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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
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Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
bengraven said:
No. Well, I liked the second Davos chapter. The first Davos chapter felt entirely unnceccessary and served only to throw another possibility for Jon's mother at the reader. Which would have been more interesting if it wasn't against everything we know so far, or maybe think we know. Most of clues all point Jon being born in Dorne or close to it no matter who his mother is. Fish bitch seems incredibly unlikely although it would be kind of funny if the fish lady was his wife and Jon's actually dead. Funny and really really disappointing and sad.
edit: I'd say Jon had the best chapter in the book. The one where he kills Slynt. I loved that. Other than that his chapters were pretty repetitive. Not necessarily bad, just reptitive. Theon may have had the best chapters. Arya's were pretty good. Her and Selmy's were the only Essos chapters I enjoyed aside from Quentyn's last. Tyrion had his moments but overall his were pretty weak and Dany's just plain sucked. Everyone else was alright.
yacobod said:
I mostly agree with you, but thought that the Arya chapters were quite good. I have loved her entire subplot after reaching the house of Black and White. Really excited to see where that goes in the future.
EDIT: I am surprised to see that some people finished the book before they realized that Mance was Abel. I am not going to pretend I had it figured out the second they introduced Abel and his washerwomen, but I clued in the second time one of the women approached Theon. By the time they were trying to escape with Jeyne, I thought it would be obvious to all that Abel was Mance and the women his spear wives.
Some of you read way too fast.
WTF? WTF?
Did Jon die?! What the hell??? We didn't get confirmation like in the Red Wedding but I felt sick to my stomach at that last scene the same way I did when Catelyn felt that armor on the Frey.
The East suuuuuuuuuuuuuuucked. Daenarys is so insanely boring and I was actually rooting for her to die in that last chapter. Too bad she didn't.
The POVs were all over the place but the best ones would have to be Arya (just because its been 6 years and we need more Arya) and Theon. The northern parts were the best part about the whole book with Theon's semi redemption. I also hope Davos and Manderly wreck some people up. I hope Dany finally crosses the narrow sea because if I have to read about Meeren and merchants and Dario's beard for one more entire book I will scream.
Did Jon die?! What the hell??? We didn't get confirmation like in the Red Wedding but I felt sick to my stomach at that last scene the same way I did when Catelyn felt that armor on the Frey.
The East suuuuuuuuuuuuuuucked. Daenarys is so insanely boring and I was actually rooting for her to die in that last chapter. Too bad she didn't.
The POVs were all over the place but the best ones would have to be Arya (just because its been 6 years and we need more Arya) and Theon. The northern parts were the best part about the whole book with Theon's semi redemption. I also hope Davos and Manderly wreck some people up. I hope Dany finally crosses the narrow sea because if I have to read about Meeren and merchants and Dario's beard for one more entire book I will scream.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
zeroshiki said:
He's definitely not dead dead (or he'd be the first major death in the series that happened right at the end and we weren't given any sort of confirmation, also I feel he'd probably be the last non-epilogue chapter as Jon's death is a lot more shocking than Dany finding more fucking Dothraki). What state he's in his up for debate. The story points to him being reborn somehow, we'll unfortunately have to wait. Wish George had given us some closure.
This book was very bad for closure in general.
At least in Books 1-3 you felt like most of the plots had come to a natural turning point before the book ends. ADWDs just leaves most of the characters hanging. The battle between Meereen and Yankai that was building for the entire book should have actually been IN the book.
While I am sure that GRRM will stretch it out to 20 chapters in the next book, the Meereen situation situation could be wrapped up in 5-6 more chapters. 2 for Dany, 1 for Selmy, 1 for Tyrion, and 1-2 for Victarion. Maybe even less. With a little re-arranging, and maybe pushing the Arya stuff to next book (as much as I loved those chapters), he could have fit in a proper conclusion to Meereen without too many additional pages.
