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F'DUPTON 3: Back in the Tub with 5.0/5.5/6/7/several Inches of RAM-Flavoured Water

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Alebrije

Member
What are you basing that on?

I think he says it based on what has been happening on las generations , difference in multiplataforms were very low or unnoticieable , specially on the las one.

Also we do not have a predominant company that controls the market, so developers do not need to give that extra effort to its console...

So to Konami , Capcom , EA , will be the same if Sony gives them 5-6-7 gb ram , multiports PS4-XBONE will look similar.
 

magawolaz

Member
Yes, we talked privately already. Take from that what you will.
ngODnFF.gif
 

nib95

Banned
Umm no, 1920 x 1080 is 1920 x 1080 pixels whether displayed interlaced or progressively, also the above calculations are a fallacy because XBO and PS4 memory cannot be compared 1:1. XBO architecture relies on a set of "Move Engines" and 32MB of ESRAM to feed the bandwidth pipeline. Anandtech has an article that explains how 32MB is more than enough to fit a 1080p framebuffer, probably a better source for this kind of information than from a poster who already admitted to purposely leaving out that very important tidbit.

Doesn't matter. Those things help to alleviate the bandwidth issues from DDR3, not get rid of them altogether. It does not work how you think it does. Move Engines and Esram can help fill in some of the gaps, but the main bulk of the ram, the 8gb of ddr3 is always going to be limited by its bandwidth, and none of the other elements will change that. You will not be able to get more ram out of the ddr3 than my figures above state. That's based on the absolute max memory bandwidth figure for the ram.
 

Chumpion

Member
DISAPPOINTED! This must have been some kind of executive level decision, "delaying commitment" to retain "strategic flexibility". To give those useless fuckers something to ponder between lunch and golf.

The honeymoon is over. Mr. Tretton, your balls are no longer welcome in my mouth.
 

lemonade

Member
I just can't grasp why a gaming console needs so much RAM?
I'm old and maybe stuck in my ways, but I am becoming irritated by all these consoles trying to be anything but a dedicated gamng console. I really hope someone steps in *cough*valve*cough* and offers a real device dediicated strictly for gaming. Maybe I'm alone, but I already have a PCS360, smartphone and tablet, I don't need another all-in-one device. I do need what I don't have, and that's an next gen console dedicated only to gaming.

Preach it!
 

KidBeta

Junior Member
Well, the 0.5GB of virtual memory is a swap file that sits on the HDD, so it's not random access memory space available to games. So effectively both consoles offer 5GB RAM to devs, which I think they're OK with since it makes multiplatform development straightforward without having to worry what to add on one platform or cut on the other. Pretty cool all things considered, I hope both MS and Sony make good use of the 3GB they reserved for their own purposes, ie. features that will make it really hard to go back to the last generation.

The swap file could be on the HDD but presented as memory through the virtual memory interface, when its accessed it gets swapped back into memory again and so forth. the swap would be faster then reading from the file system anyway so it has some use.
 

daveo42

Banned
It is a lot of space for an OS, but both Sony and Microsoft do indeed need to play it smart for future updates, etc. Again, more than enough is left for gaming on both systems, but Sony still has the edge with GDDR5. In which case, we are really back to where we started.

Yeah, I'm thinking that is probably more than enough too. I was really on board with the 7GB for games bandwagon, but if it means that Sony will be able to implement whatever the next big thing is, then I'm cool with it. Same for Microsoft.

Playing it safe does seem like the smart option and at the same time, the OS footprint will fall and, for both systems I would hope, more RAM will made available to devs.
 

i-Lo

Member
It's pointless at this point to speculate what Sony will be adding to their OS3-4 years down the line. They're probably just being cautious. The lack of memory reserved for the OS prevented them from doing cross-game chat, for example, this gen. Why given devs more than they need and have no room to add more OS-level functionalities?

While speculating can be both useless and useful, it is what it is. One thing I'd point out is that there are many folks who keep citing cross-game chat as an example. Lest we forget, MS did that with an OS that was 32MB in size. Also, as aforementioned, what makes others and myself even more curious about the size being what is it is despite not having either kinect 2 or cable tv related functionalities.

So yea, time is the only thing that separates us from greater knowledge about the hardware and that leaves us to speculate.
 

Bad_Boy

time to take my meds
all the "still better than xbox one" talk is getting to me too. with no intentions of getting an xbox one, it just feels like a slight downgrade on the upgrade of specs.

3gb to OS.... bad form sony.
 
I think he says it based on what has been happening on las generations , difference in multiplataforms were very low or unnoticieable , specially on the las one.

