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Ideal type of Sonic games going forward?

VeeP

Member
I had no idea why sega just doesn't do this, I thought they should've done it last gen.

Cycle every year, one year a classic Sonic Mania like game. Doesn't need to be full priced, $20-30 is fine.

Every other year full 3D Sonic game like Colors, Unleashed, etc.

Keep the shitty friends to a minimum.
 

Owari

Member
Honestly though, I don't care what they do with the series. All I know is that it needs a Chao Garden. That's the missing element I require for a 3D Sonic game to get back to the glory days. Cringe is okay too as long as I can collect animals and feed them to tiny blobs.
 

Sami+

Member
If they do continue making 3D Sonic games, I hope they're not cringey edgefests like how Forces seems to be.

Coming from someone who cares way too much about this series: Forces genuinely, from the bottom of my heart, looks like one of the worst things to come out of the whole franchise. Beaten outright only by Shadow.

Sonic 06, for all its... Sonic 06ness, still had lots of new and even interesting ideas, as well as some genuinely fantastic level design that harkens back to Adventure 1 and S3&K in the best way. Obviously the game still blew ass at the end of the day, but jesus at least it had a little more to it than looking like if an 11 year old directed a professional ROM hack of Generations.
 

gafneo

Banned
Sonic is kind of following in Nintendo's footsteps.
Sonic Colors= Galaxy, setting, power ups, candy worlds
Sonic Unleased = Twilight Princess, wolf Link
Sonic Mania = New Super Mario
Sonic Forces = Breath of the Wild, Infinity aka Wind Blight Sonic
 

Sami+

Member
Sonic is kind of following in Nintendo's footsteps.
Sonic Colors= Galaxy, setting, power ups, candy worlds
Sonic Unleased = Twilight Princess, wolf Link
Sonic Mania = New Super Mario
Sonic Forces = Breath of the Wild, Infinity aka Wind Blight Sonic

I don't see Breath of the Wild in Sonic Forces at all. That's a huge stretch. Even Mania has more in common with Mega Man 9 than NSMB.

You're definitely correct that Colors and Lost World we're heavily derivative of Mario though, yeah. Not necessarily a bad thing, it just is what it is.
 
The Classic style must stay. But there needs to be a new approach to 3D. Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't at least one of the reasons for the homing attack down to Sonic Team not being confident about jumping on objects in a 3D space? So they created an attack that essentially acts as an auto correct. That's something that needs to be removed entirely from the game design. If you need something like that to make your platformer work in 3D, then you're doing something wrong. It immediately makes it seem like there's something wrong with the controls or the camera that's going to cause issues so you have this to get around fixing those issues.

I feel they need to go back and look at the 2D games and study how they worked. See how levels were designed to allow Sonic to build up speed by simply having a smooth flow rather than having boost pads at the bottom of loops. Then look at how to implement that into a 3D space. Then just create and empty 3D space where you jump on enemies without a homing attack until you actually get it right. Then go from there.
 

Guess Who

Banned
The Classic style must stay. But there needs to be a new approach to 3D. Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't at least one of the reasons for the homing attack down to Sonic Team not being confident about jumping on objects in a 3D space? So they created an attack that essentially acts as an auto correct. That's something that needs to be removed entirely from the game design. If you need something like that to make your platformer work in 3D, then you're doing something wrong. It immediately makes it seem like there's something wrong with the controls or the camera that's going to cause issues so you have this to get around fixing those issues.

Why do you think Mario learned to punch and kick in SM64? Jumping on top of small things in 3D is harder than 2D.
 

xboxster

Member
I love classic, but I think Sonic Team could explore more of the gameplay style of either SA1 or Lost World. I haven't played every Sonic game, but Adventure really did feel like an Adventure (90's style platforming be damned, I still liked it when I played it five years ago). It certainly felt like a long game for a first casual playthrough (even without Chaos Garden). Plenty of variety in gameplay that distinguishes each character. At the ending act, it felt like forever since I last controlled Sonic.

