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PC Gamer: Shadow of War's loot boxes are bad because they make the game boring

Alexander DeLarge

Alexander DeLarge

Member
In a lot of online discussions I saw, people were arguing that games wouldn't be designed around these microtransactions and that it would just be a last minute implementation at the publisher's request.... But from what I've seen, it looks like it already has.
The real reason Shadow of War's loot boxes are bad: they make the game boring

It's not that they cost money, it's that they give you dull orcs.

The growing ubiquity of loot boxes continues to stoke outrage. And while concern over microtransactions is warranted, I think the weeks of anger we saw directed at Middle-earth: Shadow of War was focused on the wrong thing.

Yes, it's uncool that loot boxes have oozed into singleplayer games, and yet another of the major games of 2017. That sucks. As Wes argued in our staff discussion last week, loot boxes threaten to homogenize the reward systems of dissimilar games into a samey, randomized mush.

The real reason these loot boxes are repulsive is that they allow people to bypass the most fun part of Middle-earth: Shadow of War: cultivating rivalries.
Click to expand...

Full article: http://www.pcgamer.com/the-real-reason-shadow-of-wars-loot-boxes-are-bad-they-make-the-game-boring/

So not only are these gambling boxes scummy as hell in a $60 purchase (still makes me cringe that some of the top free2play games have better business models than this), they ruined the best part of Shadow of Mordor. Explains why I was so bored with it.
 
M

Mezoly

Member
Alexander DeLarge said:
In a lot of online discussions I saw, people were arguing that games wouldn't be designed around these microtransactions and that it would just be a last minute implementation at the publisher's request.... But from what I've seen, it looks like it already has.


Full article: http://www.pcgamer.com/the-real-reason-shadow-of-wars-loot-boxes-are-bad-they-make-the-game-boring/

So not only are these gambling boxes scummy as hell in a $60 purchase (still makes me cringe that some of the top free2play games have better business models than this), they ruined the best part of Shadow of Mordor. Explains why I was so bored with it.
Click to expand...
So you are bored with it because you have bought Microtransactions to let you skip the best part of the game? if so, why did you do that?
 
C

Conkerkid11

Member
I just think loot in the game is handled poorly in general. There's no definitive level cap as far as I can tell, so any gear you get only matters in that it's as close to your level as possible, and maybe of a high rarity. There's no real attributes to gear that matter. And they throw these purple sets at you with set bonuses and all that, but they don't matter, because they're not going to be the same level as you for all that long. So now I've got a bunch of level 11 purple items in my inventory that absolutely do not matter.

Loot feels like it exists in this game purely to justify the existence of loot boxes. You never at any point feel like your stats actually do anything to contribute to your performance.

I've said it several times and I'll say it again, but loot should exist in the way that games like Borderlands, Diablo, or Path of Exile handle loot. Individual items should feel unique and your overall set of gear should feel different than other sets of gear. Shadow of War handles loot worse than I've seen any game handle loot in a long time.

Alexander DeLarge said:
Explains why I was so bored with it.
Click to expand...
I'm bored with it because I think the difficulty is poorly handled in that enemies adapting to attacks is dumb, as are infinitely respawning enemies, and the FOV we can't change, which prevents me from seeing all the enemies attacking me at once.

I uninstalled the game just awhile ago because I was tired of the gameplay loop of Shadow Wars. It's just not fun to play.
 
F

Familienoberhauptvogel

Banned
Conkerkid11 said:
I just think loot in the game is handled poorly in general. There's no definitive level cap as far as I can tell, so any gear you get only matters in that it's as close to your level as possible, and maybe of a high rarity. There's no real attributes to gear that matter. And they throw these purple sets at you with set bonuses and all that, but they don't matter, because they're not going to be the same level as you for all that long. So now I've got a bunch of level 11 purple items in my inventory that absolutely do not matter.

Loot feels like it exists in this game purely to justify the existence of loot boxes. You never at any point feel like your stats actually do anything to contribute to your performance.

I've said it several times and I'll say it again, but loot should exist in the way that games like Borderlands, Diablo, or Path of Exile handle loot. Individual items should feel unique and your overall set of gear should feel different than other sets of gear. Shadow of War handles loot worse than I've seen any game handle loot in a long time.
Click to expand...
The loot basically covers level scaling, the only actually impactful stats are the perks and set boni you get from upgrading them.
 
