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Flipyap · Oct 9, 2017

Did they seriously describe the grineer as "Warhammer 40,000-style marines?"

GlamFM said:
How about a quest on every exotic - 10.000 kills - BOOM - exclusive ornament. I´d be up for that.

Super cool ship for completing 100 Strikes?

There are so few ship models in Destiny 2 (also too few emblems... and loot in general), if they're going to add anything cool between "expansions," it's more likely to be a reward for spending 100 silver.
It's seriously shocking how aggressively they've cut down on the number of previously available cosmetics. I don't know how the numbers actually compare, but it feels more limited than it was in vanilla Destiny.

Orochinagis · Oct 9, 2017

Arklite said:
I suppose I should give WF another chance, as years ago the combat lacked a lot of impact with very simple stages and boring enemies. The movement system was cool but the stages and enemies hardly felt up to supporting it. As far as longevity and repeatability I'd rather have more complex co-op scenarios in Destiny than slow crafting. Also, A LOT more armours.

The diference with Destiny progression is once you reach max level on your Guardian, there is little you can do on his abilities, Destiny 1 allowed you better customization on your Guardian, on Destiny 2 you have option A and B and focus heavy on your armor to seek a balance on the stats you desire

Imagine adding more health or shields, or better power abilities at the cost of high energy bar , more range or doing supers more often but with less impact making your armor gear going to a cosmetic route and focus on your guardian and weapons deeply.

Saying this I dont think WF could work on Destiny enviroment

KrebStar · Oct 9, 2017

Orochinagis said:
Nonsense, at much you need 12 hrs to craft a weapon which can be done while you can go do other activities.

Warframes are the only ones who requires 72 hours and you can sell them or trade leftovers you dont own for PL if you want to rush them.

You dont need to pay , like at least play the game to understand the ecomony around platinum.

Like NullPointer said, you are not stuck, you can progress trought the game with your current gear, there are several crafted weapons you can buy with credits at right away.

Oh, I've played quite a bit of Warframe. That was more of a general dig at the idea of wait timers and how Bungie might implement such a thing, which would likely be poorly.

I'll give Digital Extremes credit, they tend to give you a number of ways around some of the more obnoxious f2p aspects of the game, but that doesn't change the fact that things like build timers are annoying at best.

Foxxsoxx · Oct 9, 2017

I want to like Warframe, and totally would if the enemies and world were more interesting, at least starting out.

Would have loved Warframe had it been a $60 dollar game with a little more budget. The expansion coming out looks great though.

texhnolyze · Oct 9, 2017

Fancolors said:
Put 18 hours into Warframe this week. There's often something to do, but I feel like the enemies are getting old. Besides I got to a point I probably need to spend Platinum to open up some slots, and I really don't want to get parts to trade.

I wish Destiny had Warframe's satisfying movement. That would be the dream.

Destiny with Warframe's movement and animation, on 3rd person perspective. I'll buy every season pass they throw out at me.

Truant · Oct 9, 2017

Warframe outdoes Destiny in a lot of ways, and it's also free. There's no reason to put any money into it if you have time to invest. It's a great podcast game.

Aztechnology · Oct 9, 2017

Gator86 said:
Diablo is a frequent point of comparison, but Destiny is so dissimilar in it's current iteration - there's little loot, no customization, no builds, no real progression past 20. Destiny is such a stripped down whatever the hell Destiny is, it doesn't really compare at all.

The raid system doesn't seem sustainable. I haven't done the D2 raid, but did the D1 ones. From what I hear about the new one, and having done the old ones, it seems like they're already stretching the limits of their creativity. Stand here or everyone dies, move mcguffin, fight off waves, filler platforming, bad stealth, repeat for next raid. I'd rather have more repeatable content than a raid I do once then never want to play again.

That's the interesting thing, I, even as someone who has been raiding in MMO's for years, recognize the faltering point of raids in today's gaming landscape, and the lack of agency the raids gives because of time restrictions, content restriction beyond the raid, limiting of gear etc. Actually removing raids in favor of integration into smaller releases that are more flexible in terms of reworking for additional difficulty levels, events etc. Benefits basically everyone. Better for casual players, better for hardcore players, better for Bungie. It also opens up a different kind of gameplay loop, like Diablo, provided they are willing to seperate PVP and PVE, because they can introduce a ton of varied and interesting gear, set pieces etc. That have no effect on PVP, but make PVE as rewarding. Seeing as very few events are designed with PVE players in mind.