Lost World, on the other hand, had a certain gameplay style to it that really clicked with me. I know not everyone is a fan though. :/
 

Sami+

Member
The Classic style must stay. But there needs to be a new approach to 3D. Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't at least one of the reasons for the homing attack down to Sonic Team not being confident about jumping on objects in a 3D space? So they created an attack that essentially acts as an auto correct. That's something that needs to be removed entirely from the game design. If you need something like that to make your platformer work in 3D, then you're doing something wrong. It immediately makes it seem like there's something wrong with the controls or the camera that's going to cause issues so you have this to get around fixing those issues.

I feel they need to go back and look at the 2D games and study how they worked. See how levels were designed to allow Sonic to build up speed by simply having a smooth flow rather than having boost pads at the bottom of loops. Then look at how to implement that into a 3D space. Then just create and empty 3D space where you jump on enemies without a homing attack until you actually get it right. Then go from there.

Sonic needs a homing attack to work in 3D. He's just too fast for the normal stop and bop style to work well, and that's how it should be, because slowing Sonic down that much makes him not Sonic anymore. That being said though, the homing attack we have right now fucking sucks. If they shortened its range a bit and made it actually carry Sonic's momentum forward (maybe even have really long jumps to secret areas that can only be reached if Sonic bops an enemy at top speed and flies forward with huge forward momentum) we'd be getting somewhere.
 

Owari

Member
Coming from someone who cares way too much about this series: Forces genuinely, from the bottom of my heart, looks like one of the worst things to come out of the whole franchise. Beaten outright only by Shadow.

Sonic 06, for all its... Sonic 06ness, still had lots of new and even interesting ideas, as well as some genuinely fantastic level design that harkens back to Adventure 1 and S3&K in the best way. Obviously the game still blew ass at the end of the day, but jesus at least it had a little more to it than looking like if an 11 year old directed a professional ROM hack of Generations.

I'm also a huge fan of the franchise, I've played Forces a few times and it's not exactly a bad game by any means, it's basically Generations 2. But the story itself looks really incredibly awful. I don't understand why they're making Shadow the Hedgehog 2, but I'm not a huge fan of the direction. It's like they took the negativity about Lost World and thought "man it needs to not be lighthearted and cute" when really it was just the gameplay that needed improvement. Eh. It might end up a decent game, who knows? But Mania definitely looks way better.

I really like the idea of a Generations sequel that is more open world like Adventure was. I'd take Modern/Classic Sonic/Tails/Knuckles Adventure 3 with big open areas and a Chao garden, but I guess that's too obvious for them so they made Infinicringe (aka Coldsteel the Hedgehog) and deviantart the game.
 
Give team Mania carte blanche to work on whatever classic-style games they want.

Run a public competition to see who can submit the best 3D prototype, with no restrictions on mechanics.

Fire Sonic Team.

giphy.gif
 
Release "Sonic Maker" with the assets from the Mega Drive games so that people who want more Mania games can make their own.

Could even put in a "procedurally generate random stage" button that would do the work for you.
 
I don't really care for either 2D or 3D style Sonic games, but I assume the series is trying the right things already. Forces lets people make their own OCs, which I assume is exactly what most of its contemporary audience has wanted for over a decade. If that feature's actually received well, I'd probably continue to iterate on that bit.
 

Neff

Member
colourful
good music
fun
polished
clever
fast

Lost World, on the other hand, had a certain gameplay style to it that really clicked with me. I know not everyone is a fan though. :/

I loved it. I'd take a sequel over Mania or Forces any day.
 

marmoka

Banned
Classic and boost.

Even better if they use classic Sonic in boost as well.

Whatever, classic levels in Generations where awesome. I think Sonic future in the classic 2D gameplay with 3D graphics , and retro style games.
 
The sidescrolling parts of Generations is pretty much exactly what I want from Sonic moving forward. Just make that and build on it.

It's like Donkey Kong Country Returns / Tropical Freeze. Keep the sidescrolling view, but use 3D visuals to add depth and dynamic visuals. Enabling the camera to pan and tilt depending on the situation.
 