N

nynt9

Member
Alexander DeLarge said:
Explains why I was so bored with it.
Click to expand...

Oh so you bought the game? Seemed like you were virulently against the idea. I guess you're part of the problem you describe?

Alexander DeLarge said:
People are quick to go against their interests when something shiny is dangled in front of them. More at 11.

Obligatory (in this case it was the lack of mod tools and dedicated servers)

[image of MW2 boycott]

Give these greedy cunts an inch, they'll take several miles until people wake up and realize "wow, this is really shit now".
Click to expand...

Alexander DeLarge said:
The way these kinds of business practices use human psychology to prey on people is really scummy. Also, even cosmetics are dangerous because I'd imagine a lot of kids would gladly pull out their mother's credit card to look the "coolest". I don't look forward to being a parent to a child that plays games in today's industry. These things should not be the norm and unless it's a free2play game, there's no excuse to having these things in a game. Especially single player ones. It's funny how many of the top free2play games have fairer business models than $60 purchases.
Click to expand...

Alexander DeLarge said:
lmao people really will defend anything
feel free to continue minimizing the horrible precedent this sets for the industry just because you guys want your "gotcha moment" since it sold well.
Click to expand...


That being said, I don't think the loot boxes have anything to do with the game's boringness. The formula is the same as the first. They don't really interact with the game's reward system IMO. If you find the combat and orc encounters fun, that's basically the gist of the game. If not, no loot box will change that.
 
Alexander DeLarge

Alexander DeLarge

Member
Mezoly said:
So you are bored with it because you have bought Microtransactions to let you skip the best part of the game? if so, why did you do that?
Click to expand...

I got bored because it seemed like anyone that would flee or become a rival after killing Talion would disappear for significantly longer periods than they did in Shadow of Mordor to the point where it'd be way more appealing to just pay for some decent orcs. Also since the level progression is tied to these microtransactions (end game is when they're really fun), it made the interesting rivalries happen many hours later into the game than it happened in Shadow of Mordor previously.

I don't buy the "we balanced the game without these microtransactions in mind" nonsense for a second. Also aren't some of the Orc personalities locked behind these crates?

nynt9 said:
Oh so you bought the game? Seemed like you were virulently against the idea. I guess you're part of the problem you describe?
Click to expand...

I didn't pay a cent. I would've bought it day one but the game had far too much baggage prior to release to the point where it alienated me completely. I even had the collector's edition pre-ordered since I'm a huge Tolkien fan.
 
D

Dipper145

Member
Having beaten the game to the end, the lootboxes are completely unneeded.

In the end chapter of the game, where criticism is fair in the grind and length of it, the lootboxes still offer no benefit since so many orcs are thrown at you to capture or kill during those missions that you have tons of orcs and loot to use. I actually think they should have prevented the recruiting of enemy orcs during the last acts castle stuff. Preventing the recruiting of the enemy orcs during the final chapter when these missions are played would create a more interesting game. Combining this with shortening overall the number of "stages" in the last chapter of the game would make experiencing the nemesis system a much more integral part of the game. Preventing their recruitment would also make the lootboxes actually valuable and useful, and would make a lot more sense as a way to speed up play time for people who wish to pay for it. (People would be more justified in being upset about the loot boxes in this case though, because they would actually have some importance and relevance)

I think the loot boxes here are bad because they are almost completely pointless throughout a play through of the game.

I think the game definitely deserves criticism in it's changes to world exploration and how recruitable orcs are discovered when compared to the first game. But it's possible I'm just misremembering how a lot of that worked in the first game, so I'm not sure. But I know that the world design didn't feel as compact as this one.
 
K

Keinning

Member
So if i don't pay for MTs i'm going to have more fun with the game? So they're nowhere near as important as stated beforehand, in fact, they're detrimental to it if you spend more money than you need?

Time to get the pitchfork i guess, this cannot stand
 
M

MUnited83

For you.
Alexander DeLarge said:
I got bored because it seemed like anyone that would flee or become a rival after killing Talion would disappear for significantly longer periods than they did in Shadow of Mordor to the point where it'd be way more appealing to just pay for some decent orcs. Also since the level progression is tied to these microtransactions (end game is when they're really fun), it made the interesting rivalries happen many hours later into the game than it happened in Shadow of Mordor previously.

