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Opinion article: China has won the internet's future

L

Lagamorph

Member
A short, but sadly accurate given how things are going, opinion piece on the future of the internet.

China pioneered a very different conception of the internet. The Communist Party managed to exclude the Silicon Valley giants that have carved up the rest of the digital world. Instead, homegrown services like WeChat, which has one billion users, dominate. The government has access to all those users' data. If you type a banned word or phrase in a group message, it simply won't appear on the other person's phone. Censored terms include 'Tiananmen Incident' and even 'Winnie the Pooh', after internet users spotted a physical resemblance between President Xi and the bear of very little brain.
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According to Huang Yuan, writing in the London Review of Books: "When the internet first appeared, many people, including some Chinese, were optimistic about horizontality, elective mass communication, free flows of information and the empowerment of the individual voice, but it has since become clear that the internet has very little to do with freedom and much more to do with control."
Click to expand...

In the UK, the government constantly puts pressure on technology companies to "do more" - to prevent radicalisation, to detect and censor inappropriate posts from their users, to keep children safe online - the traditional functions of democratically-elected government. But the British state is also taking back control: the Digital Economy Act, passed in April this year, bans citizens' access to perfectly legal websites that don't meet its requirements.
Click to expand...

For a long time, the Chinese approach to the internet appeared to be a relic of a repressive past. These days, depressingly, it looks like the future.
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http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-uk-now-closer-to-chinese-web-model-11085861
 
J

JettDash

Junior Member
I guess China has won the future of the internet inside of China. I'm not sure how that is supposed to impact me. I highly doubt that Google is going to start censoring what Americans can see because the Chinese government says so.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Hickbilly Deluxe said:
In China you get what you get, in the rest of the world you get what the majority votes for.

Meh.
Click to expand...

I don't think the majority voted for the rise of right wing nationalism.

I'm not sure which I prefer though. A state approved internet or constantly being under the threat of extremism. I suppose the solution is some kind of middle ground.
 
P

Principate

Saint Titanfall
JettDash said:
I guess China has won the future of the internet inside of China. I'm not sure how that is supposed to impact me. I highly doubt that Google is going to start censoring this that Americans can see because the Chinese government says so.
Click to expand...

I think it's talking about general censorship and that already happens.
 
F

Fallout-NL

Member
What a load of horseshit.

You don't fight radicalisation, hate, harassment, racism and discrimination by censoring it after it has already taken root through the implementation of a full on police state. You combat it by improving education and fighting income inequality.
 
L

Lagamorph

Member
Fallout-NL said:
You don't fight radicalisation, hate, harassment, racism and discrimination by censoring it after it has already taken root. You combat it by improving education and income inequality.
Click to expand...
True.
But how many governments are going to do that compared to how many think it's an easy 'win' to just try and censor it after the fact?
 
M

Mivey

Member
JettDash said:
I guess China has won the future of the internet inside of China. I'm not sure how that is supposed to impact me. I highly doubt that Google is going to start censoring what Americans can see because the Chinese government says so.
Click to expand...
It might encourage other regimes to follow suite.
No direct consequence for the west, but it shatters the, rather naive, expectation that having an internet connection alone is somehow enough (or even a factor) to bring democracy to the rest of the world.
 
L

liquidtmd

Banned
Censored terms include...even 'Winnie the Pooh', after internet users spotted a physical resemblance between President Xi and the bear of very little brain.
Click to expand...

Or maybe the just played the mobile baseball game?
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I think a lot of well-meaning people would probably wish for China-style oversight in the name of, for example, fighting hate speech on Twitter.

I don't mind when online services self-regulate because popular perception is that their product leads to shitty outcomes.... but that's a big difference from having government mandate it.
 
KarneeKarnay

KarneeKarnay

Member
Has it though?


I mean China has played a good game, but it's done it by restricting all competition to nothing.

I always laugh when I hear stories like this.

"China XXX has more than a billion users."

Well yeah it will. It's the only thing they can use. The problem is that the market outside of China is pretty healthy. Competition has given way to innovation.
 
O

Oberon

Banned
Firemind said:
Democracy has worked out great hasn't it?
Click to expand...

This is a very shortsighted comment. It's the least bad thing we got. Of course it can always get improved, and if I had to choose between faulty democracy and communists regime I know which one to choose.
 
S

Stop It

Perfectly able to grasp the inherent value of the fishing game.
Lagamorph said:
True.
But how many governments are going to do that compared to how many think it's an easy 'win' to just try and censor it after the fact?
Click to expand...
Just because you can't be bothered to look up government efforts to stop extremism at the grass roots, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

The UK has the oft criticised Prevent programme and I can guarantee other European countries have similar.