Arklite · Oct 9, 2017

Orochinagis said:
Imagine adding more health or shields, or better power abilities at the cost of high energy bar , more range or doing supers more often but with less impact making your armor gear going to a cosmetic route and focus on your guardian and weapons deeply.

Saying this I dont think WF could work on Destiny enviroment

That definitely sounds appealing to me, and I think Bungie could manage it by expanding the mod capabilities in D2 to let you have a much bigger impact. I guess it might interfere with the balance of the three different classes, though

Nordicus · Oct 9, 2017

GReeeeN said:
But it all comes back to perfecting a weapon(s) to essentially kill things faster and handle better, which is more of a personal gain rather than exclusive cosmetics to "show off" your character.

Are there any end game activities in Warframe that reward certain types of weapons or cosmetics or mods that are exclusive to that specific activity and can only be unlocked by playing or having a certain skill as a player? Something that essentially shows what you have done in the game by simply looking at the gear/ weapon piece rather than spending thousands of hours just increasing how perfect a weapon can be?

There is some flashy looking gear, and the accumulation of cosmetic options, that will usually show your dedication to the game.

Here is Nyx, and Nyx Prime. One is a Warframe (read: character class) that you can get fairly early on and is one of my favorites. The other is same Warframe with better customization options and subtly better stats, that you grind for by playing appropriate Fissure missions, which do exist at levels as low as Level 1 sometimes, as they vary in specific mission type and level. Some parts of the Prime gear you will have to grind from higher level content, mind you.

Now, in case of Nyx Prime specifically, that Warframe is currently "vaulted" for the time being, meaning you can not get it as straight up loot under most circumstances, and will most likely have to trade Platinum (real-money currency that is widely used as trading currency between players) to get the crafting parts for.

So for anyone who is aware of which items are temporarily off drop tables, Nyx Prime is a pretty rare sight. Same with Frost Prime, Rhino Prime, several other Prime Warframe and Weapons that are slightly stronger than their normal counterparts.

And if you've grinded enough of the game to get rare drops that other players traded with you for platinum, you'll likely have enough of it to get cosmetic microtransaction stuff on top of it, allowing you to go heavy on "Fashionframe"

Thing is, the content to get that flashy gear, while certainly a grind, isn't the toughest content. The toughest content, Sorties, will give you some of the best power for your arsenal, but without affecting your looks. Prime equipment is stronger, but only enough to probably make you throw away the vanilla version if you have it, but absolutely not enough to powercreep vanilla gear out of high level content viability.

NullPointer · Oct 9, 2017

Nordicus said:
Here is Nyx, and Nyx Prime. One is a Warframe (read: character class) that you can get fairly early on and is one of my favorites. The other is same Warframe with better customization options and subtly better stats, that you grind for by playing appropriate Fissure missions, which do exist at levels as low as Level 1 sometimes, as they vary in specific mission type and level. Some parts of the Prime gear you will have to grind from higher level content, mind you.

And my personal Nyx:

Custom jetpack syndana (just visual), custom animations (she floats off the ground -- stolen from the Titania frame), custom shoulder armor parts, custom color scheme and custom clan glyphs on both shoulders.

Hatefilled Vengeance · Oct 9, 2017

It's unreal how much of a better game Warframe is than Destiny and what they're able to accomplish as a f2p game. I was hoping Bungie would learn from them for the sequel, but they unfortunately seem to be going in the opposite direction.

Kaname · Oct 9, 2017

Fancolors said:
Put 18 hours into Warframe this week. There's often something to do, but I feel like the enemies are getting old. Besides I got to a point I probably need to spend Platinum to open up some slots, and I really don't want to get parts to trade.

I wish Destiny had Warframe's satisfying movement. That would be the dream.

