tenderbrew
Member
Great post.
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Is Nintendo the master of Fighting games without complex inputs?
- Thread starter Stopdoor
- Start date
Great post.
Yup. His Hadoken is more of a poke and Shakkunetsu version is more of an approaching tool. Some Smash players knowing that I come from traditional fighters ask me why I don't use Ryu, and I use Diddy since the banana to me feels similar to a traditional fireball game.
Ryu is great and fun in Smash but there's some loss in his design as a result of converting inputs from traditional to Smash.
Jonneh3003
Banned
Oh I didn't see it that way.
Poimandres
Member
I don't really like the way Smash plays. It's not very enjoyable to me. I've been playing fighting games since Street Fighter 2 (of many varieties!) but have never "clicked" with Smash. I think it's actually a bit more esoteric than it might seem, because it's general systems aren't as easy to follow as a standard health bar. Or maybe that's just my conditioning?
Most top players use sticks. They are designed for the stick first and foremost. Someone at Evo played GG with a guitar, let's pretend that's the norm.
Most of the moves do not resemble their motions. And just like people can memorize motions they can memorize modifier button combinations.
The three best American SFV players use pad. Ryan LV plays a very execution heavy team in marvel on pad and won evo. The reason sticks are so common among strong tournament players is because veteran players stuck with the control method they were used to from back in the day.
Capcom literally changed the DP motion from the Z input to just downforward > downforward in SF4 and that continued on. They did it to make it easier for pad players. I wouldn't blame you for not knowing that because nowhere in the game does it tell you this (I can blame Capcom on that one), but they have made a lot of efforts to make the games easier to play on pad.
The way the world works is that if something isn't broke, don't fix it. Other games since the early 90s tried alternative control schemes that all brought in problems of their own. At some point or another, people understood what we have with the basic set of motions and just went with them, and have honestly put a lot of effort over the years into making them lenient and easy to do. To top that all off, experience has shown that i's honestly not worth changing the controls that much. It doesn't magically make more people play and stick to the game, and we have proof of that. What we do have proof of is designing games to resemble other console friendly genres (read Smash as a platformer and Arms as a 3D action game) gets them into the hands of a different audience.
Basically this. A lot of old players just keep using sticks cause they used them back in the day. New players see these fancy sticks and want them because they think they are cool or have some advantage (spoiler: they generally don't and again we have proof of that).
This post is more or less the truth is what's going on with modern fighting games. They exist in the console market where an audience for this type of game is honestly not really all that present. They gotta start figuring that stuff out first because ti's the main problem. The complexity of controls really has nothing to do with it. If it actually did, games like LoL wouldn't be one of the most popular in the world.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Where did that player using a guitar place?
Because two pad players made top 8 in SFV and one of them was the clear favorite to win before the tournament even started.
Professor Beef
Banned
not too hard on his agenda now
ARMS derives its depth from aiming and moving in 3D space. Maybe we can see more variety in implementation, is what I'm saying, or that reducing 42 attacks to something less can make for good "tutorial" games that can focus on the uncluttered fundamentals fully. I'm not saying it has to match up in sheer options, just that it's a good type of design we should see more of.
Because ARMS is fun and more games like it to bridge the gap would be fun. Why is this so hard to grasp? My point here wasn't to fix Street Fighter, people are so defensive at my admitted fighting game "hangups".
『Inaba Resident』;243751338 said:
I meant diversification in the genre. Yes, you'd have less distinct "moves", whatever. Let each game do its thing. Let's see more of ARMS like games.
Yeah, some people seem to read really hard into my argument here - wasn't really trying to talk about what was "better".
Or you know, ARMS is fun and encourages learning fundamentals that might apply to all fighting games and more games like it would be cool. Have I reiterated that point enough yet?
Your point is clear. Unfortunately, people are very defensive about this topic because it always attract GAF's premium armchair developers and then you start seeing crazy shit like "fighting game devs are lazy and don't know what they're doing".
There's nothing wrong about games that try to be simple, the problem is that they're usually short lived because... they're too simple and get boring fast. See: Divekick. It's hard to strike a good balance.
Divekick seems sparse for many reasons though - it might be interesting to play a version where you don't die in one hit with the basic mechanics, it kind of makes the game very throwaway.
Professor Beef
Banned
You're missing the intent of Divekick completely
ãInaba Residentã
Banned
I'm just not seeing what ARMS has depth wise. Every time I look at a match, it just seems like footsies and that's it. It doesn't seem like it leads to anything else. I've been interested in trying the game myself so I can have a better idea but I gave up on trying to get a Switch.
A good "tutorial" fighting game would ease someone into learning all of the concepts that fighting games involve. Not just one. Pocket Fighter for example.
A good "tutorial" fighting game would ease someone into learning all of the concepts that fighting games involve. Not just one. Pocket Fighter for example.
