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'Shadow of War' Brings a Key First to Lord of the Rings: A Black Character

J

JonnyDBrit

Member
UncleSporky said:
Doesn't that just make it worse, though? It took white missionaries to get them to see the error of their ways?
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There's a lot of weird subtext you can get out of the fact that every major named character of note if they have a humanoid form, even the villains, is in the presumed default state of being white and damned pretty. So in this example, not only were the people of the east aided by 'white missionaries', but they were also doing the bidding of someone whose preferred disguise was a gorgeous white guy. The world of Tolkien simply is run by white people (even if those are only their corporeal forms), and there's not much getting around that fact.
 
A

Amneziak

aka The Hound
Shaanyboi said:
I mean there's a distinct difference between an artist never even considering that they only draw white people (which is waaayyyy common), versus a writer like Tolkein who openly invites and admits comparisons between the dwarves in LOTR as representations of the Jewish people. Or the orcs being scimitar-weilding dark skinned monsters from the East, with a whole bunch of other brown people joining Sauron. I mean the story brazenly includes themes about people getting over their racist baggage, but Tolkein wasn't above using problematic representations.
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Maybe, but Watterson has never addressed this as far as I know so we can't really say what motivated him to exclude them.
 
T

The Boat

Member
luulubuu said:
Pretty much this, tribal race needs the word of a superior race to see their errors. Pretty creepy but of course, there will be some detail that will totally apologize this, I'm sure.
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Isn't that what wizards did though? They went around ME fixing shit and nudging people in the right direction. This isn't something exclusive to the Haradrim, they're doing the same to everyone else. It's literally their job description.
They are superior to pretty much everyone in ME (except Sauron and Tom Bombadil I guess?), they're freaking angels!

Also, I don't remember any physical description of the blue wizards, although it's safe to assume they'd be white in their physical form.
 
A

AlexFlame116

Member
JonnyDBrit said:
Edit:

So apparently the evil spider monster that's the daughter of an abomination that came out of literally not even God might know where somehow has the power to turn into a discount Yennefer.
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Wha-huh?! Was this ever in the other books??? Do I even want to see it?
Poppy said:
uh, excuse me?

i thought we all have been on the internet long enough to know this
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Something tells me that I shouldn't ask for an example. Just for my innocence in this new discovery.
 
A

Aselith

Member
Amneziak said:
Do the people here condemning Tolkein also consider Bill Watterson a racist? Calvin and Hobbes is all-white. Even whiter than Lord of the Rings. No black people or any other non-whites appear at all throughout the entire run.
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Before we go down this path, can we acknowledge whether "no black people" is different than "some black people but I made them all evil invaders"?

What do you think?
 
D

dragonchild

Banned
Tiamatsword22 said:
And was against apartheid according to the Tolkien Gateway page that was linked.
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Indeed:
If we consider what Merton College and what the Oxford School of English owes to the Antipodes, to the Southern Hemisphere, especially to scholars born in Australia and New Zealand, it may well be felt that it is only just that one of them should now ascend an Oxford chair of English. Indeed, it may be thought that justice has been delayed since 1925. There are of course other lands under the Southern Cross. I was born in one; though I do not claim to be the most learned of those who have come hither from the far end of the Dark Continent. But I have the hatred of apartheid in my bones; and most of all, I detest the segregation or separation of Language and Literature. I do not care which of them you think White.
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-J.R.R. Tolkien, "Valedictory Address to the University of Oxford," June 5, 1959, reprinted in Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Monsters and the Critics, London: Harper Collins (2006), p. 238. ISBN 026110263X

That's as close as anyone in 1959 dare got to openly suggesting that it's high time they promote a black person to an Oxford Chair. . . in a speech in which he refers to Africa as "the Dark Continent". Ladies and gents, that's Tolkien for you, in a nutshell.
 
J

JonnyDBrit

Member
AlexFlame116 said:
Wha-huh?! Was this ever in the other books??? Do I even want to see it?
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Google 'shelob reveal trailer' if you're curious. Otherwise, no, not in the books. Unless you're talking about the 'daughter of an abomination that came out of literally not even God might know where' part, in which case it's covered in the Silmarillion by proxy. Said abomination is Ungoliant, mother of spiders, who basically almost consumed the world and even Morgoth - Sauron's boss - almost died to her.
 
S

Shaanyboi

Banned
Amneziak said:
Maybe, but Watterson has never addressed this as far as I know so we can't really say what motivated him to exclude them.
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Perfectly fair, but one is openly part of the conversation versus this being something we can only shakily infer from Watterson's silence on the issue.
 
J

JonnyDBrit

Member
Nightwing123 said:
Awesome <3 I hope he isn't the only POC in this game. Diversity in games are always welcomed in my book.
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That's... actually a point, especially with the game clearly having stages set outside of Mordor. If we could get one set in Southern Gondor, maybe head as far south as Umbar, that would raise the odds of appearances considerably.
 