That doesn't preclude taking down extremist content from social media either. Outside the US, there is no protection for hate speech, and asking social media companies to comply with the law is not as controversial as it appears to US, libertarians leaning views.

Comparison of an autocracy censoring things that are embarrassing to them to censorship of illegal content is completely wrong, in my view.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Imagine a world where FB/Reddit/Twitter, as a group, said no to Trump and banned his campaign from their platforms. It's possible we'd be looking at a Hillary presidency in such a world.

This is less about "how to stop radicalization" so much as "who's going to take responsibility for it?" In America, apparently, it's nobody, except perhaps the general public (the bits that are willing to speak out, the bits that aren't nationalists themselves, the bits that are judicially and legislatively hamstrung); in China, the PRC assumes/seizes responsibility. You can disagree with their methods, sure, and I do too, as someone who makes occasional trips to visit family, but at least they're flexing their authority, contrast that with our lame duck government.
KarneeKarnay said:
I mean China has played a good game, but it's done it by restricting all competition to nothing.
Click to expand...

With Google operating in China once again, I daresay the search engine/communication market in China is a lot more competitive than it is in the West, where Google holds an effective monopoly. I think certain EU countries have also tried to prop up local businesses against Google to little avail. Just in terms of userbase, Baidu is one of the few credible competitors left for Google, and only because it has PRC's backing.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Haly said:
Imagine a world where FB/Reddit/Twitter, as a group, said no to Trump and banned his campaign from their platforms. It's possible we'd be looking at a Hillary presidency in such a world.

This is less about "how to stop radicalization" so much as "who's going to take responsibility for it?" In America, apparently, it's nobody, except perhaps the general public (the bits that are willing to speak out, the bits that aren't nationalists themselves, the bits that are judicially and legislatively hamstrung); in China, the PRC assumes/seizes responsibility. You can disagree with their methods, sure, and I do too, as someone who makes occasional trips to visit family, but at least they're flexing their authority, contrasting our lame duck government.
Click to expand...

So you want government to flex its authority?

Wait... isn't that why we don't like Trump's authoritarian sentiments?
 
F

Firemind

Member
Oberon said:
This is a very shortsighted comment. It's the least bad thing we got. Of course it can always get improved, and if I had to choose between faulty democracy and communists regime I know which one to choose.
Click to expand...
China isn't really a regime. From what I hear, the Chinese middle class prefers stability and therefore accept the government's regulation of the Internet.
 
U

Usobuko

Banned
Oberon said:
This is a very shortsighted comment. It's the least bad thing we got. Of course it can always get improved, and if I had to choose between faulty democracy and communists regime I know which one to choose.
Click to expand...

Tbh, I'm not sure about you but I would have choose democracy no question asked if I am in the privileged group.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
BocoDragon said:
So you want government to flex its authority?

Wait... isn't that why we don't like Trump's authoritarian sentiments?
Click to expand...

I want someone to flex their authority. FB isn't. Twitter isn't. Reddit isn't. Various internet hosts... aren't, until they get their arms bent by advertisers. When Google flexed theirs, they left up all the hate speech videos on youtube while demonitizing coming out vids, or vids with the rainbow LGBT flag. The government certainly isn't, so in lieu of political masters we have corporate ones, the ones that aren't involved in technology at least.

I mean it's just a matter of time before either Amazon or Google is the one who decides what you can and cannot see on the internet.
 
G

googleplex

Member
Haly said:
I don't think the majority voted for the rise of right wing nationalism.

I'm not sure which I prefer though. A state approved internet or constantly being under the threat of extremism. I suppose the solution is some kind of middle ground.
Click to expand...

Tons of people did! Tons more didn't bother to give a shit.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Haly said:
I want someone to flex their authority. FB isn't. Twitter isn't. Reddit isn't. Various internet hosts... aren't, until they get their arms bent by advertisers. When Google flexed theirs, they left up all the hate speech videos on youtube while demonitizing coming out vids, or vids with the rainbow flag. The government certainly isn't, so in lieu of political masters we have corporate ones, the ones that aren't involved in technology at least.

I mean it's just a matter of time before either Amazon or Google is the one who decides what you can and cannot see on the internet.
Click to expand...

I would hope these come about by the will of the people's opinion, not by government means. And I think Twitter/FB are slowly bending to this will.

I'll take it over China-style authoritarianism.... or even UK-style overreaches of regulation, tbh.

Firemind said:
China isn't really a regime.
Click to expand...

