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Baryn · Dec 28, 2007

MisterHero said:
WiiWare says hi.

But I guess you need an actual office space and be a licensed developer to get a dev kit.

FOOL WiiWare is not the same thing.

You can't choose your price, and WiiWare is not aimed at indie development, but small-time developers. The most prominent WiiWare game right now is from Square Enix for chrissakes!

itxaka · Dec 28, 2007

fuck yes. I knew i didn´t have to sell my MLB power pros copy, even when it didn´t work on my pal. Ordering the Hajime no ippo game rigth now. Next one? Naruto shippuden one. Next one? mmmm, just wait until SSB to see if they delay it on europeland, if they do, next one to arrive.

blu · Dec 28, 2007

seems like half gaf live under a rock. 'couple of fresh-coffee points for those gentlemen:

1. unless you lived in gobi, getting a wii modded is freaking darn easy. to the point where everyone with semi-serious pirating intentions already have their units modded. anecdotally, i live in uptown toronto and i have 2 shops within walking distance of my place, where i can walk in and get a wii modded if i wanted to. haven't checked the price of the service, but i'd assume it'd be quite affordable.

2. watch the freakin video carefully - you can't run fake-signed disks without a mod chip.

3. pirating did _not_ kill the dc. it was just the last straw.

4. thinking that sony are happy about the whole cat-mouse psp fw game is beyond naive. thinking that psp owners are happy about that either is idiotic.

sprsk · Dec 29, 2007

I hope this leads to a lot of cool Homebrew. Obviously piracy has been possible for a long time, but I think the Wii has a lot of potential in terms of just neat programs.

Hell, we could get that crazy guy who made the vr stuff to make some real homebrew.

IzumiK · Dec 29, 2007

Prepare to fill that SD card with apps! :lol

Guybrush Threepwood · Dec 29, 2007

This is awesome.

Too bad Nintendo will find a way to crush all of this, though.

Zerodoppler · Dec 29, 2007

Anything that might lessen the sales of shitty shovelware ports gets a thumbs up from me. Better bail out while you can, third parties.

DDayton · Dec 29, 2007

Oh dear. Granted, the requirement of a chip o'evil does make this a little less meaningful, but it's never a good sign when things like this happen.

(Yes, I love homebrew... I'm just fully away of what 99% of folks with "modded"/etc. systems actually use those systems for.)

Durante · Dec 29, 2007

blu said:
seems like half gaf live under a rock. 'couple of fresh-coffee points for those gentlemen:

1. unless you lived in gobi, getting a wii modded is freaking darn easy. to the point where everyone with semi-serious pirating intentions already have their units modded. anecdotally, i live in uptown toronto and i have 2 shops within walking distance of my place, where i can walk in and get a wii modded if i wanted to. haven't checked the price of the service, but i'd assume it'd be quite affordable.

2. watch the freakin video carefully - you can't run fake-signed disks without a mod chip.

Thanks, that needed to be said (again). Unless they also manage to sign SD card apps this won't make piracy any easier than it already is.

DavidDayton said:
it's never a good sign when things like this happen.

Why not? Both defeating region lock and the possibility of homebrew apps are good things in my book. (and, as a minority interest that is important to me, the possibility of playing undubbed games)

Jokeropia · Dec 29, 2007

Doc Evils said:
yeah but it destroyed the dreamcast on how simple it was to do.

So what was the difference between the PS2 and the Dreamcast that made one get through unscathed and the other not? I'll give you a hint, the PS2 was (already) successful and the Dreamcast not.

Imperial Hot · Dec 29, 2007

blu said:
seems like half gaf live under a rock. 'couple of fresh-coffee points for those gentlemen:

1. unless you lived in gobi, getting a wii modded is freaking darn easy. to the point where everyone with semi-serious pirating intentions already have their units modded. anecdotally, i live in uptown toronto and i have 2 shops within walking distance of my place, where i can walk in and get a wii modded if i wanted to. haven't checked the price of the service, but i'd assume it'd be quite affordable.

2. watch the freakin video carefully - you can't run fake-signed disks without a mod chip.

3. pirating did _not_ kill the dc. it was just the last straw.

4. thinking that sony are happy about the whole cat-mouse psp fw game is beyond naive. thinking that psp owners are happy about that either is idiotic.

He never says whether the Wii is modded. However, the method he describes makes it seem as though no chip is required.

DDayton · Dec 29, 2007

Durante said:
Why not? Both defeating region lock and the possibility of homebrew apps are good things in my book.

DavidDayton said:
(Yes, I love homebrew... I'm just fully away of what 99% of folks with "modded"/etc. systems actually use those systems for.)

It's a step closer to massive piracy levels when you can simply burn a disk to play a "backup" (cough, cough) of a game.