I don't buy the "we balanced the game without these microtransactions in mind" nonsense for a second. Also aren't some of the Orc personalities locked behind these crates?



I didn't pay a cent. I would've bought it day one but the game had far too much baggage prior to release to the point where it alienated me completely. I even had the collector's edition pre-ordered since I'm a huge Tolkien fan.
Click to expand...
? I have had more encounters with some orcs in a couple of hours than the entirety of Shadow of Mordor. Shadow of War makes them easy as all fuck to find.
No, no Orc personalities are locked behind crates.

And yes, the game is absolutely balanced without the microtransactions in mind. Have you actually played the last chapter? The paid lootboxes are fucking pointless and don't help you that much, and it's ridiculously easy to level up your orcs and finish it.

I mean you didn't even read the article you posted: it literally says that all the microtransactions do is actually skip the actual fun part of the game. It literally goes against your point.
 
LordRaptor

LordRaptor

Member
nynt9 said:
Oh so you bought the game?
Click to expand...

Alexander DeLarge said:
I got bored ...many hours later into the game


I didn't pay a cent. I would've bought it day one but the game had far too much baggage
Click to expand...

q0UVH3q.gif
 
N

nynt9

Member
Keinning said:
So if i don't pay for MTs i'm going to have more fun with the game? So they're nowhere near as important as stated beforehand, in fact, they're detrimental to it if you spend more money than you need?

Time to get the pitchfork i guess, this cannot stand
Click to expand...

BernardoOne said:
? I have had more encounters with some orcs in a couple of hours than the entirety of Shadow of Mordor. Shadow of War makes them easy as all fuck to find.
No, no Orc personalities are locked behind crates.
Click to expand...

smells like...

tenor.gif


Look, I get that there are legitimate things to criticize about the game. But people are way too eager to pick a fight and blame random things about the game that aren't even true. This isn't how you tell publishers what you want. At least don't make arguments that resort to flat out lying to shit on the game, criticize things that exist.
 
G

Gaogaogao

Member
last I heard this problem only manifests in the end game where your options are

-grind for legendary orcs
-buy legendary orcs with money

to get the real ending (weather you care about that is another issue)
 
L

Leafhopper

Banned
Isn't that the point of giving them money.

So you don't have to try?

I already think the lootboxes are shit and a problem but what even is this lol.
 
R

RichiRamjag

Member
BernardoOne said:
? I have had more encounters with some orcs in a couple of hours than the entirety of Shadow of Mordor. Shadow of War makes them easy as all fuck to find.
No, no Orc personalities are locked behind crates.

And yes, the game is absolutely balanced without the microtransactions in mind. Have you actually played the last chapter? The paid lootboxes are fucking pointless and don't help you that much, and it's ridiculously easy to level up your orcs and finish it.

I mean you didn't even read the article you posted: it literally says that all the microtransactions do is actually skip the actual fun part of the game. It literally goes against your point.
Click to expand...

Was coming to point this exact thing out.

Not sure what is going on, but people are losing their minds when it comes to the lootboxes in this game. I don’t think the OP understands the article he posted.

Mezoly said:
Op posts got me confused. He either didn't read the article or didn't play the game.



And the article says the first option is the fun part of the game! And skipping using MT makes it boring.
Click to expand...

Pretty much. It’s basically an article saying the worst part of lootboxes is that you’d miss out on the nemesis system and rivalries and such.
 
N

Neoweee

Member
Alexander DeLarge said:
In a lot of online discussions I saw, people were arguing that games wouldn't be designed around these microtransactions and that it would just be a last minute implementation at the publisher's request.... But from what I've seen, it looks like it already has.


Full article: http://www.pcgamer.com/the-real-reason-shadow-of-wars-loot-boxes-are-bad-they-make-the-game-boring/

So not only are these gambling boxes scummy as hell in a $60 purchase (still makes me cringe that some of the top free2play games have better business models than this), they ruined the best part of Shadow of Mordor. Explains why I was so bored with it.
Click to expand...

Most JRPGs also have this kind of garbage in DLC areas that give a ton of money or a ton of experience. Fire Emblem Fates, SMT4A, and Etrian Odyssey 5 all have cheat turbo-grind DLC for money. They are hard games trivialized by "Hey, buy your way to victory!" DLC that appears to be the norm these days.
 