I

IggyChooChoo

Member
Shaanyboi said:
Perfectly fair, but one is openly part of the conversation versus this being something we can only shakily infer from Watterson's silence on the issue.
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If Bill Watterson described black people as looking like "half orcs," I would have a serious problem with Bill Watterson.
 
W

Windam

Scaley member
UncleSporky said:
Doesn't that just make it worse, though? It took white missionaries to get them to see the error of their ways?
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Their appearances were never explained/detailed. It could well be that the Valar chose to make them appear as Haradrim men, considering they operated and dwelt among them, and that their mission was one of secrecy. But yes, I do see where you are coming from in the event that they did have the appearances of the other Istari.

JonnyDBrit said:
It's stuff like this that makes it hard to parse (though for me, hopeful) on what his view of such matters would be. He was willing enough to see, "Oh um, that's probably a bit racist, I should fix that a little." But not enough to really go in-depth on what actual cultures and civilisations might exist beyond the map we usually get to see, and show why they weren't inherently tied to any dark lord.
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It's a shame Tolkien was never content enough with his work as to have a definitive and complete view on what everything in Arda (including the countries and the different peoples that existed beyond the borders of Mordor) was like, and that he didn't have the time to finish fleshing it out. It'll be a sad time when Christopher Tolkien passes, since he's been so instrumental in introducing his father's expanded work.
 
S

Shaanyboi

Banned
JusDoIt said:
Based on the racialist subtext of his work and the fact that he lived in a time when racism was the status quo. It's an assumption, but a pretty safe one.
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Except outside of his obviously problematic racial depictions in his books, I don't find any record of him expressing any actual hatred towards other ethnicities, and his own statements suggest his disgust at racial intolerance.
 
I

IggyChooChoo

Member
Shaanyboi said:
Except outside of his obviously problematic racial depictions in his books, I don't find any record of him expressing any actual hatred towards other ethnicities, and his own statements suggest his disgust at racial intolerance.
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You don't need expressions of hatred if you have clear disgust. The man said black people look like half orcs. This isn't complicated. We don't need to read his mind here.
 
Z

zeemumu

Member
I thought this was known sometime ago. I feel like we had a thread and a bunch of people lost their minds over the idea of the existence of black people in middle earth and that it would somehow break the canon.
 
S

Shaanyboi

Banned
JusDoIt said:
I'm well aware that he opposed Hitler during WWII and spoke out against apartheid. I just said he was likely a racist, not that he was a monster.
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It's quite the leap to go from him probably using some politically incorrect shorthands to saying he 'hated Asians and Latinos'
 
J

Jocund

Member
Shaanyboi said:
It's quite the leap to go from him probably using some politically incorrect shorthands to saying he 'hated Asians and Latinos'
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You're losing me here

I don't think it's a particularly fruitful endeavor to speculate Tolkien's status of being a racist or not (though I kinda think he was) but the use of "politically incorrect shorthands" is fucking racism
 
S

Shaanyboi

Banned
JusDoIt said:
"Politically incorrect shorthands" sure does make the racism sound a lot more family friendly.
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Literally nobody here is denying problematic racial readings of Tolkein's work. But there's a helluva difference between suggesting he hated other ethnicities versus clung to shitty stereotypes when depicting them in his book that is straight up about pushing aside racial hatred.
 
I

IggyChooChoo

Member
Dmax3901 said:
Where are you getting that from? Not saying you're wrong, genuinely curious.
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Return of the King:

"There they had been mustered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of their Captain. He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues."
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Half-trolls, not half-orcs. I'm not saying Tolkien isn't a genius, or that I can't enjoy his books. But you don't have to be a Tolkien scholar to know what that is. It leaves a pretty bad taste in my mouth. I'm not the only one, either. Here's a quote about that specific passage from the novel The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Díaz:

He read The Lord of the Rings for what I'm estimating the millionth time, one of his greatest loves and greatest comforts since he'd first discovered it, back when he was nine and lost and lonely and his favorite librarian had said, Here, try this, and with one suggestion changed his life. Got through almost the whole trilogy, but then the line "and out of Far Harad black men like halftrolls" and he had to stop, his head and heart hurting too much.
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S

Shaanyboi

Banned
Jocund said:
You're losing me here

I don't think it's a particularly fruitful endeavor to speculate the status of Tolkien being a racist or not (though I kinda think he was) but the use of "politically incorrect shorthands" is fucking racism
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*points to previous post where I literally call his attitudes as being racist*

What's being debated isn't the existence of shitty racial subtext. That shit is brazenly apparent and at no point have I claimed otherwise.
 
I

IggyChooChoo

Member
Shaanyboi said:
Literally nobody here is denying problematic racial readings of Tolkein's work. But there's a helluva difference between suggesting he hated other ethnicities versus clung to shitty stereotypes when depicting them in his book that is straight up about pushing aside racial hatred.
Click to expand...

Your private definition of racism is absurdly limited. I'm arguing Tolkien is a racist because he sees black features as animalistic, frightening, and disgusting -- or in his words, "like half-trolls." Because racism is about visceral prejudice, which is what that quote shows.
 