I'm not saying the design of Divekick isn't good, I know it does what it does for a reason, I'm just saying that sort of variation might be a good jump off point to some other interesting design.
You're extremely antagonistic and it's tiring. I'm just surprised I'm enjoying a different style of gameplay and interested in whatever spin-offs could be done with that sort of "different" fighting game. Sure, some people in the thread call game devs lazy and concepts "archaic", but I'm not doing that. I got a bit tough on not liking button combos early on but it was brought on by other people being equally defensive. Give me a break here.
『Inaba Resident』;243844698 said:
And it's fun footsies. It introduces depth through ARMS types that lead to variations of footsies. Let's see more of it and variations of it.
I'm definitely interested in something like Pocket Fighter.
ãInaba Residentã
Banned
My question to you is: why have more games like ARMS that eases into learning only one concept when you can have a game that does that for ALL the concepts that make up a fighter? (And yes, basic execution like doing the input for a Hadoken is included).
Fighter games are more than just footsies. Its a bunch of stuff all going at the same time. Boiling down a fighter to only one concept leads to one that is boring to watch and lacks longevity.
Arc Christelle
Member
I'm a bit late to the off topic convo about 22 inputs but I wanted to state that they aren't hard and better than the SRK input in various ways, one in the benefit that it doesn't overlap QCF.
Vanguard Princess originated the input in replacement for for dps (although some characters retain Z motion for inputs outside of uppercuts/dps like Lilith and her elbow drop.)
Trust me, I know it's new to a lot of players, but once you get used to it, you will love it, rush down with it, and even see that it makes more sense than Z motion.
=-==================
As for the Thread, I like the fact Arena Fighters exist and are accessible for the masses, however that does not invalidate the depth and properties of traditional fighting game design, all 3-8 buttons have a purpose, and learning those purposes are a part of learning the game.
Also, if you're interested in Arena Fighters feel free to check out my old ass thread.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=708590&highlight=castlevania+judgement+arena
Vanguard Princess originated the input in replacement for for dps (although some characters retain Z motion for inputs outside of uppercuts/dps like Lilith and her elbow drop.)
Trust me, I know it's new to a lot of players, but once you get used to it, you will love it, rush down with it, and even see that it makes more sense than Z motion.
=-==================
As for the Thread, I like the fact Arena Fighters exist and are accessible for the masses, however that does not invalidate the depth and properties of traditional fighting game design, all 3-8 buttons have a purpose, and learning those purposes are a part of learning the game.
Also, if you're interested in Arena Fighters feel free to check out my old ass thread.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=708590&highlight=castlevania+judgement+arena
『Inaba Resident』;243849129 said:
Why not both? We can have things like ARMS and Pocket Fighter. Even if it's not the perfect tutorial, it's still a really fun one, which doesn't seem to be common?
And I dunno, is it not fun to watch? I don't really watch fighting games, it's not really my concern.
tenderbrew
Member
I don't know if I even buy the ARMs as a tutorial argument completely here. I don't think of playing ARMs as a precursor to something else, I think of it as a completely separate thing. I'm not going to be playing it and one day "graduate" to a "real fighting game." My admiration of the product is in it's implementation and simplicity of design. I would love instead to see more games like it & Pokken (or for those series to continue and mature into even richer experiences without compromising what makes them great.)
Nintendo's Witch
Member
Smash Bros?
ãInaba Residentã
Banned
You're saying that you want more "tutorial games like ARMS for the purpose of teaching someone how to play a fighting game. I'm saying that's bad because you can design a better "tutorial" game that doesn't cut out concepts that are important when learning a fighting game.
Having more games that are designed around something "simple" like ARMS is 100% fine. I myself enjoy the Naruto Storm games. But making those games for the purpose of serving as "tutorial" games? I think that's wasted effort. Cutting out concepts is not how you teach people.
And from what I understand, the general opinion that I've seen online is that ARMS isn't very fun to watch. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I agree. I think ARMS is fine for what it is. It's not trying to be super deep or teaching someone the intricacies of fighting games and that's fine. It's doing its own thing and there's value in that.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
I think ARMS is great and it's great that it exists
but there's absolutely nothing for traditional fighting games to learn from it. Or Smash really.
but there's absolutely nothing for traditional fighting games to learn from it. Or Smash really.
Yeah, let's all do what you want to do.
My issue with it is that it's just that little bit more cumbersome to perform walk up SRK on stick and it can't have backwards 22 and forwards 22 like with the traditional motion. Get something, lose something I suppose.
Arc Christelle
Member
As a stick player it's not. It's always a quick tap tap. Really good with dashes and hit confirms.
theclaw135
Banned
There's nothing to defend. The stereotypical Street Fighter input system is garbage and devs should be ashamed of themselves. Artificially raising the skill ceiling with convoluted commands needing specialist pads or sticks for any competitive hope, alienates fighting games from the greater mass acceptance they deserve.