You get a lot of different enemies when you travel to new planets. I started feeling like that but after reaching a couple of new planet I was excited to run away from strange stuff almost killing me lol
Plus it's not like Destiny had such a great enemy variety either honestly.

Rexatality · Oct 9, 2017

All Bungie has to do is look at Year 2 and Year 3 of Destiny 1 to fix Destiny 2's problems.

It's not fucking rocket science. And their fanatical stubbornness from separating the balance of PvE and PvP are hurting the game big time.

kiaaa · Oct 9, 2017

D2 left out a ton of the improvements TTK and beyond brought to D1, important improvements that added a lot of fun and replayability to the game.

Now, my coworkers and I just do the nightfall and the weeklies and that's pretty much it. We never get on just to run a few strikes or play crucible like we did in D1.

HooYaH · Oct 9, 2017

Kaname said:
You get a lot of different enemies when you travel to new planets. I started feeling like that but after reaching a couple of new planet I was excited to run away from strange stuff almost killing me lol
Plus it's not like Destiny had such a great enemy variety either honestly.

Not really true and that's one of the weaknesses of WF. Scaling is out of wack and the devs don't have a clue on how to fix it for a couple of years now. Once you get OP, it just becomes a Musou game.

The mechanics of WF is enjoyable, but DE has a problem with half-assing on most of their features.

serenewarfare · Oct 9, 2017

The presence of PVP and Bungie's attitude towards it hurts Destiny 2 a lot more than it helps.

Bold One · Oct 9, 2017

Outside of the movement and applicable weapon sets, warframe's grind is too intense. It's a fantastic game but Destiny is far more rewarding. Getting drops of weapons and armour that you can use instantly use is preferable to warframe's approach.

Bungo could learn a thing or two from DE regarding end game but I doubt their ego would allow it.

NullPointer · Oct 9, 2017

Hatefilled Vengeance said:
It's unreal how much of a better game Warframe is than Destiny and what they're able to accomplish as a f2p game. I was hoping Bungie would learn from them for the sequel, but they unfortunately seem to be going in the opposite direction.

I wonder whether thats' just Bungie's design sense at work, or if the systems in game are there to make further DLC feel mandatory. Through that lens a lot of the game's design (but not all) makes sense.

2blackcats · Oct 9, 2017

Downloading Warframe again.

Played it a few years ago and it was terrible, sounds like it's improved considerably.

TatteredHat · Oct 9, 2017

Just hit Rank 5 recently in WF, still enjoying it a lot. I can totally see the gameplay becoming dull after a while but it's free anyway and the amount of customization is great enjoyable.

Mozendo · Oct 9, 2017

2blackcats said:
Downloading Warframe again.

Played it a few years ago and it was terrible, sounds like it's improved considerably.

What didn't you like about it?
I've tried going back to it several times, even bought the $10 price error bundle and I still can't get into it. The combat just feels horrible, it too floaty with no substance, and the grind is even worse than Korean F2P games

Cels · Oct 9, 2017

The idea of playing to get "rewarded" is so fascinating to me.

If you play destiny 2 for 15 hours in a week but at the end of that week your character is not intrinsically any better than before, do you feel like you wasted your time? Many would say yes, right? Suppose you, the player, got incrementally better at the game during those 15 hours. Again, many would still say yes. It sounds like player psychology has gotten to a point where if there is no "progression" then the player feels like they're wasting their time. Xp bars must fill up, items must unlock, player power must increase, ticks must be checked off to satisfy that craving. But for me, if I would not play the game without some kind of reward, I probably wouldnt play the game at all.

In loot based games the longer you play the longer and longer you will have to wait between upgrades. This is part of why diablo 3 has its paragon system, so even though you may not have found an upgrade during those 15 hours, your character got stronger...if just by a little bit. It sounds like warframe has a similar system.

irrotational · Oct 9, 2017

It's an interesting article, and there are a lot of interesting comments so far... But I feel it misses the point.

Bungie doesn't WANT a game with a huge end game grind. Since TTK every single change they have made has shortened the time taken to get to max power, and reduced the benefits of continuing to play once at max power.

Even Datto has finally realised that Bungie are aiming to make a loot shooter for the mass market, in my opinion to try and take on cod and battlefield.