At least in Books 1-3 you felt like most of the plots had come to a natural turning point before the book ends. ADWDs just leaves most of the characters hanging. The battle between Meereen and Yankai that was building for the entire book should have actually been IN the book.
While I am sure that GRRM will stretch it out to 20 chapters in the next book, the Meereen situation situation could be wrapped up in 5-6 more chapters. 2 for Dany, 1 for Selmy, 1 for Tyrion, and 1-2 for Victarion. Maybe even less. With a little re-arranging, and maybe pushing the Arya stuff to next book (as much as I loved those chapters), he could have fit in a proper conclusion to Meereen without too many additional pages.
After thinking about why Dany's stuff was so weak, I sort of wonder if she was a total victim of the decision to not skip five years. Having her spend five years off-camera basically training for ruling the Seven Kingdoms by trying to get shit in Meereen together and ultimately failing makes sense, and things could have picked up right before her wedding or something. Two pages of her fucking Daario, the revelation that the dragons started to eat people and she's had them locked up for years, then into the wedding/fighting pits/post-flight stuff so she can get back to actually doing things. I'm assuming there's some plot-related thing that has to happen before she can actually leave for Westeros, and most of her chapters in this book are just status updates while she idles around waiting for... whatever interesting thing is coming.
Fully expecting Melisandre to have kept Jon Snow from dying using magic powers, and this to drive a final wedge between him and the rest of the night's watch, so he winds up taking off with the wildlings to rescue Mance or something.
Disappointed we didn't get Cersei's Trial By Combat, but I guess the epilogue wouldn't have worked as well if we had. Fully expecting Robert the Strong to prove her innocence, and then Varys to work double-time getting her back in power to drive a gigantic wedge between the throne and the church. Then she can fuck up things really good, Jaime can come back, and he can kill her becoming both Kingslayer and Queenslayer by offing his second totally insane monarch.
Fully expecting Melisandre to have kept Jon Snow from dying using magic powers, and this to drive a final wedge between him and the rest of the night's watch, so he winds up taking off with the wildlings to rescue Mance or something.
Disappointed we didn't get Cersei's Trial By Combat, but I guess the epilogue wouldn't have worked as well if we had. Fully expecting Robert the Strong to prove her innocence, and then Varys to work double-time getting her back in power to drive a gigantic wedge between the throne and the church. Then she can fuck up things really good, Jaime can come back, and he can kill her becoming both Kingslayer and Queenslayer by offing his second totally insane monarch.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Tyrion barely did anything of note except for convincing Aegon to head to Westeros. We finally get a Targ over there. Good job Dany
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
zeroshiki said:
Yeah, she's the one character I've always felt to be invincible. Kind of Tyrion too, but only because he's Martin's favorite, and Tyrion's lovable so I let it slide.
sazabirules
Unconfirmed Member
Does anyone actually think Plumm was the last betrayal? I don't think it is him. Sellswords have switched sides so many times in the series.
Will the Sand Snake going to King's Landing be able to identify Gregor?
Will the Sand Snake going to King's Landing be able to identify Gregor?
sazabirules said:
I think that Dany has more than one of her betrayals wrong. I agree that Plumm is probably not one of the prophesied betrayals, but I also think that she is wrong about Jorah being one of them (at least based on what he has done so far).
Her Meerenese King betraying her for a crown makes more sense than Plumm for the "for gold" betrayal. Dany doesn't know about that yet though.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:
I don't see how Dany is a Mary Sue character. Because she doesn't end up dying? For every wise action she chooses, she makes 2-3 stupid ones. No "good" character infuriates me more than Dany over how many dumb decisions they make. Her hissy-fit over Jorah's "betrayal", the way she reacts to Drogon killing a little girl, her actions in Meereen, the sub-plot with Daario; I think GRRM does a good showing that, while Dany has a lot of strength, she is still an idealistic little girl.
