootbox contents, and not face any kind of scrutiny.
 
Looks like they're saying they only consider it gambling if the developer attributes real money value to the items, or if they provide the users with a system for exchanging the prizes for money.

In other words: they ain't gonna do shit.
 

Wulfram

Member
Am I so out of touch?

No, its PEGI, ESRB, USK, and the BBFC who are wrong

PEGI, ESRB etc are operate under existing rules, and their responses reflect those rules. Its perfectly sensible to believe that the existing rules are wrong and lobby for those rules to change.
 
Gambling is regulated because the appeal of making money from the game. If you can't do that, it's not gambling. That doesn't mean loot boxes can't or shouldn't be regulated, but it's still wrong to call it gambling.
 

LordRaptor

Member
PEGI, ESRB etc are operate under existing rules, and their responses reflect those rules. Its perfectly sensible to believe that the existing rules are wrong and lobby for those rules to change.

My problem with this line of thinking is that agencies across the world, who are staffed by industry experts, have access to legal counsel, and have access to large amounts of data on player behaviours as well as recent peer approved behavioral studies have all come to a conclusion that a vocal minority don't like based on "feels".

I mean... there are enough horrific political decisions being based where people declare that their feels overrule informed experts on a subject.
 

Dougald

Member
Of course the Conservatives are ill-informed on the issue, just looking at their attitudes to encryption is bad enough

Labours deputy leader is a well known gamer though, but that would require them winning an election
 
It's not gambling it's taking a chance or a lucky dip or rather an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning virtual goods (you always win virtual goods but virtually useless virtual goods).

I don't see why having the odds would be bad. Well I guess the companies would argue those are trade secrets and/or general public doesn't know statistics so you get complaints along the lines of "I got 10 boxes and there is a 10% chance I got the thing and I did not get the thing and 10x10 equals 100..."

I'm missing something, why loot boxes became a thing recently? MMORPG is based on them from years.
Blizzard did it with great success (overwatch) is the short of it I think so now every game has it. But even then CSGo, TF2 (and these have a marketplace too and were sometimes used for gambling purposes via the Steam API).
 

LordRaptor

Member
Of course the Conservatives are ill-informed on the issue, just looking at their attitudes to encryption is bad enough

Its the Eurogamer article that says they are uninformed as op-ed, that doesn't automatically mean that they are.
Given they cite a commision report from March of this year that specifically involved investigating virtual currencies that nobody (including myself) seems to have been aware of or brought up in any of these discussions.... who is actually uninformed here?

e:
Because reading this report right now
3. Gambling with in-game items and virtual currencies

• Where in-game items can be traded or exchanged for money or money's worth
outside a video game, they acquire a monetary value and are themselves
considered money or money's worth.
• Where facilities for gambling with tradable in-game items are offered to British
consumers a licence is required.


3.1 Many video games incorporate in-game items to improve the enjoyment and longevity of a
game and to provide an alternative means of monetising a game title beyond the traditional
up-front purchase price. Individual game mechanics vary, but generally in-game items are
acquired through gameplay (randomly or as a reward), exchanged between players or
purchased from the game's publisher with real money.
3.2 While in-game items vary in form across the diverse range of video game genres and titles,
in general they are integrated directly to complement the nature of a particular game.
Examples include an in-game currency, points, spells, equipment, and weapons or weapon
skins (skins).
3.3 The use of in-game items within video games is not a new development. They have long
been used as a means of demonstrating personal achievements by players and facilitating
progress within games. As modern video-gaming has become increasingly social in nature,
aided by the availability of technology such as open application programming interfaces
(APIs), the use of in-game items such as virtual currencies has created some concerning
by-products.
3.4 To address some confusion caused by the references to ‘virtual' and ‘digital' currencies in
our discussion paper we have included in the glossary to this paper the distinction we draw
between the two. This paper is only concerned with virtual currencies in the form of ingame
items, using our glossary definition.
3.5 In response to our discussion paper, representatives of the video game industry have
explained that in-game items are provided in a ‘closed loop' fashion, meaning they are not
intended to be exchanged for cash, either with the games providers, with other players or
with third parties. The networks via which games are accessed, are not designed to have
open functionality to facilitate users trading in-game items with each other for money. This
approach is underpinned by the terms and conditions governing the use of the networks.