M

Mezoly

Member
Op posts got me confused. He either didn't read the article or didn't play the game.

Gaogaogao said:
last I heard this problem only manifests in the end game where your options are

-grind for legendary orcs
-buy legendary orcs with money
Click to expand...

And the article says the first option is the fun part of the game! And skipping using MT makes it boring.
 
G

Gaogaogao

Member
Mezoly said:
Op posts got me confused. He either didn't read the article or didn't play the game.



And the article says the first option is the fun part of the game! And skipping using MT makes it boring.
Click to expand...

do they say anything about the end game?
the true ending really wants you to grind, which is the kind of thing that pushes a person toward lootboxes.
 
R

RichiRamjag

Member
Gaogaogao said:
do they say anything about the end game?
the true ending really wants you to grind, which is the kind of thing that pushes a person toward lootboxes.
Click to expand...

Read the article. It isn’t even a complaint about being pushed to lootboxes. It basically says you’d be missing out on an awesome part of the game (building rivalries, leveling orcs) if you were to buy them.
 
K

Keinning

Member
shira said:
It appears he got bored with his thread too
Click to expand...

Probably on r/fucklootboxes complaining about all the Gaf corporate defenders praising everything the big companies do

I for one welcome all the MTs that will make the game boring and cut features instead of adding them. Maybe this will finally get people to stop buying them.
 
B

Bronetta

Ask me about the moon landing or the temperature at which jet fuel burns. You may be surprised at what you learn.
Is OP admitting to piracy in that "I didnt pay a cent" post?


Is this what the vocal minority is like?
 
A

Arkeband

Banned
Bronetta said:
Is OP admitting to piracy in that "I didnt pay a cent" post?


Is this what the vocal minority is like?
Click to expand...

Are you saying that anti-lootbox commenters are "the vocal minority"?

Well then fuck, clearly the silent majority has spoken on all matters from Net Neutrality (sounds like a vocal minority are for that obamacare-of-the-internet, amirite?) to #MeToo.

It's real interesting how GAF has a weird subculture of corporate worship when it comes to the gaming industry, where even in this thread, they've chosen to have more fun witch hunting the OP than to actually discuss the article, going so far as to dig through post histories, which is both frowned upon and celebrated depending on who is watching.

Single player games implementing "skip" mechanics ultimately always affect base game drop rates or difficulty, even in imperceptible ways, because there is a profit motive in making these systems enticing to non-whales/dummies. It isn't as simple as:

"YOU ARE NOT PLAYING IT RIGHT!!!!"
Click to expand...
... as piping hot as that take is.
 
W

Wagram

Member
Just don't buy games with loot boxes or don't buy them until they're $20. It'll send a message if enough people do it.
 
D

Dipper145

Member
Gaogaogao said:
im aware of that.
this is what im talking about
Click to expand...

I addressed the loot boxes in the end game grind in my previous post, but essentially they are not needed there either and wind up being completely useless.

This is primarily because the end-game mission(s) throws so many orcs at you to capture during the battles you need to go through that you have tons of loot and orcs.

I think a better criticism is that the end-game is poorly designed. In that you don't really interact with the best parts of the game (nemesis system), and it does not provide any usefulness for the loot boxes.

Getting the "true ending" is a grind in the sense that it's a lot of the same mission over and over and over again.
 
S

smurfx

get some go again
throwing the orcs you capture into the pits is the fun part of this game. i don't want loot box orcs. i think i only used one so far and only because i just wanted to test it out.
 
K

Keinning

Member
Arkeband said:
It's real interesting how GAF has a weird subculture of corporate worship when it comes to the gaming industry, where even in this thread, they've chosen to have more fun witch hunting the OP than to actually discuss the article
Click to expand...

OP should read the article and you should too. The "skipping" is pointless and affects the fun part of the game instead of taking you to it faster. It changed nothing from "base game drop rates and difficulty". It's just you paying to not have fun with the game you bought. And you're somehow outraged by it. Which is weird, because reading the article should give you the opposite reaction:

Shadow of War's loot boxes aren't bad because they monetize orcs, weapons, and armor, they're bad because they circumvent the essence of what makes the game interesting: being bullied by assholes like Mozû the Blight, befriending them, and then then losing them forever in a heroic castle siege.
Click to expand...