JonCha

Member
I'd rather the Boost games not split their focus on Classic levels & let the Mania-like games handle those.

Honestly, I'd like to see Sonic Team refine their ideas from Lost World like how Colors was a refinement of the ideas from Unleashed's daytime levels.

Yeah I'd agree with this: always thought they should have done a Colours 2. They did a lot right with that game and honestly, Forces looks like a step back from that and Generations.

Mania looks incredible so they have to do a second one with that team.
 
Classic and Adventure have very different audiences and I don't think choosing one and expecting the other part of the fanbase to be happy with that is ever going to be realistic.
What they're doing in having one of each seems smart and is probably the best path forward.
 
If they could sort out the camera of an Adventure 2 Sonic/Shadow stage type game, I'd be all for that.

They had the right idea with that, having multiple paths to the goal etc., but the camera would screw you over so bad times.

I'd like them to keep a variety of gameplay styles, because even if Mania ends up being the best 2D Sonic game to date, people will start getting fed up of them if they keep working on that type of thing. Hell, people were bored and annoyed by the idea of a another DKC by Retro after Returns.
 

KidB

Member
I'd like to see a more focused take on the Adventure formula. I just want to see what '06 would've been like if it had the the polish and the manpower behind it that it should've had. I like the boost gameplay but I don't think it has much more to offer (Forces doesn't look good at all).
 

Mark1

Member
It's interesting to see many here liking multiple aspects of how Sonic has been portrayed over the years. Granted the majority here prefer classic gameplay (and can see why, some easily stood up against Mario's finest 2D entries) but still.

This is why I don't have a problem with games like Generations and Forces existing. But with the existence of Mania let Sonic Team focus on the areas they know best.
 

Hutchie

Member
Adventure type, fix camera and controls, make it sonic only with friends as mini games (love me some bug cat fishing). Also graphical make it cartoon style like sonic cd intro and ill buy again. The generation games with sega living off classic levels shows hat they have no clue how to make a decent sonic but modders do
 

Zalman

Member
Both Classic and Boost should continue.

When I say Boost I mean a full game based on that. Classic Sonic should stay away from the 3D games. A new take on the 3D formula would be nice too, but I don't have faith in Sonic Team to come up with something good.
 

Chao

Member
Advance series were never classic, classic Sonic games end with 3&k, there's no debate about it.

If you remove them from there, I'd choose classic any day.
 

PaulloDEC

Member
For 2D games, I say just let the Mania team handle it.

For 3D games, find a competent developer and instruct them to go all the way back to the drawing board. All the way.
 

cireza

Member
I am going to wait until I played both Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces. Not a fan of the "boost" games, but maybe that Forces will help ?

However, I had a lot of fun with the 3D adventure ones, especially Sonic Adv 1 and Sonic 2006.

And of course, classic 2D Sonic.

Colours and Lost World were a bit different, but I loved them both.

So the answer does not look that simple :)
 

Dunkley

Member
I think having Classic and Boost side by side is the best type going forward.

The interesting thing about Sonic is how many identity changes the franchise went through, it's almost kind of like Final Fantasy. The fanbase is very fragmented on what makes a Sonic game a Sonic game to them, and yes that even counts in people who started playing around the Shadow The Hedgehog era and want edgy plot, and there will be vocal fans too who liked Colors/Lost World the most and want that cartoony lightheartedness in due time.

With that considered, I think the Boost formula appeals to most parts of the fanbase that liked the more recent games, while Classic ala Mania does its' best to court fans from the Genesis days.

While it's impossible to please anyone until SEGA pretty much just makes a direct sequel to every single Sonic game they released so like for example, the Adventure fans get their Chao gardens, or even people like the SatAM fans gets a game about their universe, I'd say the way they're approaching it with Forces and Mania in 2017 probably is the smartest as it seems to cover the most of the fanbase without spreading their talent too thin, and I'd say that is good enough.
 

