Cleveland State University =/= USA.
17,261 students =/= 330,000,000 citizens
Many Universities handle this type of bullshit effectively. CSU choosing to throw their hands up like utter cowards is not the norm.
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Fliers telling LGBTQ students to kill themselves is fine according to Cleveland Uni
- Thread starter Maximo
- Start date
Cleveland State University =/= USA.
17,261 students =/= 330,000,000 citizens
Many Universities handle this type of bullshit effectively. CSU choosing to throw their hands up like utter cowards is not the norm.
WonkyPanda
Member
Im going to have to generally disagree with you here. A good case on point here is Papish: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/410/667.html
If you want the TLDR, universities have typically been stomped when their codes of conduct are put up against the 1A
Edit: heres a sexual harassment policy being struck down in an appellate court: https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=500746032283305681&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr
Because that wasn't actually ever a legal standard - but most folks who don't understand 1A protection (well, at least towards things they don't like) don't pay attention to that point.
WonkyPanda
Member
Unless these flyers actually lead and Incite violence (E.g. a riot), I think the president is in a tough spot.
If CSU were private it would be different, but you're right that it is a public university, which makes it more difficult. Even so, it's a murky area legally. Oklahoma State expelled students over hate speech a few years ago.
http://schmidtlawservices.com/expelled-for-hate-speech-a-constitutional-question/
WonkyPanda
Member
Whats really interesting is the Michelle Carter case, which the ACLU has come out against as an infringement on the 1A: https://www.boston.com/news/local-n...chelle-carter-conviction-imperils-free-speech
All eyes on those appeals because that decision could impact scenarios like this one.
pretty much. They would be extremely hard pressed (re: borderline impossible) to win this fight in court as a state university.
timetokill
Banned
Honestly, in this case it doesn't matter.
The University should act based on its code of conduct and make the cowards that put up these flyers come out of the shadows to defend their bullshit in court.
Could have fooled me
With the footage from Charlottesville showing cops having to stand between Klansmen and the counter protestors as they yell "fuck you faggots"
It seems that "free speech" is prioritized so much in America, it doesn't matter what the fuck you have to say.
As long as no one punches each other, everything is free game.
LiquidSword
Member
That second statement...wow. Yeah dude I can feel your personal outrage so much. Thats why you barely mention it and then start immediately talking about free speech. Very obvious where this guys priorities are.
Astral Dog
Member
lol fuck you ronald Bergman,
Just to underscore how bad the president's responses are, look at the response when an nearly identical poster was put up in Houston back in May. It really isn't that hard to craft a compassionate message.
https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2017/05/flier-bus-stop-houston-encourages-lgbtq-people-commit-suicide/
Also worth noting is that atm it does not appear to be known who posted it so the legal issues aren't relevant as there is no one to potentially press charges against, and because it was not an approved flier it was not supposed to be posted there anyway, so all the university president had to do was be compassionate
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/10/flyer_at_cleveland_state_unive.html
https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2017/05/flier-bus-stop-houston-encourages-lgbtq-people-commit-suicide/
Also worth noting is that atm it does not appear to be known who posted it so the legal issues aren't relevant as there is no one to potentially press charges against, and because it was not an approved flier it was not supposed to be posted there anyway, so all the university president had to do was be compassionate
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/10/flyer_at_cleveland_state_unive.html
Sure, if you're willing to pay some extra taxes to cover the money the university will have to pay out in court plus lawyers fees every time they lose one of these cases.
Mind you - it very well could be someone outside the university, which then they might be able to go after for trespassing and whatever else they can come up with.
Yep; and as a marginalized minority, I'm pretty OK with this. Because once speech starts getting restricted, I get the feeling the group that has the president on their side will fare much better than the minority group who doesn't.
It absolutely doesn't say that. It says "follow". Its a command. The rest of the poster is telling them what they're supposed to follow.
Whether courts are dumb enough to not be allowed to recognized that is a different question but its not hinting anything, its stating it.
Imagine if I wrote a text to someone saying "I'm on a ✈". Clearly that says I'm on a plane. This isn't any more veiled
brickarts295
Member
Someone made a graffiti on a wall telling gays and blacks to kill themselves in my Cal State. It was crazy because our college is one of our most diverse in the state. Anyways, our President handled it like a boss, wall was painted within hours and we got a very angry and inspiring letter from her about doing everything in her power to stop this behavior.
So I'm kinda shocked about this news, specially since they are fliers
So I'm kinda shocked about this news, specially since they are fliers
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Lemme see this university just try this "freedom of speech/civil discourse" line if the flyer targeted black students instead and used racial slurs. It'd be equally disgusting and repulsive, but something tells me faculty would have enough sense to react differently.
Edit: Sorry if that sounds like I'm dragging other minorities into this in an uncalled manner. Absolutely not trying to blame one minority or measure one group's struggle to another. Just that sometimes, I think if someone acts in an out of line manner, hypothetically applying the scenario to another group acts as a reality check.
Edit: Sorry if that sounds like I'm dragging other minorities into this in an uncalled manner. Absolutely not trying to blame one minority or measure one group's struggle to another. Just that sometimes, I think if someone acts in an out of line manner, hypothetically applying the scenario to another group acts as a reality check.
timetokill
Banned
I fully expect it's somebody from outside the university, which would make it pretty easy to shut down. If it's not, well, let's all see who it is so we can further this "civil dialogue" face-to-face.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
People are wearing 'deplorable' as a badge of honor. The world has gone insane.
Monkeyball
Banned
Well those idiots have the president on their side..
spyroflame0487
Member
Sounds like there were a lot of press and news reporters there and police around campus. This isn't gonna be the end of this today.