Uh huh.

They could have many alternatives to communism and indeed there was a civil war over what type of government they would have. So yes the PRC is a regime.

Firemind said:
From what I hear, the Chinese middle class prefers stability and therefore accept the government's regulation of the Internet.
Click to expand...

What choice do they have? And just like in many countries the government placates the middle/upper classes ("we'll let you have cellphones and consumer goods!") and so of course they grow accepting of it.

There is a tradition of collectivism in the classical Chinese mindset so I'll give you a tiny bit of a point.
 
T

TheWraith

Member
Firemind said:
China isn't really a regime. From what I hear, the Chinese middle class prefers stability and therefore accept the government's regulation of the Internet.
Click to expand...

That because if they would say otherwise they can be jailed/tortured from one day to the next. the CCP IS a textbook case of a dictatorial regime, I don't know in what dimension or planet you live.
 
C

Candescence

Member
This is a bit of an overreaction. Yes, recent moves by some western governments have problems, but we're not anywhere near levels of censoring stuff that governments don't like.

Also... China not being a fascist regime? News to me. Sure, the genocide of an entire harmless spiritual sect without any kind of rule of law and using murdered political prisoners for an illegal organ trade totally isn't an obvious sign of a fascist regime...

KarneeKarnay said:
Has it though?


I mean China has played a good game, but it's done it by restricting all competition to nothing.

I always laugh when I hear stories like this.

"China XXX has more than a billion users."

Well yeah it will. It's the only thing they can use. The problem is that the market outside of China is pretty healthy. Competition has given way to innovation.
Click to expand...

Pretty much this. "Competition" in China is basically a big game of "who can cosy up to the Chinese Communist Party the most". The CCP is also incredibly protectionist, so foreign companies are DoA in China unless they suck the government's dick really hard. China's economy is built on crony capitalism, the only reason it hasn't had a major collapse ala Yeltsin-era Russia is yet because the CCP is doing everything in its power (aka anything it wants) to prevent such a collapse.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
googleplex said:
Tons of people did! Tons more didn't bother to give a shit.
Click to expand...

I meant on the internet. In recent months I've come to the realization that it's not the silent majority on the internet that dictates its overall direction, but the vocal minority, and I would posit the Rick and Morty fandom as evidence. The Weinstein situation also shows how a few solitary voices can be amplified by the internet as well, despite the silent majority preferring to look the other way when it comes to sexual harassment.

The point is, the internet amplifies loud voices much more than it does silent, passive ones, so it's no really a direct democracy in the literal sense. I'm not sure there's a word for it.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Haly said:
I meant on the internet. In recent months I've come to the realization that it's not the silent majority on the internet that dictates its overall direction, but the vocal minority, and I would posit the Rick and Morty fandom as evidence.
Click to expand...

Maybe the overall point stands.... But I honestly I don't see how Rick and Morty fandom being toxic is anything more than a meme and one shitty op-ed. ;)
 
U

Usobuko

Banned
TheWraith said:
That because if they would say otherwise they can be jailed/tortured from one day to the next. the CCP IS a textbook case of a dictatorial regime, I don't know in what dimension or planet you live.
Click to expand...

The Chinese do not view the government like a third party where people in the West typically feel.

They viewed the government more like a mentor, a sort of senior relative guiding the country.

It's not exactly a brainwashed thing like north korea, it's more of a nationalism thing and the economic growth lifting millions off property and providing comfort compare to the precious era.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
BocoDragon said:
Maybe the overall point stands.... But I honestly I don't see how Rick and Morty fandom being toxic is anything more than a meme and one shitty op-ed. ;)
Click to expand...

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/15/arts/music/the-rise-of-the-internet-fan-bully.html

Rick and Morty fans harassment of female writers in the early episodes -> Small vocal group ruining the reputation and perception of a show despite most R&M fans probably being not crazy (not sure though) -> Minority dictates context rather than majority

Replace R&M with SU if you want, or, MLP, or whatever meme cartoon people are crazy over. Oh, Undertale was another one. Some fan artist was offered a cookie with a razor blade inside it at a convention. For such an innocent game, people can be really leery about its rep due to publicized incidents like the above.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Usobuko said:
The Chinese do not view the government like a third party where people in the West typically feel.

They viewed the government more like a mentor, a sort of senior relative guiding the country.

It's not exactly a brainwashed thing like north korea, it's more of a nationalism thing and the economic growth lifting millions off property and providing comfort compare to the precious era.
Click to expand...
I mean tell that to the Kuomintang.

Sounds like pure propaganda. "It's not a party, it's a consenting body of the people".