EDIT: Jon is more a Mary Sue character than Dany. No 16 year old is as wise and mature as Jon is being portrayed.
zeroshiki said:
Haha, this is how I feel as well. Robb gets his head cut off and his wolf's head sewn on his shoulders and his army destroyed. Jon gets Caesar'd. But she gets some hair singed off and comes upon yet another army to aid her in the giant clusterfuck she made of her own doing? Meh.
sazabirules
Unconfirmed Member
dabig2 said:
Who said the Dothraki are going to help her?
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
sazabirules said:
IF Plumm is, that's really weak. Plumm is just a lesson that she'll be too stupid to fully learn. It's likely Daario. I forget what the last betrayal is supposed to be for but if it's love, it could be Barristen betraying her for Ashara Dayne if she still lives.
dabig2 said:
Yeah, she's going to bend those Dothraki to her will. Her blundering through Essos will just keep making her more powerful.
kswiston said:
This. We all know how brutal George's world is and she gets to whine about doing this and that and we know she's not going to die anytime soon. I know it's part of her character but frankly, if it weren't for the dragons, her story arc has been pretty boring since the beginning of the series.
sazabirules
Unconfirmed Member
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:
Yeah I thought it was obvious it would eventually be revealed as Daario.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:
I thought Dany, Tyrion and Jon would be invincible. But then we got other POVs at the Wall and Jon's last chapter so I dono.
Dany is just annoying though. The whole East is one big snoozefest. Martin should have cut out all the Dany chapters and just given us more Arya or something.
ZephyrFate
Banned
Well, yes, these two books are meant to setup TWOW, much like AGOT and ACOK setup ASOS.kswiston said:
Still amused that people think Dany's chapters were boring.
ZephyrFate said:
AGOT and ACOK had more plot resolutions (for the majority of viewpoints) than ADWD did. Even AFFC has more natural feeling conclusions. Almost all of the Slaver Bay viewpoints felt as though they were left hanging. Especially Tyrion and Selmy. Davos disappears halfway through the book (though this was done with Bran as well in ASOS). None of the battles the book builds toward happen.
If A Clash of Kings was written the same way A Dance with Dragons was, it would have stopped before the battle of the Blackwater. How satisfying would that have been? I am not saying that the world building should be cut (I enjoyed seeing more of the free cities and Slaver bay). However, at least one of the major point points should have come to a resolution. The siege of Meereen makes the most sense.
ZephyrFate
Banned
Well, yeah, I didn't expect 'resolutions' in these novels. TWIW is being setup to be incredibly epic, so AFFC/DWD had the pawns on the chessboard be moved around to make that possible. They are very much transitional novels meant to establish the world better and get the characters where they need to be so that really big things can happen (even though really big things did happen in AFFC/DWD).
Basileus777
Member
ZephyrFate said:
GRRM's editor told him to move two major sequences to the next book, so some of the conclusion was shifted forward.
ZephyrFate
Banned
I have a feeling these two events that were moved forward were epic enough to fit in with whatever ridiculous amount of epic will be in the next novel. Probably the Stannis thing, right?Basileus777 said:
Basileus777
Member
ZephyrFate said:
I imagine that's one of them. The other could be the Dornish plot, though I think GRRM may have shift that to Winds a while ago.
I think the editor's reasoning was that the book was already super-long and it would have taken GRRM more time to finish and polish those sequences, so she said cut it off here and finish the book.
ZephyrFate said:
That may be true but Martin actually wanted those things in ADwD if I'm going to assume it's much more fitting to this book than TWoW. And the biggest thing stopping that was not enough room apparently. Have a few less Tyrion chapters and that would have worked. I think Martin originally only had 4 or 5 Tyrion chapters planned anyway.
Did anyone absolutely LOVE Dolorous Edd's scenes in ADWD? I feel like Martin realized that Edd has become a fan favorite and decided to go all-out with him, giving him something funny to say in almost every Jon scene. I really appreciated that.