F

Fuchsdh

Member
Bizzquik said:
LoL. ...Awkward...

You know what, though? That 'race' background is actually a pretty great jumping-off point for a series that's already ret-conning so much of the series' lore.
Gimme a conflicted black hero from a splinter group that isn't sure why their leaders have long followed Sauron in the first place. That'd actually be much more interesting than typical fantasy fluff - because he'd basically be fighting everyone: Sauron, his own people, and the prejudice of the people he's trying to help. Wow, that'd be neat. (And people wondered if Boromir could be trusted near the ring....)
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Yep. If there's wiggle room in the canon, seems like no problem doing something like this. The Shadow of series has already done some cruddy questionable stuff with the lore, so I don't see how someone can particularly argue for previous decisions but draw the line at adding a black guy.
 
J

Jocund

Member
Shaanyboi said:
*points to previous post where I literally call his attitudes as being racist*

What's being debated isn't the existence of shitty racial subtext. That shit is brazenly apparent and at no point have I claimed otherwise.
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And I'm not debating the existence of the shitty racial subtext. I know that you know that it exists, I'm only curious as to why you're willing to acknowledge Tolkien's tendency to erroneously racialize his fiction, but not take that extra (not really) step to call him a racist.

You call it a distinction. It's one that I find no value in.
 
D

Dmax3901

Member
IggyChooChoo said:
Return of the King:



Half-trolls, not half-orcs. I'm not saying Tolkien isn't a genius, or that I can't enjoy his books. But you don't have to be a Tolkien scholar to know what that is. It leaves a pretty bad taste in my mouth. I'm not the only one, either. Here's a quote about that specific passage from the novel The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Díaz:
Click to expand...

Yeah, gross.
 
O

OrangeGrayBlue

Member
THEBONDIGTY said:
I bet he hated Asians and latinos as well since I never seen them been told on his stories...
Give me a break
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Yeah, that's about the writing level I expect of someone who casually dismisses racism if it's part of a franchise they enjoy.


It's really not that hard to believe that a white guy born in the 19th century has some archaic views on race.
 
S

Shaanyboi

Banned
Jocund said:
And I'm not debating the existence of the shitty racial subtext. I know that you know that it exists, I'm only curious as to why you're willing to acknowledge Tolkien's tendency to erroneously racialize his fiction, but not take that extra (not really) step to call him a racist.

You call it a distinction. It's one that I find no value in.
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I have called him a racist here too. If I haven't made that clear - Tolkein was a racist.
 
S

Skilletor

Member
What's always eye opening to me is that people don't seem to realize that racism manifests in different ways. Just because you say you disagree with apartheid does not mean you aren't thinking fucked up shit about minorities.
 
S

Shaanyboi

Banned
Jocund said:
Okay, cool. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

It's just that this:


had thrown me off.
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By the standards of a 60+ year old British scholar in the mid 1950's, Tolkein was about the closest thing to a progressive as you could realistically hope for. Shitty racist caricatures and all. You aren't going to find much luck in divorcing his beliefs from the society around him, and the line from where it begins and he ends isn't necessarily obvious.
 
J

JusDoIt

Member
Shaanyboi said:
By the standards of a 60+ year old British scholar in the mid 1950's, Tolkein was about the closest thing to a progressive as you could realistically hope for. Shitty racist caricatures and all.
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Tolkien™. As progressive as a racist senior citizen in the 1950s can get!
 
S

Shaanyboi

Banned
JusDoIt said:
Tolkien™. As progressive as a racist senior citizen in the 1950s can get!
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*insert weak ass party whistle here*

Edit:

03-01i-maggieparty.gif
 
M

miller.skippins

Banned
Ninja Scooter said:
Because JRR Tolkien was a racist.
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calm down.....just because his fictional works doesn't include people of all races doesn't mean he is racist. Way to brand a person immediately.

I mean, as a chinese, i love the wuxia novelist, Louise Cha (Basically the Tolkien of the Chinese world)....There's very little non-chinese featured in his work and the few times they do (Mongolians, Manchurians, Russians), they were mostly antagonists...i don't think he is racist though. Older fictional writers like him (and tolkien) were just writing based on what they themselves read or based on the context of their times.

Are you going to judge your ancestors from the stone age as 'murderers' since he probably clubbed his neighbours to death to take over his territories?

It's foolish to judge someone from the past based on today's perspective.

You bet your ass someone 30 years from the future will read your comment and label you a 'triggerist' for being so easily triggered.
 
I

IggyChooChoo

Member
miller.skippins said:
calm down.....just because his fictional works doesn't include people of all races doesn't mean he is racist. Way to brand a person immediately.
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It's based on his own text that's clear as day.

It's foolish to judge someone from the past based on today's perspective.
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Nope. If he writes about feeling disgust at black faces, there's nothing wrong with calling that racist, because that's what it is. Prejudice is nothing new.
 
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