The article talks about warframe levelling guns via kills... But it doesn't mention that Destiny had a version of this system (leveling guns to unlock perks) that they continually made easier and then removed in D2. It seems clear to me that Bungie don't want that system (and implied grind) in their game.

The article, and quite a few of the comments here, want the game to be something very different from what Bungie are making.. And I don't think that's because Bungie don't know how to do it... It's because they don't WANT to do it.

Don't forget, Luke Smith (creative director of D2) is/was a scarab lord in WoW. I have only the vaguest understanding of what that is, but I know that he fully understands how crazy grinding systems can be built.

Teknopathetic · Oct 9, 2017

"In loot based games the longer you play the longer and longer you will have to wait between upgrades. This is part of why diablo 3 has its paragon system, so even though you may not have found an upgrade during those 15 hours, your character got stronger...if just by a little bit. It sounds like warframe has a similar system."

Warframe progression is largely lateral, not vertical. Getting to the point where you're powerful enough to complete sorties or high level endless missions doesn't take long. What you do from that point isn't increasing your power, but acquiring more options and different ways to play the game.

NullPointer · Oct 9, 2017

irrotational said:
The article, and quite a few of the comments here, want the game to be something very different from what Bungie are making.. And I don't think that's because Bungie don't know how to do it... It's because they don't WANT to do it.

Don't forget, Luke Smith (creative director of D2) is/was a scarab lord in WoW. I have only the vaguest understanding of what that is, but I know that he fully understands how crazy grinding systems can be built.

They don't want to do it now seemingly, but they sure looked like they wanted to with D1, and thus gained some fans based upon how that game worked.

I also never got the impression that Luke Smith's MMO history was a reason to move away from those things. Quite the opposite actually.

D2 definitely looks like a pivot, but maybe less reliant of player-driven grinds by replaying the content endlessly in the D1 style and more towards scheduled events similar to their Trials.

They've changed some things up in D2 which makes me wonder if their forthcoming DLC will be in the mold of D1 or something different.

RollerMeister · Oct 9, 2017

I recently tried out Warframe, but I couldn't stick with it.

Didn't mind the 12-24 hour build times on gear, even though it felt a bit ridiculous, but then when I realized I couldn't even keep everything I'd unlock in the game without spending money, I quickly lost interest.

Which is a shame, since the game seemed fun.

mabec · Oct 9, 2017

So confused over this thread. Either you love it or hate it. Destiny 2 was pretty boring to me, curious if this any better. Overwhelmingly good reviews on Steam too

Rexatality · Oct 9, 2017

irrotational said:
It's an interesting article, and there are a lot of interesting comments so far... But I feel it misses the point.

Bungie doesn't WANT a game with a huge end game grind. Since TTK every single change they have made has shortened the time taken to get to max power, and reduced the benefits of continuing to play once at max power.

Even Datto has finally realised that Bungie are aiming to make a loot shooter for the mass market, in my opinion to try and take on cod and battlefield.

The article talks about warframe levelling guns via kills... But it doesn't mention that Destiny had a version of this system (leveling guns to unlock perks) that they continually made easier and then removed in D2. It seems clear to me that Bungie don't want that system (and implied grind) in their game.

The article, and quite a few of the comments here, want the game to be something very different from what Bungie are making.. And I don't think that's because Bungie don't know how to do it... It's because they don't WANT to do it.

Don't forget, Luke Smith (creative director of D2) is/was a scarab lord in WoW. I have only the vaguest understanding of what that is, but I know that he fully understands how crazy grinding systems can be built.

Well, if they could, they could get away with not having raids, but they wouldn't considering how much players value the raids.

After all, House of Wolves got some scathing impressions from the players because it didn't have a raid

Personally, I'd like them to expand more on the PvE endgame, have it more than just playing Nightfall/Raid every week. World bosses, endless horde mode, and so on.

FyreWulff · Oct 9, 2017

They're both different and good games and I'd like them to stay that way, thanks.

GlamFM · Oct 9, 2017

irrotational said:
Even Datto has finally realised that Bungie are aiming to make a loot shooter for the mass market, in my opinion to try and take on cod.