Squirrel Killer
Member
Since the flyers are advocating self-harm, especially to a demographic that the flyers claim are predisposed to commit self-harm, there is nothing to stop a member of the targeted group from committing the lawless action at the first opportunity.
Crimsonclaw111
Member
I'll have you know that here at Cal Poly Pomona that shit wouldn't fly.
Wouldn't be surprised. I'm starting to wonder if there isn't at least a group of folks whose goal is to do stuff like this to provoke both sides into jumping into their pre-established conclusions and cause chaos.
Never change the law in a way that would solve problems, because minorities will always be the ones they enforce it on the hardest. It's true law enforcement does that; however, going by your argument, the US should not change a single law going forward. Do you really think that's the way to a better future?
mordecaii83
Member
I either want to see a clarification on the 1st amendment by the courts or a new amendment that specifically does NOT protect hate speech. I'm getting really tired of people threatening others with zero consequences.
When it comes to laws about expression, you have to be super careful about this because most civil rights movements were deeply unpopular at the start, and would have been quashed by any "moral" free speech laws. One only needs to go over to Europe to see how this ends up working in actual practice.
I'll refer to Popehat
https://www.popehat.com/2015/10/06/this-royal-throne-of-feels-this-sheltered-isle-this-england/
I know you mean no harm, but please don't generalize Europe like that. Your example is England, so I will raise you Germany. Our government has made a conscious effort to stomp hate speech for a long time now, recently threatening Facebook and Twitter with charges should they fail to better control posts made on their platforms. Social media aside, hate speech can net you up to five years in prison over here. This is law by §130.
And here's the catch: §130 does explicitly not apply to hate speech against the majority of our country. Now, we don't think in race here first and foremost, so by majority that means Germans of course, but I do think law extensions like that can go a long way. Likewise, an American version of this law should absolutely require an extension in the same vein.
Sabercrusader
Member
You know, if the LGBT and POC got together and made a similar flier telling racists and bigots to kill themselves, I wonder how fast it would be taken down?
Don't answer.
I already know.
This is just embarassing.
Don't answer.
I already know.
This is just embarassing.
ronaldthump
Member
Old white man.
that's what I thought when I saw the email
holy crap. hate speech like this is allowed in cleveland uni? They need a protest.
that's what I thought when I saw the email
holy crap. hate speech like this is allowed in cleveland uni? They need a protest.
One could make posters about how many Nazis were killed by Americans, and just make up stats (why not), and have lots of pictures of guns etc.
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
What drives me insane is that there are parents out there of some of the kids that put this shit together who - if confronted with the fact that their little shit was a useless bigot fuck - would just "Thas mah boi!!" and waddle themselves back into the living room for some good ol fox news or whatever the fuck...
I cannot imagine the fucking shalacking i would give my kid in 12ish years if i found out she was involved with any kind of bullshit like this.
I cannot imagine the fucking shalacking i would give my kid in 12ish years if i found out she was involved with any kind of bullshit like this.
My apologies, I was over-generalizing by using Europe in that scenario.
Germany brings up the problem of "how useful is this at combating hate" - at least if the recent elections are any indication. Which is kind of where this leads to - in the US, after 9/11, the public gave up privacy rights for "safety" from terrorism - and then the entire NSA / Wikileaks / Snowden thing was the result of it. No one can actually say if we were ever made safer from those changes. I fear that giving up speech rights for a nebulous concept of "reducing hate" when there doesn't seem to be much evidence that it does so. Or on a broader level - in my lifetime, the US has generally taken notoriously shallow and superficial solutions to make it look like there are less problems rather than dealing with the problems (see schools post Columbine, security post 9/11, etc). This appears to be a similar solution - we don't want it to "look" bad, rather than "why is it rising". On top of that, as someone who grew up as a minority in a locally conservative area (and has family who still lives there); the application of such exceptions would be almost certainly used against my family. I think a lot of these anti-speech arguments make sense if you live somewhere that the local government and population is fairly liberal, and so you believe it will get used against the bad people. It does not make as much sense to me if you are somewhere that you are the minority ideology wise.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/06/germany-failing-to-tackle-rise-in-hate-crime/
EDIT: This is why I think Trump can go fuck himself when it comes to the NFL players kneeling. Conservatives can't complain about private universities "stifling free speech" and then turn around and bitch about NFL players kneeling.
SoulUnison
Banned
How can you say it's not, though?
The title of the poster is basically straight-up saying "kill yourselves," and the image depicted has an undercurrent of "...or we'll do it for you."
spyroflame0487
Member
Thought it was necessary to update what's been happening as best I can tell for those not in the area here and have become a little invested in this story.
I believe yesterday new signs from the LGBTQ+ Clubs on campus started appearing more.
(I'll try to grab pics of those here in a sec). There appeared to be some more rallies in the quad which led to students marching to President Berkman's office (he wasn't there of course)
Tonight, CSU put out a press release/open letter (you can read that here) which seems to indicate a much more sincere response from those in charge and some of the other higher ups. Looks like CSU is planning on creating more programs and an advistory committee to address this stuff in the future so another PR nightmare doesn't happen...which is good and really shouldn't have happened in the first place if Berkman would have shown some humanity.
I believe yesterday new signs from the LGBTQ+ Clubs on campus started appearing more.
(I'll try to grab pics of those here in a sec). There appeared to be some more rallies in the quad which led to students marching to President Berkman's office (he wasn't there of course)
Tonight, CSU put out a press release/open letter (you can read that here) which seems to indicate a much more sincere response from those in charge and some of the other higher ups. Looks like CSU is planning on creating more programs and an advistory committee to address this stuff in the future so another PR nightmare doesn't happen...which is good and really shouldn't have happened in the first place if Berkman would have shown some humanity.
this response says "The flyers were immediately removed." doesn't seem like it was that hard "prevent these messages from being disseminated" mr president
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