MrBadger

Member
I think Lost World had the right idea with the parkour, wall running, combo chains and slightly slower pace. But Sonic is too stop-and-start. He has a little pause and slows down or stops moving whenever he does anything in Lost World, which makes the whole game feel awkward. A game like that needs flow, so I dunno if Sonic Team are capable of making it work.

On the Mania side of things, I kind of want two classic styled Sonic games from Taxman's crew, and after that I think they should make a new IP. Not like Freedom Planet, but something like Ristar - something that feels like it could have come from mid-90's Sega in a parallel dimension where 2D wasn't taboo. I believe this team has what it takes
 
Forces is almost everything I don't want out of Sonic.

But if they have to keep the current boosting-through-narrow-hallways gameplay (not a fan) - at least just focus on that and develop it further. No more breaking shit up with filler characters. Especially since we now have the team behind Mania.

Colors is the only one that got it right, along with naturally having more levels for Modern Sonic, better bosses and a gimmick that actually adds to the experience.

And keep the tone light, have a small cast, and don't have them talk too much. (Except Eggman, he never gets old.) A shame Forces fucked all that up.

---

lol With that grumpy rant out of the way, I just realistically want a Mania that has nothing but all new zones.

Studiopolis and Mirage Saloon still look far more interesting than the zones they're revisiting. (Same with the new music vs the remixes.)
 
I'd take good games in any of them.

However that basically scratches out the adventure style entirely for me, and whether each attempt at boost sonic makes a good boost game seems to be entirely down to dumb luck so... I'm left with whatever Christian Whitehead and co end up doing.
 

Raitaro

Member
First and foremost they should keep going with Mania style games with the same dev team, perhaps while making them gradually more graphically complex as if they are releasing them on gradually more complex retro consoles. I'd happily take one every 2 years or so.

As for the 3D games: I'd say, go back to the drawing board after Forces and completely reboot them. They should look closely at ShayMay's third Sonic Spitball video and create a new momentum based movement system where Sonic is no longer limited to going fast in semi-automated on-rails sections but instead can now freely navigate the environment and use it to gain speed and momentum (akin to what you'd see in a skateboarding game like Tony Hawk or even Jet Set Radio).

People often say Sonic was never meant to work in 3D but I think he would be perfect for 3D if they double down on his movement options and his interaction with the environment instead of on characters, spectacular set pieces and on-rails fast sections that offer little to no control depth (imo).

Oh, and no more humans beyond Eggman in either 2D or 3D Sonic games please. Give me natural landscapes, mysterious ruins, dazzling casinos and cities and ominous industrial zones but keep it unclear if humans live there or not, just like in the old games.

Release "Sonic Maker" with the assets from the Mega Drive games so that people who want more Mania games can make their own.

Could even put in a "procedurally generate random stage" button that would do the work for you.

Yes, I'd like to see this happen as well now that you mention it. Just let me create levels in all those great looking pixellated landcapes. Ideally this would include Sonic CD as well and an option to add time travel to switch between zones without exiting one.
 

Sami+

Member
I don't really care for either 2D or 3D style Sonic games, but I assume the series is trying the right things already. Forces lets people make their own OCs, which I assume is exactly what most of its contemporary audience has wanted for over a decade. If that feature's actually received well, I'd probably continue to iterate on that bit.

I see this sentiment a lot, and although I understand it, I really don't think it's true. I was super active on the official SEGA Forums from when I was about 11-13 years old, then super active on The Sonic Stadium from when I was about 14-19, before I started hanging out more on GAF. I got my start on video game forums in general by lurking on the Sonic 06 GameFAQs board when I was 10 years old or so. I'm 21 now for perspective. I'm probably not in tune with the community anymore and only really keep up with friends and the news, but I definitely was for many years.

In all that time, I've never seen anyone ask for a character creator in one of these games. Never. The most common requests were always Sonic Adventure 3, a real Sonic 4 (which we now have in Mania), and solo-Sonic games without Werehog/sword like gimmicks. Always. In the crowds I was familiar with, the DeviantArt Sonic/furry community were never the majority, but that's just my perspective. I wouldn't even say I like any of those communities much anymore, but I can say from my own experience that there's very little overlap with the furry crowd and the main Sonic fanbase.
 