Ironic given that there is more to grind for in COD and it actually takes longer.

I don´t think it´s the COD crowd they are going for.

But honestly I don´t know what they are going for at all because D2 seems to be entirely aimless right now.

"Here are Strikes!" - but no reason to play them
"Here are adventures!" - again, no reason at all
"Here are Lost Sectors!" - yep, good for nothing

"Anyway, please show up once a week to collect your free loot at the clan vendor."

Once you hit 305 it gets worse. No idea why I should play a nightfall or actually ever do a milestone again.

I´ll play IB, but I assume I will be done with it after 2 hrs or so because the way they give out loot I will have my full kit by then.

Fbh · Oct 9, 2017

So how is Warframe on Ps4 these days ?.

I remember trying it out when it just came out on Ps4 and not being very hooked. It did a terrible job at explaining itself and in the 2-3 hours it felt like I just played the same map over and over again.

But I've seen a lot of people that seem to like it, and it has obviously gotten a TON of updates since release.

Would be worth it to give it another chance ? Is the Ps4 community still active and is it fun of I'm just going to be playing it with one (sometimes mabye 2) friend?

panda-zebra · Oct 9, 2017

AusRoachman said:
It was a hell of a grind but i actually loved it, i think destiny Year 1 is the best it ever was. Sure i grinded for months and months , it took me 3-4 months to get my first exotic , its amazing how different it feels with so much loot being thrown at you (largely all of it under levelled/useless).

Agree with this completely. As a jrpg/srpg fan and not much of a FPS person, I thoroughly enjoyed the grind.

Destiny 2 trivialised everything, little more than a few weeks in with a max power character I physically couldn't bring myself to load the game up anymore, absolutely no reason or desire to with nothing of substance to take on and no reward for doing so. I'll go back for the expansions I've already paid for but I see little point playing a game of dress-ups, obtaining outfits that do nothing but look differently, meh.

If Warframe offers a lot of substance and reasons to do things beyond a few weeks effort, then I really should give that a go again instead.

GlamFM · Oct 9, 2017

AusRoachman said:
From memory destiny 1 behaved in a similar way to warframe, guns required upgrading, the more you played the more abilities your gun unlocked.

It was a hell of a grind but i actually loved it, i think destiny Year 1 is the best it ever was. Sure i grinded for months and months , it took me 3-4 months to get my first exotic , its amazing how different it feels with so much loot being thrown at you (largely all of it under levelled/useless).

It was Bestiny for sure.

Nordicus · Oct 9, 2017

NullPointer said:
And my personal Nyx

Hating you just a little right now.

Nyx is not a toptier frame so her parts aren't super expensive, but it's gonna be a hell of a long time before I can get her still.

Bold One said:
Getting drops of weapons and armour that you can use instantly use is preferable to warframe's approach.

I honestly think if Warframe was a boxed product, you wouldn't have any of the crafting timers.

The timers are there to keep you coming back tomorrow and possibly play several hours because you just gained an entirely new warframe or weapon.

Cels said:
In loot based games the longer you play the longer and longer you will have to wait between upgrades. This is part of why diablo 3 has its paragon system, so even though you may not have found an upgrade during those 15 hours, your character got stronger...if just by a little bit. It sounds like warframe has a similar system.

Teknopathetic said:
Warframe progression is largely lateral, not vertical. Getting to the point where you're powerful enough to complete sorties or high level endless missions doesn't take long. What you do from that point isn't increasing your power, but acquiring more options and different ways to play the game.

Yeah, a massive majority of Warframe's time is spent looking for horizontal progression. The arsenal is distinctive and varied enough that the game can live on that. I personally have to contort myself a little to grind for a power-up to my existing build.

Riven mods, which are the highest grade mods in game and you'll have to do level 100 content for those? They explicitly give biggest buffs for unpopular/crappy weapons.

RollerMeister said:
Didn't mind the 12-24 hour build times on gear, even though it felt a bit ridiculous, but then when I realized I couldn't even keep everything I'd unlock in the game without spending money, I quickly lost interest.