Virtual currencies, eSports and social gaming

3.6 In spite of the policy and intent to avoid in-game items attaining a real world value, the
video game industry has acknowledged that users of their game networks are
‘occasionally' exploiting their open nature to offer players opportunities to buy and sell ingame
items.
3.7 Based on open source research, the volume, variety and sophistication of websites
advertising opportunities to exchange in-game items for cash, indicates that to term such
circumvention of regulation as ‘occasional' risks understating the extent of this issue.
3.8 In our view, the ability to convert in-game items into cash, or to trade them (for other items
of value), means they attain a real world value and become articles of money or money's
worth. Where facilities for gambling are offered using such items, a licence is required in
exactly the same manner as would be expected in circumstances where somebody uses or
receives casino chips as a method of payment for gambling, which can later be exchanged
for cash.

Gambling facilities

3.9 Since 2015, we have investigated a number of unlicensed websites providing facilities for
gambling using in-game items as methods for payment. As well as offering the opportunity
to exchange in-game items for cash or trading them, these websites have exploited the
open nature of video game networks to offer gambling facilities to players. Of particular
concern is the apparently indiscriminate provision and promotion of such websites and the
consequential evidence of harm experienced by children. It creates a situation where
children are readily able to able to access activities commonly accepted as being
appropriate only for adults in tightly regulated environments.
3.10 Tackling operators making gambling facilities available to children was identified in our
discussion paper as a priority. This principle has subsequently been demonstrated in the
successful criminal prosecution of the operators and advertisers of the FutGalaxy website.
The judgement of the Court in our view reflects society's intolerance of those who seek to
exploit children for their own personal gain. We commented on the outcome of the case:
”This was one of the most serious cases that has been investigated and prosecuted by
the Commission. Its gravity is reflected in the significant financial penalties imposed by
the Judge. The defendants knew that the site was used by children and that their
conduct was illegal but they turned a blind eye in order to achieve substantial profits.
The effect on children of online gambling was rightly described by the Court as ‘horrific'
and ‘serious'. All websites offering gambling facilities in Britain must be licensed; it is
the only way in which children and vulnerable people can be protected. This case
demonstrates that we will use the full range of our statutory powers to investigate and
prosecute individuals and companies who try to operate illegally."
3.11 The FutGalaxy case also exposed a common theme which is the significant role social
media plays in promoting these unlicensed gambling websites seeking to associate
themselves with video gaming. We have seen numerous examples of the misuse of video
sharing platforms, live streaming and/or social media platforms to promote unlicensed
gambling. Such activities are often conducted with little or no regard to the protection of the
young or vulnerable and in some more extreme examples have been exposed as
deliberately misleading, for example by showing implausible winning streaks later found to
be false, with the seeming intent to entice the audience to gamble.

Virtual currencies, eSports and social gaming

‘Skin' gambling

3.12 In our discussion paper we drew particular attention to the issue of ‘skins' given their status
as the predominant example of in-game item gambling. ‘Skins' are in-game items, used
within some of the most popular video game titles. They provide cosmetic alterations to a
player's weapons, avatar or equipment used in the game and are valued by reference to
their rarity, aesthetics, utility and popularity. Prices are subject to constant fluctuation and
typically range from under £10 to £300, but with particularly rare items being valued at over
£1,000.
3.13 Given the wholly unregulated nature of ‘skin' gambling websites, it is difficult to get
authoritative data on the scale of this black market in Great Britain. However, there is
evidence of a dramatic increase in the supply and use of ‘skin' gambling websites in the
first half of 2016. Following adverse publicity and some high-profile activity by large video
game developers the illegal supply of these gambling facilities was subject to disruption. A
number of websites withdrew gambling facilities or adapted their business models having
been warned about misappropriating the game publisher's intellectual property in
contravention of the network's terms of use.
3.14 The boom in ‘skin' gambling has attracted the attention of law enforcement and regulatory
bodies around the globe. As part of our work we have engaged with a number of domestic
and international regulators who share a common interest in protecting consumers, and
children in particular, by seeking to disrupt the provision of illegal gambling facilities.
3.15 We recognise that in the casino chip analogy invariably it is the same entity who controls
the activity, the gambling and the cash-out facility. Applying that to the case studies we
have explored in the video game industry we acknowledge that it is possible for these three
functions to be offered by three different parties. We have not seen any evidence to
suggest games publishers, developers or network operators are intentionally providing or
advertising unlicensed facilities for gambling or entering commercial agreements with those
who are unlawfully doing so.
3.16 However, we are strongly of the view that the video games industry should not be, or
perceived to be, passive to the exploitation of their player community by predatory third
parties. The significant risk of harm posed by these unregulated gambling websites, whilst
unintended, is nonetheless a by-product of the manner in which games have been
developed and in-game economies incorporated for commercial benefit. Despite there
being no evidence of any direct commercial benefit to games publishers from the illegal
gambling facilities, it is reasonable to infer that there is an indirect benefit from these
activities given that it is the games publishers who are the ultimate source of in-game items
acting as a de-facto central bank. Where a player loses their entire ‘skin' inventory having
staked them unsuccessfully on gambling activities, one option for them is to purchase new
‘skins' from the games publishers, either for use within the game or for further gambling
stakes.