He's innocent, loves his kittens, would clearly be a kind and gentle king, AND he wants to train as a knight. It really broke my heart in AFFC when Cersei wouldn't let him train with Ser Loras, because you know Ser Loras would teach him what's what. Few things are worse than wasted potential. Tommen would be a great king in a few years if he could get away from his awful family and train under some people with good heads on their shoulders.
kswiston said:
He's innocent, loves his kittens, would clearly be a kind and gentle king, AND he wants to train as a knight. It really broke my heart in AFFC when Cersei wouldn't let him train with Ser Loras, because you know Ser Loras would teach him what's what. Few things are worse than wasted potential. Tommen would be a great king in a few years if he could get away from his awful family and train under some people with good heads on their shoulders.
I think it's interesting that people think Jon did everything right--he was in a shitty situation, but he seemed to wind up following a similar path to Robb. He won his individual battles, but in the process lost the war by alienating a substantial portion of the Night's Watch.
I thought Martin was setting him up for failure early on, when Jon decided being The Boss meant no more eating with his friends because they needed to not see him as one of them. One of the earlier books spent time describing how Ned made sure to have a rotating spot at his table for one of his servants, and how that was generally a smart thing for a leader to do.
Then Jon follows up by making more unpopular decisions, while shipping the people most likely to stay loyal off to other locations, all the while relying on some Ned Stark concept of honor to keep his men loyal.
Is there any popular interpetation of the AFfC prophecy that doesn't require Tommen dying and Myrcella becoming queen before Cersei's death? The poor kid isn't even playing the game, he's just hanging out enjoying stamping seals and being adorable. But I kind of feel like they're setting up for Dorne killing him off so Myrcella can become queen.
I thought Martin was setting him up for failure early on, when Jon decided being The Boss meant no more eating with his friends because they needed to not see him as one of them. One of the earlier books spent time describing how Ned made sure to have a rotating spot at his table for one of his servants, and how that was generally a smart thing for a leader to do.
Then Jon follows up by making more unpopular decisions, while shipping the people most likely to stay loyal off to other locations, all the while relying on some Ned Stark concept of honor to keep his men loyal.
Puddles said:
Is there any popular interpetation of the AFfC prophecy that doesn't require Tommen dying and Myrcella becoming queen before Cersei's death? The poor kid isn't even playing the game, he's just hanging out enjoying stamping seals and being adorable. But I kind of feel like they're setting up for Dorne killing him off so Myrcella can become queen.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
I'd rather see Tommen sit the throne rather than any of the other current contenders. Unfortunately Varys is setting him up for failure. Kevan seemed to have been able to set things in order. Even Pycelle was counseling against Cersei's idiotic decisions in the last book, but he's gone as well. Varys will see Cersei rise back up, and she'll be angrier than ever. And as Tyrion said, angry makes her stupid. So she'll be even worse. Tommen is fucked.
sazabirules
Unconfirmed Member
iammeiam said:
I kind of thought something bad was going to happen because all of Jon's friends were gone.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
kswiston said:
I think Plumm was the second betrayal, but Jorah wasn't one. Jorah was reporting to Varys before he even knew Dany, and he stopped. Dany thinks of him as a betrayal, but he didn't really betray her.
The way I see it:
Blood: Mirri
Gold: Plumm
Love: ?
I just think that Dany's betrayals will be more consequential than Brown Ben switching sides. especially since it seems like Tyrion will be directing them back towards Dany's side in Winds.
In the end, Brown Ben switching sides really doesn't affect Daenarys that much, so it doesn't seem like a very important betrayal. Her husband betrayed her more than Brown Ben Plum did.
In the end, Brown Ben switching sides really doesn't affect Daenarys that much, so it doesn't seem like a very important betrayal. Her husband betrayed her more than Brown Ben Plum did.
ZephyrFate
Banned
I hope I'm not the only one who wants Jon's death to be guaranteed.sazabirules said:
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
ZephyrFate said:
Why? It would be poor writing. Bold, but poor. His death would ignore all the foreshadowing so far in the story. The incredibly contrived way he got rid of Ghost for the scene has to have significance. The mystery surrounding his parentage. What's the point if he's dead? All the buildup in his story, for what? To be shocking? To show that no character is safe? Frankly I'd be 100 times more shocked if Dany died (happy too cause I hate her and she's the most invincible character in the story), but that would be just as poor as Jon actually dying.