While I share the same sentiment as you on the initial amount of storage space in Warframe, which barely lets you keep your essentials and really fucking squeezes your wrist for a $5-$10 investment, once/if you get over that you can't keep every weapon and Warframe forever at the same time without putting in quite a bit of money, the system is kinda clever.

Once you get the balance just right for free players, Warframe's method of charging for extra storage is one of the smarter ways to implement microtransactions that I've seen.

It incentivizes you to pay for permanent quality-of-life improvements for your account and it has diminishing returns, once you've gradually spent some 20-30 bucks on the game's storage over, let's say 200+ hours time like I did, you don't feel nearly as pressured to spend because you can now have a fairly varied arsenal of good weapons, niche/experimental picks and stuff you're just using to level. At that point you are also in a likely position to start grinding for tradeable drops so other people can give you platinum for your efforts and use that to buy for more space or microtransaction stuff.

My friend got 300 platinum for a mod once, and if that was true, that one mod got him space for 50 new weapons, or 15 warframes

tl;dr: My issues with crippling initial storage aside, it's great Warframe really wants people to spend a Steam discount game's worth of money for convenience, and then lets go of you, which is not something I can say of enough f2p games tbh.

Kill3r7 · Oct 9, 2017

AusRoachman said:
From memory destiny 1 behaved in a similar way to warframe, guns required upgrading, the more you played the more abilities your gun unlocked.

It was a hell of a grind but i actually loved it, i think destiny Year 1 is the best it ever was. Sure i grinded for months and months , it took me 3-4 months to get my first exotic , its amazing how different it feels with so much loot being thrown at you (largely all of it under levelled/useless).

You remember correctly but to be fair, although it was unquestionably fun at the time, looking back on it now I cannot believe I wasted 100s of hours collecting resources and leveling up guns. D2 made the right qol updates. I think Bungie's failure with the crucible is a more glaring error.

GlamFM · Oct 9, 2017

Kill3r7 said:
You remember correctly but to be fair, although it was unquestionably fun at the time, looking back on it now I cannot believe I wasted 100s of hours collecting resources and leveling up guns.

I always found it to be a nice and mindless podcast activity - sort of a victory lap when you got to level up your new cool raid weapons. I did not mind it at all. I actually liked it quite a bit. Made a gun feel more special when you had to put some work into it.

Like grinding in old RPGs or getting 1.000 headshots in COD for a gold skin.

GoldenCrow · Oct 9, 2017

I think they should look at widening the builds more through the loot and modification systems. Add a small element of randomness to loot perks to diversify the types of builds people can have similarly to Diablo and Nioh but deactivate them for PvP so people can delve into builds that are at the limits of the game if they want without completely breaking the competitive aspect. Adjust the mods so it allows people to increase certain stats at the loss of others so it opens up even more variety and increases the longevity of the end game. Epic loot should still remain fixed but everything else would have more randomness to supplement the epic loot. At the moment you get a lot of loot but it mainly just gets turned into scrap and doesn't offer much incentive to experiment nor does it really do much to the gameplay.

Besides the mod system and future Warframe update with the open world which could be great if the farm opened up I can't think of much that should be taken from it.

I think there is a lot more that could be learned from Nioh, such as having the ability to have multiple loadouts assigned so players can very quickly switch between builds or limited use items that can used to bring a different play style to the game for a short period of time without having to completely change everything.

Svejk · Oct 9, 2017

Funny, because ever since I've been playing Destiny 2, I sit and think about Warframe while playing it...
Warframe is good... Warframe is damn good...
Then I start to reflect... if I really put them side to side.. why is it that I paid $60 for one, but yet, nothing for the other?? And that one i paid nothing for, runs and plays beatifully at at 60fps on my OG PS4, while the $60 game runs at 30fps and looks just like the first....Should Destiny be more a ftp game? I know there's more to it than that, but from an outside, global perspective.... just some thoughts.

Drain You · Oct 9, 2017

Do I have to roll with a group for Warframe or is friendly to playing by myself?

The à¹ÛBronx · Oct 9, 2017

I wish I found the aesthetic of Warframe enticing, as that and the TPP puts me off jumping in. That said, it consistently receives praise so it seems like it's something I should check out as my initial impressions could be gating me from something I'd enjoy. How much lore is there in the game and how [if any] is it presented? For all its faults the universe of Destiny is one that I enjoy immensely.