I love homebrew. I love a lack of region locks. I'd rather give up both of those if it meant we had no piracy.

JonathanEx · Dec 29, 2007

snack said:
He never says whether the Wii is modded. However, the method he describes makes it seem as though no chip is required.

The video's poster said it needs to be modded in the comments, I think.

Durante · Dec 29, 2007

DavidDayton said:
I love homebrew. I love a lack of region locks. I'd rather give up both of those if it meant we had no piracy.

But that's a false dichotomy. Before this, we had piracy, but we also had no homebrew and region locking. Now, we will still have piracy, but we'll also have homebrew and most likely defeat region locking. So this development seems wholly positive to me.

The "simply burn a disc" piracy (without hardware mods) you envision still won't happen with this because burned discs fail at the drive firmware level in an unmodded Wii. (burned copies are already signed correctly so getting the encryption key doesn't change the situation at all)

Axalon · Dec 29, 2007

JonathanEx said:
The video's poster said it needs to be modded in the comments, I think.

Yeah, but does accomplishing the painfully technical task of uploading a freaking video make him an expert on it's contents?

Hardly a reliable source.

DDayton · Dec 29, 2007

Durante said:
The "simply burn a disc" piracy (without hardware mods) you envision still won't happen with this because burned discs fail at the drive firmware level in an unmodded Wii. (burned copies are already signed correctly so getting the encryption key doesn't change the situation at all)

See, as long as that's the case, things remain about the same... albiet with homebrew/hacking/etc..

I suppose what it comes down to is that I like hacking/etc., but I prefer it to happen after there isn't a chance for it to be abused. Homebrew guys are great, but most of their discoveries end up being manhandled by pirate groups and the dimwitted for lesser and more nefarious things.

Being able to run your own code on the Wii is neat, but it will help those who want to make mass piracy easier...

papelnabangka · Dec 29, 2007

Piracy only kills the less popular consoles. Ironically enough, the most popular ones probably have way more piracy going on.

Fuzzery · Dec 29, 2007

And this is why Nintendo needs a private ninja army.

JonathanEx · Dec 29, 2007

Axalon said:
Yeah, but does accomplishing the painfully technical task of uploading a freaking video make him an expert on it's contents?

Hardly a reliable source.

Jus' saying. It could be that the person who posted it was there, part of the team, etc. All hypotheticals, I'm too tired to check.

Golden Darkness · Dec 29, 2007

JonathanEx said:
Jus' saying. It could be that the person who posted it was there, part of the team, etc. All hypotheticals, I'm too tired to check.

I think he just snipped the video that was available (a 700 MB) and posted the Wii portion only.

The talk I believe was originally about hacking the XBox 360.

wsippel · Dec 29, 2007

Golden Darkness said:
I think he just snipped the video that was available (a 700 MB) and posted the Wii portion only.

The talk I believe was originally about hacking the XBox 360.

Because they only managed to get the Wii hack up and running about an hour before their session started, as far as I understand. They will give more details about the Wii hack this Sunday evening it seems:

there is a "Lightning Talk" with the topic "Console Hacking: State of the Wii" by Ben Byer+others

on

Day#4, Sun, 17:15--19:30, Room#3
this ist central european time i think

and there is a live stream:

mms://streaming-internet.fem.tu-ilmenau.de/saal3
mms://81.163.6.120/saal3

Speevy · Dec 29, 2007

Nintendo is doing a pretty poor job in securing their system.

Datel already released a new disc for running homebrew in Gamecube mode, one which overrides the previous fix Nintendo implemented.

Now with Wii homebrew, I think this will be the most hacked system of this generation (aside from the PS3 Linux, which is endorsed by Sony)

Beer Monkey · Dec 29, 2007

AltogetherAndrews said:
Ah yes, piracy. That's precisely what the Wii and its incredible software sales needs.

DS software sales have tanked in the last couple of years since those easy flash cards came out.

papelnabangka · Dec 29, 2007

DavidDayton said:
See, as long as that's the case, things remain about the same... albiet with homebrew/hacking/etc..

I suppose what it comes down to is that I like hacking/etc., but I prefer it to happen after there isn't a chance for it to be abused. Homebrew guys are great, but most of their discoveries end up being manhandled by pirate groups and the dimwitted for lesser and more nefarious things.

Being able to run your own code on the Wii is neat, but it will help those who want to make mass piracy easier...

Piracy, like death and taxes will always be here. Forever.

loosus · Dec 29, 2007

Wario64 thought bubble, December 28, 2007: "You know what? It's darn-near 2008. It's time for a Wii!"

Sullichin · Dec 29, 2007

PantherLotus said:
If this doesn't require a modchip (the current hack does -- used a ton in EU/Spain), then wiiconnect24 firmware updates could theoretically brick systems or remove illegal mods.