Game mechanics

3.17 Away from the third party websites which are overtly gambling (offering betting, casino
games and lottery products) the ability to exchange in-game items for cash or trade on
secondary markets also risks drawing elements within games themselves into gambling
definitions. By way of example, one commonly used method for players to acquire in-game
items is through the purchase of keys from the games publisher to unlock ‘crates', ‘cases'
or ‘bundles' which contain an unknown quantity and value of in-game items as a prize. The
payment of a stake (key) for the opportunity to win a prize (in-game items) determined (or
presented as determined) at random bears a close resemblance, for instance, to the
playing of a gaming machine. Where there are readily accessible opportunities to cash in or
exchange those awarded in-game items for money or money's worth those elements of the
game are likely to be considered licensable gambling activities.

Virtual currencies, eSports and social gaming

3.18 Additional consumer protection in the form of gambling regulation, is required in
circumstances where players are being incentivised to participate in gambling style
activities through the provision of prizes of money or money's worth. Where prizes are
successfully restricted for use solely within the game, such in-game features would not be
licensable gambling, notwithstanding the elements of expenditure and chance.
Approach
3.19 An appropriately targeted and proportionate use of our regulatory or criminal powers will
require an assessment of the circumstances in a particular case. In particular we will
consider the scale and availability of unlicensed gambling facilities to British consumers,
the identification and location of the operator and the means or sources of payment
processing and advertising utilised. As indicated in the discussion paper, whilst any illegal
gambling requires a response, evidence of a risk of harm to children is and will remain a
significant aggravating factor.
3.20 Adopting a zero-tolerance approach to small scale or ad-hoc secondary markets for ingame
items (thereby bringing activities conducted in games themselves or on games
platforms within the definitions of gambling) may not be practical or proportionate to the
risks posed to the licensing objectives. The proximity of any facilities for gambling to the
means of exchanging items for cash, overt relationships between the two and/or the ease
with which such transactions are conducted, are likely to be the key considerations when
prioritising our enforcement activity. On occasions where serious concern exists under
those criteria we are clear that primary responsibility lies with those operating the
unlicensed gambling websites. However, we will also liaise with games publishers and/or
network operators who may unintentionally be enabling the criminal activity.
3.21 We are encouraged by the sentiments expressed, both individually and through
representative organisations of the video game industry, that it is committed to working with
us to prevent customers experiencing gambling-related harm through their platforms as
well. We agree that aside from the moral reasons for finding solutions there should also be
legal, commercial and reputational drivers. Reports of the estimated impact of the action
taken by one prominent game developer to crack down on misuse of their network during
2016 is, to us, a powerful indicator of the positive role network providers can play in
protecting their community of players.
3.22 Having demonstrated what can be achieved during 2016, we will be looking to engage
further with the video games industry to understand how these initial steps can develop into
effective and sustainable longer term solutions.
3.23 All interested parties should be clear, that where gambling facilities are offered to British
consumers, including with the use of in-game items that can be converted into cash or
traded (for items of value), a licence is required.