ZephyrFate
Banned
So... it's poor if he feints us out with fake deaths, but it's more poor if they just die? Where the fuck's the middle ground?Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:
sazabirules
Unconfirmed Member
I asked in the other thread but what is a wayn? A carriage or wagon? The internet doesn't give me a definition of the word. I don't think I'm spelling the word wrong.
QuiteWhittle
Member
It would be really funny if Jon snow ended up dead.
Not only is he a fan favorite, he has the most chapters and words dedicated to him, nearly all build up for something bigger. Not only that, Martin, if Jon is truly dead, went out his way to write prophesies, dreams, and hints to imply otherwise. Combine all that with the fact that the way Jon's death was written would be several firsts among POVs and that Jon's true parentage has yet to be revealed, then Martin has given the reader plenty to suspect Jon's survival.
IF Jon dies then Martin has effectively trolled his reader base. That would be both awesome and terrible.
Not only is he a fan favorite, he has the most chapters and words dedicated to him, nearly all build up for something bigger. Not only that, Martin, if Jon is truly dead, went out his way to write prophesies, dreams, and hints to imply otherwise. Combine all that with the fact that the way Jon's death was written would be several firsts among POVs and that Jon's true parentage has yet to be revealed, then Martin has given the reader plenty to suspect Jon's survival.
IF Jon dies then Martin has effectively trolled his reader base. That would be both awesome and terrible.
Jon and Dany can't fucking die unless it happens towards the end of the final book, and neither can Tyrion. If they do, the series is pretty much over. No one gives a fuck if a few nerds complain about "invincible" characters. You know damn well that Luke isn't going to die when you're watching Star Wars, and the film isn't any worse for that. GRRM has already killed enough characters that his readers loved; those three along with Arya are pretty much all that's left.
If GRRM needs a shocking death, some good candidates would be Cersei, Samwell, Sansa, Rickon, hell, even Bran.
If GRRM needs a shocking death, some good candidates would be Cersei, Samwell, Sansa, Rickon, hell, even Bran.
Just finished the book. I have to agree with most people here that the Dany chapters were definitely the weakest, especially the early ones. The later ones got better, but the early ones were a bit of a drag. Well, the single weakest chapter was Davos' fist one, but his other chapters improved on that.
I felt that the Theon/Reek chapters were the strongest, which surprised me, as well as everything to do with the Golden Company.
Even though I think the dany chapters were definitely the weakest, I still enjoyed them and felt like it was a great book. And I strongly disagree with people calling Dany and Jon mary sue characters. For one, they have real flaws and make mistakes, and those mistakes blow up in their faces. Jon's mistakes might cost him his life.
In general, I thought the stuff happening around Meereen was simply weaker. Sure, Barriston's chapters were quite good, as well as Victarions (surprisingly). But I thought Quentyn Martell's chapters were among the weakest, and even Tyrion's chapters in Slaver's bay were definitely a step down from his usual awesomeness. I felt like his Golden Company chapters were a lot more interesting - mostly because of more interesting characters around him. The whole Penny thing was pretty dull, and its pretty obvious that she wants Tyrion to replace her brothers role/job in her life, except they would be screwing each other as well.
All I can say is that Tyrion and Dany better meet since that would be all sorts of awesome. It would instantly make Dany's chapters a whole lot more interesting and would give Tyrion a foil - someone to spark dramatic, intense, and interesting conversations. Tense drama is not what I would say would describe Tyrion's convo's with Penny and Jorah.