Svejk said:
Then I start to reflect... if I really put them side to side.. why is it that I paid $60 for one, but yet, nothing for the other?? [...] Should Destiny be more a ftp game?

Not this nonsense again. Just because a good game is F2P doesn't mean you should question why you're having to pay money for others.

Maledict · Oct 9, 2017

My problem with Warframe always goes back to the fact that any group content is purely about speed. Whenever I end up in a pick up group to do a mission youll have several members shoot off at 2000 miles an hour, and youll spend the rest of the time desperately chasing them until its complete. It feels like the range of speed mods in the game is too high, or that it matches people with extreme gear with newbies too much which creates unfunny situations.

VariantX · Oct 9, 2017

Flipyap said:
Did they seriously describe the grineer as "Warhammer 40,000-style marines?"

There are so few ship models in Destiny 2 (also too few emblems... and loot in general), if they're going to add anything cool between "expansions," it's more likely to be a reward for spending 100 silver.
It's seriously shocking how aggressively they've cut down on the number of previously available cosmetics. I don't know how the numbers actually compare, but it feels more limited than it was in vanilla Destiny.

Either they don't know Warframe, or they don't know Warhammer 40K.

Syril · Oct 9, 2017

Drain You said:
Do I have to roll with a group for Warframe or is friendly to playing by myself?

It's pretty solo friendly in general, but some of the mission types are harder to solo than others. You can enable pausing if you set your matchmaking to solo. Even if you can't be revived by a teammate you still have 4 lives for every mission.

The ๖ۜBronx;251429732 said:
I wish I found the aesthetic of Warframe enticing, as that and the TPP puts me off jumping in. That said, it consistently receives praise so it seems like it's something I should check out as my initial impressions could be gating me from something I'd enjoy. How much lore is there in the game and how [if any] is it presented? For all its faults the universe of Destiny is one that I enjoy immensely.

Practically everything is presented in some form of lore context, but it's also really easy to ignore all of it if you don't care. It presents itself dead serious most of the time.

Exploratory · Oct 9, 2017

Bungie doesn't know what the hell they're doing seemingly. D2 is a mess. I doubt Warframe is any indication of their dev path.

SkateorDi3 · Oct 9, 2017

I tried to like Warframe, but what I didn't like about it was that I could basically jump spin through the entire map without having to engage 90% of the enemies. I only did the first plane, but it really did feel that way.

Rexatality · Oct 9, 2017

Exploratory said:
Bungie doesn't know what the hell they're doing seemingly. D2 is a mess. I doubt Warframe is any indication of their dev path.

Its less of whether they know what they're doing and more of the fact that it's a matter of design philosophy on their part

Either way, they should take a hard look at Y2 and Y3 of D1 in order to improve further.

VariantX · Oct 9, 2017

SkateorDi3 said:
I tried to like Warframe, but what I didn't like about it was that I could basically jump spin through the entire map without having to engage 90% of the enemies. I only did the first plane, but it really did feel that way.

You can but you also didn't get any experience or loot drops either outside of the mission rewards. You're not always forced to kill everything in front of you because in most mission types, enemies spawn in infinitely.

TharpDaddy · Oct 9, 2017

VariantX said:
You can but you also didn't get any experience or loot drops either outside of the mission rewards. You're not always forced to kill everything in front of you because in most mission types, enemies spawn in infinitely.

Also it's fun to kill enemies. I don't feel satisfied if i've run through a mission without mowing down some grineer. My favorite is the missions like Excavation where it feels like Destiny Dynasty Warriors. Masses of enemies that will melt you fast if you don't constantly bounce and parkour around and mow them down as you pass.

SimpleCRIPPLE said:
Never really considered it, but the thought of them getting rid of raids is interesting. Instead of Bungie hoarding 3-4 encounters to drop in a raid and then we have to farm it for 4-6 months, they could just focus on dropping something like strikes more often with interesting bosses, or even complex world bosses at a more regular pace.