"LOL WHATS A LOOTCRATE AMIRITE?" seems an unfair response
 

Audioboxer

Member
Transparency.

All "winning" odds, rare chance drops etc should be 100% visible, clear and honest.

I'm still prodding all gaming journalists to try and do their best for more "inside comments" on drop rates behind the scenes. Do they get changed with none of us knowing? Do they get changed purposefully to give "the house" better odds when more money is desired? Do they get discussed on an open forum internally, or is it just the bigwigs who set the numbers? Etc.

Without going too far down the rabbit hole with conspiracies, I have a personal feeling if some journalists can do some investigatory work into drop rates inside the companies, it might catch more eyes. Maybe it is all above board, but transparency should still be key. Blizzard acting like they did in China does give gamers some fuel to think about the worst-case scenarios.

Jim Sterling/Press Sneak Fuck and others please keep an ear open to any of the above.
 

LordRaptor

Member
Jim Sterling/Press Sneak Fuck and others please keep an ear open to any of the above.

Jim Sterling is a pundit not a journalist.
He has openly and repeatedly said this himself.

My major problem with his fanbase that like to state things that are demonstrably not true and then just go "look heres a video" is either their unwillingness or inability to know the difference.
 

Audioboxer

Member
Jim Sterling is a pundit not a journalist.
He has openly and repeatedly said this himself.

My major problem with his fanbase that like to state things that are demonstrably not true and then just go "look heres a video" is either their unwillingness or inability to know the difference.

He's known as someone outspoken to industry bullshit, so if you were someone wanting to send off tip somewhere, I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up with JS. You could guarantee he'd talk about it and it would have wide reach. Let's not pretend he won't have industry contacts either considering he did used to work in the traditional games media and knows a lot of people.

But okay, no, he's not a journalist anymore if you just want me to admit that.
 
I'm not really sure where people are trying to take this... I understand the idea of wanting more disclosure for sure. I'd be happy with games indicating that they contain in-game transactions on the box and store pages.

As far as "protecting the children", I feel the solution above in combination with parental controls are more than sufficient. Adults with gambling addictions are another story, but to me that brings up the topic of gaming addiction as well. I'd much rather the industry self regulate than have various governments directly involved.
 
As annoying as loot boxes can be, how are they any different to something like pokemon/yu-gi-oh/sports cards, various arcade machines & other child orientated toys? Other than being digital, it's essentially the same principle, yet those aren't considered gambling.
 
We can't trust the industry to regulate itself without the threat of government intervention. Of course the ESRB wouldn't do anything about this, they are the industry. They have a massive conflict of interest.
 

Budi

Member
As annoying as loot boxes can be, how are they any different to something like pokemon/yu-gi-oh/sports cards, various arcade machines & other child orientated toys? Other than being digital, it's essentially the same principle, yet those aren't considered gambling.
I would love if any game with loot boxes would offer the possibility to sell, buy and trade those items from the blind packs freely. Like we can do with sports cards and such. Steam Marketplace allows this and I'd like to see more devs using it (like PUBG) or building similar service to their own platform like in Battle.net for example. As of right now, Blizzard lootboxes and Pokemon or sports cards aren't at all comparable.
 

MJLord

Member
We can't trust the industry to regulate itself without the threat of government intervention. Of course the ESRB wouldn't do anything about this, they are the industry. They have a massive conflict of interest.

That's how these regulators work. The Gambling Comission regularly cracks down on people to avoid being regulated by legislation.
 

Audioboxer

Member
As annoying as loot boxes can be, how are they any different to something like pokemon/yu-gi-oh/sports cards, various arcade machines & other child orientated toys? Other than being digital, it's essentially the same principle, yet those aren't considered gambling.

Well, that is quite a big difference, they're not physical products and due to how digital server-side drop rates work.

Plus as discovered by myself as I don't actually buy trading cards, they do actually tell you their drop rates and have done for years. That's another big difference as it's one of the main arguments many of us are making, the industry should either self-regulate drop rates or be asked to.
 

KJRS_1993

Member
The UK government are painfully out of touch with these sorts of things, as made evident every time Amber Rudd tries to talk about encryption on messaging platforms.
 

sasliquid

Member
Did anyone think the Conservative party would go out of their way to try and curb destructive out of control capitalism?
 