Potential results:
1. Nintendo can stop anybody from getting online with it through firmware brickage.
2. Mod/hack community gets into a tit for tat firmware/hack cycle (see PSP).
3. Gamers have to buy second Wii so they can have one offline system. Nintendo wins.

Who the hell would buy a second wii to play online? People actually play online games for Wii?

wsippel · Dec 29, 2007

Speevy said:
Nintendo is doing a pretty poor job in securing their system.

I guess they simply aren't really interested right now. They reached a point where some homebrew and even piracy might do more good than harm, depending on how easy/ convenient it is to pirate - it simply must not be too convenient. I might be wrong, but as far as I know, there are a few DS games that are pretty much impossible to pirate. And even though there's lots of piracy, they don't use those advanced protection schemes for most games. Which means they either don't care, or think some piracy helps to increase the installed base (which is most definitely true).

legend166 · Dec 29, 2007

Someone tell me if this means a Freeloader type disc will be made.

loosus · Dec 29, 2007

wsippel said:
I might be wrong, but as far as I know, there are a few DS games that are pretty much impossible to pirate.

Yeah, you're wrong.

modrobert · Dec 29, 2007

blu said:
seems like half gaf live under a rock. 'couple of fresh-coffee points for those gentlemen:

1. unless you lived in gobi, getting a wii modded is freaking darn easy. to the point where everyone with semi-serious pirating intentions already have their units modded. anecdotally, i live in uptown toronto and i have 2 shops within walking distance of my place, where i can walk in and get a wii modded if i wanted to. haven't checked the price of the service, but i'd assume it'd be quite affordable.

2. watch the freakin video carefully - you can't run fake-signed disks without a mod chip.

3. pirating did _not_ kill the dc. it was just the last straw.

4. thinking that sony are happy about the whole cat-mouse psp fw game is beyond naive. thinking that psp owners are happy about that either is idiotic.

They can patch the DVD drive RAM using Erant's serial cable, so no need for modchip unless its a Wii with D2C chipset.

blu · Dec 29, 2007

modrobert said:
They can patch the DVD drive RAM using Erant's serial cable, so no need for modchip unless its a Wii with D2C chipset.

still sounds like a servicing procedure to me, thus far from the 'little johny free to burn dvds at will' scenario.

if we were to make a parallel to the psp scene - the hackability of the current psp slim is far from that of the original phat prior to sony getting their fw act together, more or less. so, even if the wii reached psp slim levels of hackedness (i like the sound of that), that'd still be a far stretch from the original psp/dreamcast levels gaffers have been lamenting here.

and for one last time, for those who still have some delusions on the subject: everybody who has bothered/will bother to get their wii 'modded' can do that at the same or less effort as it would take them to figure out arcane cable-only-and-a-pinch-of-lavender tricks. so the premise of this whole argument is void.

The Elite · Dec 29, 2007

Gahiggidy said:
I don't support capital punishment, but its bullshit like this that really test my conscience.

modchips would make you change your mind on this matter? You are easily swayed.
:lol :lol

Golden Darkness · Dec 29, 2007

The entire video, just so you can see the context: http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=635757

With all this talk about the XBox 360, the bit of Wii news from the speakers became the talk on the net.

Vagabundo · Dec 29, 2007

My wish is for a port of mplayer to the Wii. That is all I want. Do it Hackorzzzz!!!

Hcoregamer00 · Dec 29, 2007

beermonkey@tehbias said:
DS software sales have tanked in the last couple of years since those easy flash cards came out.

Yes, there tends to be an relationship with piracy and sales, just look at the PSP.

JoshuaJSlone · Dec 29, 2007

Sullichin said:
Who the hell would buy a second wii to play online? People actually play online games for Wii?

I have yet to play a Wii game online, but I've used online features on Wii hundreds of times.

Nemesis_ · Dec 29, 2007

If I could use it to remove region protection - I'd probably do it - nothing else though.

Region protection is getting so old now, most high profile Xbox360 games are region free (bar most EA games) and PS3 is always gonna be.

So good.

godhandiscen · Dec 29, 2007

Baryn said:
I don't care if people use it for piracy, this means true indie development for Wii.

I hope I get pwned for laughing at this but at the moment, :lol

Fafalada · Dec 29, 2007

harSon said:
It could also drive the hardcores who have no problems with pirating into buying the system.

Hardcores don't have any problem pirating with more involved methods, so this isn't much of an issue.
And besides, if PSP is any indication, this invites hardcores who aren't interested in consoles at all, but now there's something to do with the system(ie. homebrew) and software is still 'free'.

modrobert · Dec 29, 2007

(sorry for the poor paste job)

It should also be noted that a tweezer was used to manipulate the address lines to reach the crypto keys in RAM, so now aka The Tweezer Hack.