Harken Raiser
Banned
I really liked Anarchy Reigns, it's one of my favorite games from the previous generation and I still think about it a lot. I feel like it deserved that greater mass acceptance you're talking about, but nobody bought it. You ever pick it up?
ãInaba Residentã
Banned
Please let this be a copypasta
There's nothing to defend. The stereotypical Street Fighter input system is garbage and devs should be ashamed of themselves. Artificially raising the skill ceiling with convoluted commands needing specialist pads or sticks for any competitive hope, alienates fighting games from the greater mass acceptance they deserve.『Inaba Resident』;243874317 said:
theclaw135
Banned
I suppose it was alright in the arcade originals. Everyone used a stick, leveling the playing field, and it hadn't yet become cliche by other games copying it left and right.
Professor Beef
Banned
You seem to have forgotten what thread you're in『Inaba Resident』;243874317 said:
ãInaba Residentã
Banned
Its been said before but the special inputs aren't there to artificially raise the skill ceiling. Characters are completely designed around their inputs.
Also, 3 days ago, RyanLV won EVO for Marvel vs Capcom 3 and Punk came in 2nd place for SFV. Both of these people are pad players. Hell, a few years back, Luffy won SF4 with a goddamn PS1 pad. The idea that you need a stick to be competitive is 100% false. The controller option is a preference.
I'm an optimist.
depths20XX
Member
It's not surprising many can't be bothered to learn the basics of fighting games when there's still ignorance like this going around.
theclaw135
Banned
Then tell me what I need to know to not be ignorant. Let's hear about fighting games with alternative input systems, to weigh their pros and cons against Street Fighter.
Ordinaryundone
Member
It still blows my mind that people psych themselves out so hard when it comes to inputs. Like, is a QCF really that complicated? It's literally just moving the stick from down to sideways in one motion. I understand that it takes practice to do these things CONSISTENTLY but to say you freak out and can't even complete a tutorial because it wants you to do a QCF? That's all in your head I think.
I wonder if it's because most fighting games are 2D, or mostly happen on a 2D plane? Back then left and right were the go to "move" directions while up and down were mostly reserved for speciality actions, and that held true for a lot of genres. For me, growing up playing platformers or beat em ups made fighting games make perfect sense. I learned how to play SF2 when I was, like, 7. It's not that hard. But if you are used to 3D, where something like a QCF or SRK really has no place due to how it would move your character strangely? Maybe that's the hold up. For Honor is an example of a fighting game that absolutely wouldn't work with standard motions, just based on how you use the stick to move around.
I wonder if it's because most fighting games are 2D, or mostly happen on a 2D plane? Back then left and right were the go to "move" directions while up and down were mostly reserved for speciality actions, and that held true for a lot of genres. For me, growing up playing platformers or beat em ups made fighting games make perfect sense. I learned how to play SF2 when I was, like, 7. It's not that hard. But if you are used to 3D, where something like a QCF or SRK really has no place due to how it would move your character strangely? Maybe that's the hold up. For Honor is an example of a fighting game that absolutely wouldn't work with standard motions, just based on how you use the stick to move around.
theclaw135
Banned
QCF is easy. But when you get into stringing them together in chains of half-circles, Zs, whatever, within a strict number of frames... Where do you draw the line? How much is too much to reasonably expect from players?
Gundam VS, Virtual On. Both are better fighting games than Arms too.
Ordinaryundone
Member
Again, I think you are selling yourself short. It isn't some sort of arcane ritual, it's muscle memory. Like playing the piano. If it helps what I like to do is break everything down into pieces. It's not just one long "combo", it's a bunch of moves or short strings of moves that happen to lead into one another. So you practice each part individually and start identifying how they fit together, or how each of these blocks could be shuffled around to make other combos. It's about finding the rhythm of the inputs, which is coincidentally one of the reasons I like combo heavy fighting games since they remind me of rhythm games. You do have to practice to get that muscle memory but, like playing music, you'd be surprised how much of it carries over to just about any other fighting game once you have it.
I don't really think there is an upper limit on what's "reasonable", because honestly most of my favorite fighters are older ones that had significantly stricter inputs and timing than modern games. But even then the games weren't unplayable if you couldn't do every little thing; you just had to make do with simpler strategies until you felt confident in your execution which just goes back to practicing. Fighting games are 90% identifying and exploiting your opponent anyway, you don't need to be fancy to do that. It just helps and gives you more options.
atomic moth
Member
It's already been pointed out, but this opinion is demonstrably wrong and actually contributes to the inaccessibility of fighting games and the general misconceptions about fighting game communities.