It's literally called the Communist Party in China.... implying that there are potentially many other parties who are not in control.

One group seized power through violence..... and now we can all pretend like it's the Chinese people's natural consenting will that they hold the office.
 
N

Not

Banned
Yes, everything sucks, but keep fighting. The FCC won't be controlled by evil rich people and fascists forever if white people get their heads out of their asses and go elect a non-Trump President

Things are really bad, but they can still get better

Fallout-NL said:
What a load of horseshit.

You don't fight radicalisation, hate, harassment, racism and discrimination by censoring it after it has already taken root through the implementation of a full on police state. You combat it by improving education and fighting income inequality.
Click to expand...

Yeah
 
K

kyser73

Member
Nah, something like an encrypted version of ZeroNet, combined with a quicker blockchain for transactions, will emerge to frustrate governments by both securing and fully decentralising the net.
 
J

JettDash

Junior Member
Not said:
Yes, everything sucks, but keep fighting. The FCC won't be controlled by evil rich people and fascists forever if white people get their heads out of their asses and go elect a non-Trump President

Things are really bad, but they can still get better
Click to expand...

Um, the FCC isn't actually censoring the internet.

I mean most people here are anti Trump and we can say whatever we want about what an evil sack of human trash that would best serve humanity by dying he is.
 
U

Usobuko

Banned
BocoDragon said:
I mean tell that to the Kuomintang.

Sounds like pure propaganda. "It's not a party, it's a consenting body of the people".

It's literally called the Communist Party in China.... implying that there are potentially many other parties who are not in control.
Click to expand...

It is but I highly doubt there are many people there wishing for a democratic style of governance at this junction.

I'm from Singapore and I know first hand how economic growth and wealth influence people to vote that one party in power for years, censorship and regulations heavy whatsnot. And we don't even have the kind of nationalistic pride here.
 
S

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
Firemind said:
Which is not necessarily a bad thing is my point. Do they really miss FB when they have their own social platforms?
Click to expand...
No, it's not a good thing when a government does everything it can to keep its citizens ignorant and powerless. A government controlled social platform isn't a replacement for one that allows for the free and open exchange of ideas.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
BocoDragon said:
Maybe it's a slightly different point than the main direction of this thread... but I do see your point about how the worst of a group can come to define it.
Click to expand...

Walking it back a bit, I don't think the solution to combating an Orwellian nightmare is to implement an Orwellian nightmare but surely people see the pitfalls of unlimited "free speech" by now, right? The concept contains the seeds of its own undoing, because authoritarians will use free speech as a shield to mask their metastasis until grow enough to seize power, and then replace free speech with the speech of their own devising (fake news, Pizzagate, Benghazi, etc) anyway. Like, all you did was just add a bunch of intervening steps in between minimal and full totalitarianism. What we need is a system that safeguards itself against radicalization, and China, for all its faults, has the right idea in this area.
Dynamite Shikoku said:
Russia won the trolling though
Click to expand...

This too. Are we interested in the the principle of free speech or the spirit of free speech? Is Facebook really free and open if it becomes a vehicle for foreign-backed propaganda? Is the inoculation against foreign-meddling/hate-filled broadcasting impugning free speech?
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Usobuko said:
It is but I highly doubt there are many people there wishing for a democratic style of governance at this junction.

I'm from Singapore and I know first hand how economic growth and wealth influence people to vote that one party in power for years, censorship and regulations heavy whatsnot. And we don't even have the kind of nationalistic pride here.
Click to expand...

Yeah if that's the point I see what you mean. They're not being held at gunpoint to accept a one-party authoritarian mixed economy.... they by and large consent to it now, as much as we all consent to our own regimes.

They don't need to hold the gun up when the example of 1989 shows how much more smoothly life will be when you cozy up to the state.
 
A

Alienfan

Member
Haly said:
I want someone to flex their authority. FB isn't. Twitter isn't. Reddit isn't. Various internet hosts... aren't, until they get their arms bent by advertisers. When Google flexed theirs, they left up all the hate speech videos on youtube while demonitizing coming out vids, or vids with the rainbow LGBT flag. The government certainly isn't, so in lieu of political masters we have corporate ones, the ones that aren't involved in technology at least.

I mean it's just a matter of time before either Amazon or Google is the one who decides what you can and cannot see on the internet.
Click to expand...

The internet is about the only place where the free market works exceptionally well. If Google start heading in one direction there are plenty of others that will head in another. So long as the government doesn't limit our choices, I don't think we'll have too much of an issue
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Maintenance said:
If China has the right idea then I'm fucking glad the whole world is wrong.
Click to expand...