I am pretty shocked at what happened to Jon, but looking back at his actions it definitely makes sense. He acted like he had invincible armor on (I thought he had invincible character armor on as well - probably why I am shocked) , sending all of his friends away, making alliances with the wildings, etc, I think going South after Mance and Ramsey was simply the last straw for the people who disagreed with him. And they definitely do have a point. Well, I agree with Jon about alliances with the Wildings because that just makes sense, but going South to attack the Boltons and break your oaths? I think that was simply the last straw for people who disagreed with him on all of his other actions.
It definitely was shocking, but I don't think he is dead. Mellisandre was placed there for a reason and she has seen him in the fires. I don't think she will let him die. She either will save his life or give him back his 'life' Thoros style. I am thinking the former since having two major corpse characters would be a bit odd
As for where I would place this book, I would say its behind ASoS, but tied with ACOK in second place. AGOT follows closely behind, while AFFC lags a bit behind the others
I felt that the Theon/Reek chapters were the strongest, which surprised me, as well as everything to do with the Golden Company.
Even though I think the dany chapters were definitely the weakest, I still enjoyed them and felt like it was a great book. And I strongly disagree with people calling Dany and Jon mary sue characters. For one, they have real flaws and make mistakes, and those mistakes blow up in their faces. Jon's mistakes might cost him his life.
In general, I thought the stuff happening around Meereen was simply weaker. Sure, Barriston's chapters were quite good, as well as Victarions (surprisingly). But I thought Quentyn Martell's chapters were among the weakest, and even Tyrion's chapters in Slaver's bay were definitely a step down from his usual awesomeness. I felt like his Golden Company chapters were a lot more interesting - mostly because of more interesting characters around him. The whole Penny thing was pretty dull, and its pretty obvious that she wants Tyrion to replace her brothers role/job in her life, except they would be screwing each other as well.
All I can say is that Tyrion and Dany better meet since that would be all sorts of awesome. It would instantly make Dany's chapters a whole lot more interesting and would give Tyrion a foil - someone to spark dramatic, intense, and interesting conversations. Tense drama is not what I would say would describe Tyrion's convo's with Penny and Jorah.
I am pretty shocked at what happened to Jon, but looking back at his actions it definitely makes sense. He acted like he had invincible armor on (I thought he had invincible character armor on as well - probably why I am shocked) , sending all of his friends away, making alliances with the wildings, etc, I think going South after Mance and Ramsey was simply the last straw for the people who disagreed with him. And they definitely do have a point. Well, I agree with Jon about alliances with the Wildings because that just makes sense, but going South to attack the Boltons and break your oaths? I think that was simply the last straw for people who disagreed with him on all of his other actions.
It definitely was shocking, but I don't think he is dead. Mellisandre was placed there for a reason and she has seen him in the fires. I don't think she will let him die. She either will save his life or give him back his 'life' Thoros style. I am thinking the former since having two major corpse characters would be a bit odd
As for where I would place this book, I would say its behind ASoS, but tied with ACOK in second place. AGOT follows closely behind, while AFFC lags a bit behind the others
A Mary Sue is a young prodigy who can do no wrong and who serves as a fantasy fulfillment for the author. There are no characters in ASoIaF who qualify, IMO. The original Mary Sue was some 15 year old lieutenant on the Enterprise, the youngest ever to graduate from Starfleet Academy. I guess you can say that Jon is probably the youngest commander of the Night's Watch, but he went through incredible trials to get to that point, and he failed plenty of times along the way. The only character that GRRM has ever described as an avatar for himself is Tyrion, and the Imp isn't exactly a happy dude with everything going his way.
elrechazado
Banned
AFFC makes it clear jon's not the youngest ever to be lord commander, by far.Puddles said:
elrechazao said:
10-11 years old, right?
Anyway, Jon declaring that he was going to march south against the Bolton's was just stupid. No man of the night's watch can do that, especially not the Lord Commander. He was, most severely, betraying his oaths. And even if he lives, which I think he will, there will be severe repercussions for that blunder - most likely him being forced out/fleeing from the Night's Watch - undoing all that he did with the wildings, and making it so much easier for the Others increase their numbers and come poring through.
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