This sounds even better considering I'm not that fond of Leviathon, and we already know that once Prestige mode gets old, Bungie will add in challenges. We're looking at Leviathon being the core focus of PVE endgame until at least December and that's a little depressing.

I think Bungie should get some help from Blizzard. Blizzard has knocked it out of the park with Legion on constantly having something to do for the hardcore people. They don't have to drop raids. Blizzard has weekly world bosses, new raids every ~4 months, a new dungeon every big patch, a new zone with every big patch so far. It took them a long time to reach this point (large gaps in content was a complaint previous expansions) but they seem to have honed it in now, and i'd love to see Destiny reach a similar point without sacrificing a part of the game like Raids.

RalchAC · Oct 9, 2017

Cels said:
The idea of playing to get "rewarded" is so fascinating to me.

If you play destiny 2 for 15 hours in a week but at the end of that week your character is not intrinsically any better than before, do you feel like you wasted your time? Many would say yes, right? Suppose you, the player, got incrementally better at the game during those 15 hours. Again, many would still say yes. It sounds like player psychology has gotten to a point where if there is no "progression" then the player feels like they're wasting their time. Xp bars must fill up, items must unlock, player power must increase, ticks must be checked off to satisfy that craving. But for me, if I would not play the game without some kind of reward, I probably wouldnt play the game at all.

In loot based games the longer you play the longer and longer you will have to wait between upgrades. This is part of why diablo 3 has its paragon system, so even though you may not have found an upgrade during those 15 hours, your character got stronger...if just by a little bit. It sounds like warframe has a similar system.

In a lot of MMO games, mastering is about the execution and not so much about your raw skill. There is a skill ceiling, of course, but there is a limited number of times you can do something before it becomes a second nature.

The exception could be PvP, where player behavior is more unpredictable than a boss sending you adds every 15 seconds, a bunch of platforms falling into a lava pool every half a minute and the boss dealing more damage under 20% HP.

It's more like mastering a choreography than, I dunno, getting better at fencing. You obviously need to be skilled at dancing beforehand, but it's more about knowing what you have to do, when, and how to work in the best interests of your group.

Then there is DPS checks and other stuff, of course.

I haven't played the raids in Destiny, but it seems if you have a group that's decent at the game you can clear it in a week. Comparatively, I remember how in WoW only those at the very top were able to clear a raid in normal mode in the first 1-2 weeks, and then they started competing with each other for the heroic world first kills. Most of the player base, however, kept hitting walls in normal and needed months to reach the very end. See Ice Crown Citadel. A lot of more casual guilds not only needed more time and pro's guides, but actually couldn't have killed Arthas if it wasn't for the incremental buff Blizzard put that increased HP/Damage/Healing as time passed.

Raiding isn't about reaching to the end. Is about joining a group of people, learning how to play together and face a boss and ultimately feeling awesome when you manage to kill that sucker that's been giving you problems for weeks. When I raided, gear was a mean to an end.

Destiny raids don't follow this design philosophy, as far as I know at least. Getting good enough to clear the raids in a consistent manner happens earlier, the tools to create the experience I mentioned before aren't there. So either you have a nice looking carrot and a stick or people won't have nothing to do after a while.

GlamFM · Oct 9, 2017

Rexatality said:
Its less of whether they know what they're doing and more of the fact that it's a matter of design philosophy on their part

Either way, they should take a hard look at Y2 and Y3 of D1 in order to improve further.

I think they should take a look at Y1 and the game they actually wanted to make back then.

The narrative that Destiny was basically garbage until TTK fixed everything has been very hurtful to the game.

IMO TTK broke more than it fixed. TTK came in like a huge equalizer. Nothing mattered - everything was the same.

My personal theory (tinfoil hat ON) is that every big outlet rated the OG Destiny too low because they did not understand it. But when you look at it EVERY big outlet had a group of people stuck with it HARD. Polygon, IGN, GiantBomb, Kotaku - at some point they must have felt weird still playing a game they gave a 6.5 to.

TTK was the ultimate chance to finally give this game what it deserved in the first place and going forward the narrative (D1 garbage TTK great) was set.

I think Bungie drew the wrong conclusions.

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