Both. Mania-Style 2D Sonic and Boost/3D/2D-formula with improved camera but way less gimmicks. So two series, Modern and Pixel, which was SEGA's plan anyway. Well, except that Mania steps in for Boom.

I really hope the Boomverse will be dead and buried soon. In its entirety.
 

Ogodei

Member
Lost World. Parkour like the old Sonic CD intro video (and realized in a tiny way in Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog), plus a run button instead of a boost button. Original stages with a 16-bit aesthetic. 2D/3D hybrid, Super Sonic in the main game possible.
 

Raitaro

Member
I see this sentiment a lot, and although I understand it, I really don't think it's true. I was super active on the official SEGA Forums from when I was about 11-13 years old, then super active on The Sonic Stadium from when I was about 14-19, before I started hanging out more on GAF. I got my start on video game forums in general by lurking on the Sonic 06 GameFAQs board when I was 10 years old or so. I'm 21 now for perspective. I'm probably not in tune with the community anymore and only really keep up with friends and the news, but I definitely was for many years.

In all that time, I've never seen anyone ask for a character creator in one of these games. Never. The most common requests were always Sonic Adventure 3, a real Sonic 4 (which we now have in Mania), and solo-Sonic games without Werehog/sword like gimmicks. Always. In the crowds I was familiar with, the DeviantArt Sonic/furry community were never the majority, but that's just my perspective. I wouldn't even say I like any of those communities much anymore, but I can say from my own experience that there's very little overlap with the furry crowd and the main Sonic fanbase.

This would confirm what I've always felt myself.

To me, the classic Sonic games were never about the characters (beyond having cool looking main characters to control and base the marketing campaign on) but all the more about the zones, i.e. the fantastic looking, often mysterious or intimidating natural and artificial environments and their crazy obstacles. These were always the real stars of these games in my eyes, especially with things like parallax scolling being implemented so effectively to offer even more spectacular and dynamic vistas etc.

It seems Sega has gradually forgotten about that since the early 3D iterations where they started focusing more and more on the characters instead (leading to more and more of them instead of less that have more ways to navigate the environments). This latest game and its character editor, while cool on paper, might be the latest symbol of this change in focus because it creates an even bigger emphasis on (customizing) the characters instead of the game world.
 

Shads

Member
Classic.

I did like Sonic Generations though, so if they make more Boost games like that, then I'd be okay with it.

I'm having a hard time deciding whether Sonic Forces is any good, but I'll wait for better impressions when the full game comes out. But Sonic Mania... just take my money.
 

muteki

Member
While I loved the early Adventure games and I think they could be great if given the budget and ambition necessary, I doubt this will ever be feasible with the fanbase being as big as it is.

So that being said, Classic style is really the only viable way going forward.

I still fail to understand however, if you are making a game with generations-style 2.5D stages, why it is seemingly so impossible for it to feel like the old games.
 

nbnt

is responsible for the well-being of this island.
Classic and Boost types should both exist going forward, I love both styles.

Another Adventure would be hella nice but we all know it ain't gonna happen at this point. I also would love to see another Advance/Rush game but that also won't happen. :(
 

dafodeu

Member
Sonic needs to go fast fast fast. Games like Sonic Boom Shattered Crystal with all the backtracking is not what Sonic is about. Also, holding a button down to make sonic run like in the Sonic Boom games is ridiculous. Sonic is fast no matter what, let him run and the game will be good.

Spinoff games are fine, Mario has those. I'd be cool with Bioware making Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood 2. Also, Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed was incredible so Yes to more of that.
 

Berordn

Member
Give team Mania carte blanche to work on whatever classic-style games they want.

Run a public competition to see who can submit the best 3D prototype, with no restrictions on mechanics.

Fire Sonic Team.

But who will make Puyo Puyo!?
 
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