The weighing is done by people's response to a game and whether they make it a commercial success that's played in tournaments for decades or they ignore it and it is forgotten. Fighting games with alternative input systems exist- exactly how many exist is up for debate and comes down to how far any given person is willing to stretch their personal definition of what constitutes a fighting game. Smash has done well commercially and as a tournament game, but it's a single franchise which has arguably the most known popular characters in all of gaming, and is made and published by a company known for its loyal fanbase. There have been many fighting (or fighting-esque) games with simplified/alternative inputs, but none of them have really caught on. Is it that Nintendo is uniquely amazing and other devs just cant manage to make a good fighter with non-traditional inputs? or is that the inputs in fighters which have stood the test of time have legitimate merit which has enabled numerous devs to make successful games in that space?
Patrick Young
Member
Yes. Back when I gave fighting games a chance, I had to Google what "QCF" meant, THEN figured out which quarter exactly I'm meant to use.
I tried Skullgirls and the latest Killer Instinct. I got stuck in the tutorials.
Everything in your first post has already been covered in this thread, but eh, I'm bored.
There's nothing artificial about it, the point to having these inputs is to allow the player to do more with their character without resorting to adding even more buttons. These inputs also have a more complicated effect on the balance of certain attacks, meaning many attacks are built with the existence of these inputs in mind. They are an elegant solution to a problem, and are still used for very good reasons.
Special pads and sticks are not required. There are players wining EVO with standard pads. It's all about preference.
Simplified inputs has no effect on increasing acceptance, it's been tried many times. Did you know games like Guilty Gear and Blazblue(often seen as games that are really hard to get into) have Stylish modes? It's an option that allows the player to pull off these specials without using the traditional inputs AND gives them auto combos! There are of course limits to such a system since the traditional style exists for a reason, but if you just want to pick up the game and play casually it's exactly what you're asking for.
Why can't they expect more from the player? I love games that allow me to invest time in order to improve so I can do cooler things than at a surface level. So maybe that's not your thing, but what's so wrong about making games that do that for those that enjoy it?
LordKasual
Banned
If you were to decide to play piano or guitar, would you bitch about the "SUPER COMPLEX INPUTS AND TIMING" required to correctly play a song??? Or are you going to sit down with a beginner's book and start from the bottom playing one note at a time like anyone else who learned to play a song?
If you went to the store, bought a basketball, and decided to learn to play the sport, do you complain about "BARRIER TO ENTRY" when you step on a local court and get shat on by people who actually play the game? Do you expect the ball to dribble and do layups for you??? Why is it suddenly different for fighting games? HOW is it different for fighting games? Why do you people believe so adamantly that you're entitled to free mastery over something?
Because fighting games are all about mastery, the concept of being better than someone in multiple areas is the entire point of the game. If you want to get good at something, you practice practice practice until you master it. It's not the fighting game devs, it's not the inputs, it's not the timing, it's not the community. It is JUST YOU, and what YOU are willing to learn.
If you feel like you shouldn't have to learn how to correctly play a guitar, just go buy Guitar Hero and feel like a boss strumming away. But don't bitch about how "badly designed" a real guitar is just because you're unwilling to learn how to play one.
this thread is just full of people displaying their sense of entitlement and crying over their own deluded laziness.
How does this even happen. Were the images of the motions in the move list not enough to figure out how to do them?
this thread is incredible
Awww cmon. I think that what you need is a good ol' sit down session with someone and they'll set you right. I taught my niece about dp motions and 360s so it can't be too bad.
Awww cmon. I think that what you need is a good ol' sit down session with someone and they'll set you right. I taught my niece about dp motions and 360s so it can't be too bad.
Tarextherex
Banned
There is not much footsies in general in Smash 4, not in a game where everyone can run up and shield without getting pushed/moves have fucked up priority/worse buffering system
But yes other characters like Marth and Pit are more "Ryu" than him in Smash. He's more of a powerful character, like his design is about doing combos and getting extremely rewarded for knowing how to do a DP
Glitter and Gold
Banned
I mean I think it's fine to decide that it's too much trouble for you to bother. Like I played Rainbow Six Siege with some friends and when I looked at some tutorials and saw how important using lean buttons around corners quickly was, I decided it wasn't something I wanted to bother with. It's your free time and if you don't want to spend it practicing and doing research I don't blame you.
I just think its super lame though to not own up to it. Instead of just deciding its not something you want to do, you have to make it out to be some unreasonable request that no person could possibly achieve and that you should be able to play without doing that stuff.
Idk that just comes off to me as an incredibly self centered and ignorant perspective. You have no interest in learning what makes the games compelling to people as is and just want it changed to suit your needs. Because if you can't have fun with it obviously no one could possibly find this kind of game fun and that's a personal failing of the developers I guess.