Ronok · Dec 29, 2007

PS2 was easy to hack for years using just a boot disc. It's not like that killed the PS2. lol It is a worry for Nintendo though, especially with the flash cards on DS being so popular. I'm the only one in my class who has a DS and doesn't use a flash card. ; ;

Rayne.S · Dec 29, 2007

3. pirating did _not_ kill the dc. it was just the last straw.

Well, thats a different point of view... Sega obviously killed of the DC allthough not being able to make any money is the reason they did. Riddle me this ... near to no big budget games on the PSP, how come ?

lastendconductor · Dec 29, 2007

Gahiggidy said:
I don't support capital punishment, but its bullshit like this that really test my conscience.

:lol :lol :lol

Durante · Dec 29, 2007

Thinking about this some more, with these keys some unscrupulous manufacturer could potentially create a (pressed) DVD that allowed you to boot "backups" without any hardware modification. Thanks to Nintendo's retarded stance on region locking they would even have some amount of legal backing to release it (if it also disables region locking which shouldn't be a problem).

Diablohead · Dec 29, 2007

Durante said:
Thinking about this some more, with these keys some unscrupulous manufacturer could potentially create a (pressed) DVD that allowed you to boot "backups" without any hardware modification. Thanks to Nintendo's retarded stance on region locking they would even have some amount of legal backing to release it (if it also disables region locking which shouldn't be a problem).

i'm all up for a region unlocking dvd if someone ever produces one, it would save the hassle of importing an american wii next year for me once I want one.

D.Lo · Dec 29, 2007

So we're back to square one? Modchip required?

Don't these discs have rings with specially pressed data on them? The DC hack was possible because of some legacy code accidentally left buried in the firmware that allowed it to boot CDs, Sega thought their proprietary GDRoms would suffice. Almost every other CD/DVD console from the Saturn onward have had security measures printed on the discs preventing an unmodified console from playing non-officially burnt discs.

The only thing I can see coming out of this may be a freeloader/CDloader type disc which has had the stolen encryption code physically printed on it by a special machine.

Fafalada · Dec 29, 2007

Jokeropia said:
So what was the difference between the PS2 and the Dreamcast that made one get through unscathed and the other not?

I'd vager similar to the difference between DS and PSP.
To be fair though - PS2 did get lucky that the memory card exploit took 8 years to materialize. DS had some luck with time it took for flashcarts to become reliable as well.

DC and PSP took the short end of the stick on how well advertised the piracy became early on in their life.

blu · Dec 29, 2007

Rayne.S said:
Well, thats a different point of view... Sega obviously killed of the DC allthough not being able to make any money is the reason they did. Riddle me this ... near to no big budget games on the PSP, how come ?

dreamcast was sega's ps3 - it was the risky, overbudget venture that either could be the next big thing on the market, or kill you overnight if something minor went wrong. well, for sega things did not play out well. and yes, you could say that piracy was what was going wrong with the dc, but in practice it was a bunch of factors that made sega retreat - EA's boycot of the system not being the least among them. and sega's mis-step the generation before did not help either, but i guess you can put that in the 'dc being a risky venture' category. but let me throw in a fact you may find amusing: the moment sega dropped the towel was not when they learned the dc was hacked - no, sir, it was when they learned of microsoft's plans of entering the market. ponder upon this.

re psp's lack of big budget titles:

first, i don't think big-budget titles are that absent from the platform. keep in mind 'big bidget' for a home console and 'big budget' for a handheld are not the exact same notion - due to various factors, the 'casual' nature of the platform being one of them; as long as publishers view handhelds as a 'lunch break' form of entertainment you'll not see anything 'big budget' on the format, aside from the obligatory RPG. 'cause where are the big budget titles on the raving competitor DS? can you name one which is not an (J)RPG? or do you think any of the DS multi-milion sellers costed more than the high-profile psp titles of the same period?

sony gave you (and the whole market) the wrong idea of the psp - as simple as that. their marketing department created the image of 'a ps2 in the palm of your hand', whereas in reality the device was never destined to be that, heck, the market is not even sure they want a ps2 in their palm. so don't be looking for ps2-scale big-budget titles on the psp, at least not at a ps2-level frequency.

TAJ · Dec 29, 2007

Homebrew on Wii is completely pointless since the Wiimote, which is the only thing the platform has going for it, can be used on more capable platforms.
This is just for piracy.

AtomicShroom · Dec 29, 2007

TAJ said:
Homebrew on Wii is completely pointless since the Wiimote, which is the only thing the platform has going for it, can be used on more capable platforms.
This is just for piracy.

And just how many people have a Wiimote running on a more capable platform, exactly? Care to enlighten me? I don't see why homebrew developers would want to bother developing software that no one would use, as opposed to the Wii which everyone and their moms (literally) have.

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