LordRaptor

Member
The UK government are painfully out of touch with these sorts of things, as made evident every time Amber Rudd tries to talk about encryption on messaging platforms.

I mean, I'll take easy pot shots at tory scum all day long for shits and giggles, but if you can't be bothered to read the findings of whats is a pretty extensive report on the matter - or even the TL;DR part directly related to this specific subject I directly quoted above - you don't get the luxury of declaring other people ill informed or out of touch.

It's a long ass report and it covers a wide range of topics, including ones you might not have even considered, like collusion and throwing games by teams in eSports.
I find it strange that people who purport to genuinely care about this topic can't be arsed to read the actual findings of a commission presented in objective fashion.
 

Tacitus_

Member
I would love if any game with loot boxes would offer the possibility to sell, buy and trade those items from the blind packs freely. Like we can do with sports cards and such. Steam Marketplace allows this and I'd like to see more devs using it (like PUBG) or building similar service to their own platform like in Battle.net for example. As of right now, Blizzard lootboxes and Pokemon or sports cards aren't at all comparable.

I feel that being able to cash out your lootbox's contents is more problematic than not being able to. It gives actual monetary value to what you are buying.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
I feel that being able to cash out your lootbox's contents is more problematic than not being able to. It gives actual monetary value to what you are buying.

You should able to trade your lootbox shit on an online market place. It's why trading cards were never considered some big problem, the ability to trade what you don't want for the stuff you actually do, makes the trash drops less completely trash.

Prevents you you from playing the roulette and coming out with something that is for all intents and purposes jack shit.
 

Budi

Member
I feel that being able to cash out your lootbox's contents is more problematic than not being able to. It gives actual monetary value to what you are buying.
Ah sure, that is true. In PUBG which I used as an example I think you can only buy loot boxes with in-game currency though, atleast that used to be the case. I don't mind having random rewards in games per se, if they are just that or part of progression with in-game currency and not the monetization. And atleast buying directly from another user adds an alternative to just buying a big in a poke.
 

Azusa

Member
Blizzard did it with great success (overwatch) is the short of it I think so now every game has it. But even then CSGo, TF2 (and these have a marketplace too and were sometimes used for gambling purposes via the Steam API).

You mean some few games. Comparing to all games released this year only very few are with lootboxes.
 

amdb00mer

Member
Here is the thing, some of these loot boxes can be bought with REAL currency. You have to pay REAL money to buy premium virtual currency which you then use to gamble in the game on some of these loot boxes.
 

KJRS_1993

Member
I mean, I'll take easy pot shots at tory scum all day long for shits and giggles, but if you can't be bothered to read the findings of whats is a pretty extensive report on the matter - or even the TL;DR part directly related to this specific subject I directly quoted above - you don't get the luxury of declaring other people ill informed or out of touch.

Not quite sure what me thinking the government is out of touch with technology has to do with my own personal ability to recite the complete findings of the report, but there you go.

I read the pass notes in the OP. I don't think reading the entire report is a prerequisite to leave a comment about it. You'll be okay.
 

nynt9

Member
This is the problem with trying to get the government to regulate loot boxes. They don’t understand the landscape at all, and whatever action they take (if they are forced to) will be very short sighted and paint in broad strokes. I don’t think anything they implement will be beneficial to games as a whole.
 

David___

Banned
People should stop saying a circle is a square then trying to fit said circle into the square hole if they want any action taken against loot boxes
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
This is the problem with trying to get the government to regulate loot boxes. They don’t understand the landscape at all, and whatever action they take (if they are forced to) will be very short sighted and paint in broad strokes. I don’t think anything they implement will be beneficial to games as a whole.

I think the most important thing is a threat of impeding government regulation. It's why entities like ESRB and PEGI exist. If they honestly think something is coming self regulation will do it's thing.
 

Durante

Member
"LOL WHATS A LOOTCRATE AMIRITE?" seems an unfair response
3.17 doesn't seem to jive with your "fuck yeah lootcrates" stance.

The way I read that, every game with random rewards in return for real money is subject to gambling legislation as soon as someone figures out how to create a third-party marketplace for it (e.g. by selling accounts).
 
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