When you unbox an orc from a war chest and add them to your army, you haven't had to hunt, fight, and outwit that orc. You don't have a history with them, because they're instantly loyal to you. You don't have to interrogate pathetic orc worms in order to reveal their weaknesses. You don't kill them, only to have them [dramatic camera spin] cheat death and reappear. You don't even get to hear them speak—a huge part of that orc's personality, as we learned last week.
Click to expand...

But sure, it's all a fun witch hunt from corporate shills. Burn everything down!
 
B

Bronetta

Ask me about the moon landing or the temperature at which jet fuel burns. You may be surprised at what you learn.
Arkeband said:
Are you saying that anti-lootbox commenters are "the vocal minority"?

Well then fuck, clearly the silent majority has spoken on all matters from Net Neutrality (sounds like a vocal minority are for that obamacare-of-the-internet, amirite?) to #MeToo.

It's real interesting how GAF has a weird subculture of corporate worship when it comes to the gaming industry, where even in this thread, they've chosen to have more fun witch hunting the OP than to actually discuss the article, going so far as to dig through post histories, which is both frowned upon and celebrated depending on who is watching.

Single player games implementing "skip" mechanics ultimately always affect base game drop rates or difficulty, even in imperceptible ways, because there is a profit motive in making these systems enticing to non-whales/dummies. It isn't as simple as:


... as piping hot as that take is.
Click to expand...

You figured out all that from the 2 sentences I posted? No need to have a meltdown.

Relax, I'm anti-lootbox too. I just dont go around creating misleading threads while admitting to piracy.

Also, GAF isnt some anticonsumer hivemind. We're all individuals, special and unique and different in our own way :)
 
C

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Arkeband said:
Are you saying that anti-lootbox commenters are "the vocal minority"?

Well then fuck, clearly the silent majority has spoken on all matters from Net Neutrality (sounds like a vocal minority are for that obamacare-of-the-internet, amirite?) to #MeToo.

It's real interesting how GAF has a weird subculture of corporate worship when it comes to the gaming industry, where even in this thread, they've chosen to have more fun witch hunting the OP than to actually discuss the article, going so far as to dig through post histories, which is both frowned upon and celebrated depending on who is watching.

Single player games implementing "skip" mechanics ultimately always affect base game drop rates or difficulty, even in imperceptible ways, because there is a profit motive in making these systems enticing to non-whales/dummies. It isn't as simple as:.
Click to expand...
These things get added so late in the process that they rarely have an effect on the progression systems. Not jumping at every chance to moan about Shadow of War doesn't mean that people worship corporate, just an indication that people don't like OPs made in bad faith. Especially an OP that appears to have contradictory posts.
 
J

jdmonmou

Member
Plenty of people have pointed out the irony of loot boxes in Shadow of War in that their presence devalues the game’s content. I don’t know how the author of this article missed those criticisms.
 
LordRaptor

LordRaptor

Member
Arkeband said:
It's real interesting how GAF has a weird subculture of corporate worship when it comes to the gaming industry, where even in this thread, they've chosen to have more fun witch hunting the OP than to actually discuss the article
Click to expand...

LOL.

OP made a thread about an article he obviously didn't read (and you obviously didn't either) because he assumed the title of it confirmed his agenda, which is amusing on a thread backfire level all on its own.

He then - pick your poison - either:
Invented a narrative about a game he's never played to push his anti-lootbox agenda... which is pretty sad

OR

Doesn't even have the courage of his own convictions, and went off and pirated the game the second he could find a copy.... which is equally sad

either way OPs bailed on this thread and I don't expect hes coming back
 
T

truestatic

Member
Bronetta said:
Is OP admitting to piracy in that "I didnt pay a cent" post?


Is this what the vocal minority is like?
Click to expand...

I'm playing through and thoroughly enjoying Danganronpa V3 while not having paid a cent for it. But that's cuz of Steam Family Sharing, bless it. It's possible to play a game without having paid for it, and I'm going to assume that that he's not just admitting to piracy for the heck of it here.
 
E

Estoc

Member
"The worst thing about loot boxes is they are just too good at bringing you the goods."

Reads like the article was written by the Damage Control department of MoreDough.
 
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