A little xenophobic, but China is currently investing in renewable energies and reversing desertification while the US is on the verge of propping up a failing, dirty industry (coal) and stripping environmental regulations wholesale (EPA).

I know GAF likes to hate on anything and everything China but they do some positive things now and then, if not out of altruism then at least out of pragmatism.
Alienfan said:
The internet is about the only place where the free market works exceptionally well. If Google start heading in one direction there are plenty of others that will head in another.
Click to expand...

Like who, Bing? Yahoo? People already clown on Google for having all but abandoned their "do no evil" motto. Where's the people heading the other way? Not Zuckerberg and not Huffman. Not Dorsey and definitely not Bezos. Gates, maybe. Cook, ehhh.

I wouldn't call GamerGate and its fallout "working exceptionally well", not at all.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Haly said:
Walking it back a bit, I don't think the solution to combating an Orwellian nightmare is to implement an Orwellian nightmare but surely people see the pitfalls of unlimited "free speech" by now, right? The concept contains the seeds of its own undoing, because authoritarians will use free speech as a shield to mask their metastasis until grow enough to seize power, and then replace free speech with the speech of their own devising (fake news, Pizzagate, Benghazi, etc) anyway. Like, all you did was just add a bunch of intervening steps in between minimal and full totalitarianism. What we need is a system that safeguards itself against radicalization, and China, for all its faults, has the right idea in this area.
Click to expand...

I mean you're talking to a free speech absolutist here... so I don't really agree. I think "the solution to bad speech is more free speech", as the quote goes.

I don't see the zeitgeist of discussion as being so dire that we need to cut back on speech protections at the government level. Rather I see that the conversation hasn't played out to its conclusion.

If social media allows hate speech and propaganda, then I think we all need to get so sufficiently outraged and vocal that social media does something about it.... and I believe that is exactly what is happening. For all the hand-wringing over FB or twitter's accountability... they keep doing more to curb problems of hate/abuse/propaganda, and that will only continue to increase if we keep up the pressure.

We don't need to turn to the heavy hand of government to move into that better world. Mainly because the heavy hand of government will lead to other unforeseen ills like a lack of individual or collective freedom.
 
T

TheWraith

Member
Usobuko said:
The Chinese do not view the government like a third party where people in the West typically feel.

They viewed the government more like a mentor, a sort of senior relative guiding the country.

It's not exactly a brainwashed thing like north korea, it's more of a nationalism thing and the economic growth lifting millions off property and providing comfort compare to the precious era.
Click to expand...

Come on now you're spewing pure propaganda. Please ask Liu Xiaobo, Students of Tien An Men or Ai Weiwei how that "mentor" has been treating them. For that matter ask any of the hundreds of human rights lawyer that were arrested without warrants, warning or fair trials how this "mentor" has been guiding them. Or ask the young assistant to one of these lawyers what this mentor did while she was raped in a jailcell....

Please ask the people of Hong Kong how China has been treating them while their liberal society and rule of law goes in the crapper.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
BocoDragon said:
I don't see the zeitgeist of discussion as being so dire that we need to cut back on speech protections at the government level. Rather I see that the conversation hasn't played out to its conclusion.
Click to expand...

Trump is in office. I mean, we're lucky, really fortunate, that Trump is too incompetent to get things done. Imagine a competent Trump, with a united GOP.

To address your point directly, I don't think the conversation is capable of "finishing" so long as people can interrupt it like this, and reverse course. Hypothetically, there may be a time in the indefinite future where the conversation is finished but practically speaking it looks like it never will unless we luck out for a couple of decades in a row.
TheWraith said:
Come on now you're spewing pure propaganda. Please ask Liu Xiaobo, Students of Tien An Men or Ai Weiwei how that "mentor" has been treating them. For that matter ask any of the hundreds of human rights lawyer that were arrested without warrants, warning or fair trials how this "mentor" has been guiding them. Or ask the young assistant to one of these lawyers what this mentor did while she was raped in a jailcell....
Click to expand...

My grandfather was imprisoned by the PRC for political dissidence, and yet my views on the PRC is widely different from my father's. You really misunderstand, in a typical Western education kind of way, the attitude Chinese nationals have regarding the role of governance in their life.

Ironically, he likes Trump, at least, he did during the election season. I've neglected to confront him about it because I don't want to deal with the drama.
 
J

JettDash

Junior Member
A question that I have no idea the answer to: How difficult is it to break the great Chinese fire wall by using VPN/proxies/TOR?
 
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