Also we do not have a predominant company that controls the market, so developers do not need to give that extra effort to its console...

So to Konami , Capcom , EA , will be the same if Sony gives them 5-6-7 gb ram , multiports PS4-XBONE will look similar.

We both know why it's different this coming generation. And the poster said the past generations - so several of them.
 

McDougles

Member
DISAPPOINTED! This must have been some kind of executive level decision, "delaying commitment" to retain "strategic flexibility". To give those useless fuckers something to ponder between lunch and golf.

The honeymoon is over. Mr. Tretton, your balls are no longer welcome in my mouth.

okaywtfreaction.gif
 
I really wouldn't try to dive down into "data per frame". It's usually misleading given the huge variance that can happen between frames and will probably just confuse most.
 

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
all the "still better than xbox one" talk is getting to me too. with no intentions of getting an xbox one, it just feels like a slight downgrade on the upgrade of specs.

3gb to OS.... bad form sony.

Bad form is on you brother. You do not have a clue on how these platforms work. You are better off trying to make sense of this than being a diva with your type of attention seeking post.

I can overreact too, as you can see.
 
Still 3GB seems like quite a big chunk of the total which will be (probably) used for non gaming functions.

how do you figure this, when in the history of OS has Sony took away from main memory? , they added all those features to the PS3 XMB and decreased the overall RAM usage, you can't discount obvious optimization
 
You would be insane to not use RAM for atleast some level of video buffering if you wrote straight to the HDD your performance would tank

Why use such a chunk of expensive, high performance RAM for this? If writing to the disk would hurt performance (even though xbox and my cable dvr do it this way) why not throw in 4gbs of flash memory for this feature? I can get one for$6 at Wal-Mart, Sony could probably do it for thirty cents.
 

MoneyHats

Banned
It has dedicated video encoding and decoding nearly all modern AMD GPU's do

The point im getting at is if you make your video buffer to small you end up thrashing the HDD and thats bad.




I think we can safely rule out multi decade old technology :)

Random Access Memory?
 

Sid

Member
how do you figure this, when in the history of OS has Sony took away from main memory? , they added all those features to the PS3 XMB and decreased the overall RAM usage, you can't discount obvious optimization
Sony using the full 3GB reserve for the OS remains a possibility,I don't intend to discount the OS optimisation either.
 

szaromir

Banned
Doesn't matter. Those things help to alleviate the bandwidth issues from DDR3, not get rid of them altogether. It does not work how you think it does. Move Engines and Esram can help fill in some of the gaps, but the main bulk of the ram, the 8gb of ddr3 is always going to be limited by its bandwidth, and none of the other elements will change that. You will not be able to get more ram out of the ddr3 than my figures above state. That's based on the absolute max memory bandwidth figure for the ram.
But when you ESRAM you do not need to have as much bandwidth to the main memory when you don't have it. That's why 1:1 comparisons are silly, you can't pretend Xbone does not have that instant access memory pool that assists with framebuffer operations whereas on PS4 you need calls to the main memory. The overall memory setup is still slower, though I'm not sure it needs to be - the GPU has only 0.67 as many shader nits and half as many ROPs. Overall Xbone is clearly a more limited platform, but it should ot excuse making silly comparisons that make it appear 0.3 as fast lol.
 
While speculating can be both useless and useful, it is what it is. One thing I'd point out is that there are many folks who keep citing cross-game chat as an example. Lest we forget, MS did that with an OS that was 32MB in size. Also, as aforementioned, what makes others and myself even more curious about the size being what is it is despite not having either kinect 2 or cable tv related functionalities.

So yea, time is the only thing that separates us from greater knowledge about the hardware and that leaves us to speculate.

How much RAM the 360 OS uses is irrelevant. The point is that it's better to have some RAM available for when you want to add new features later.

And you can speculate but that didn't seem like thr case in your earlier posts.
 

beast786

Member
Wasn't there an article recently about a new discovery with eSRAM that it was twice as fast on XB1 and now downgrade of just 4.5 for ps4. According to DF it's seem 180 on memory between the two
 

c0de

Member
The swap file could be on the HDD but presented as memory through the virtual memory interface, when its accessed it gets swapped back into memory again and so forth. the swap would be faster then reading from the file system anyway so it has some use.

I think it's common swap-space like in every other Unix. And I don't see a problem with it.
 

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
It will be glazed over, just as all the other insider posts have been.

It almost seems like a group of people are trying to change the narrative. Funny that.

Well, what can you say, this is true.

Ignorance is bliss sometimes.

To a guy like Satchel, thanks for the rational discussion. That's how it should be done.

Not some knee jerk and uninformed baseless remark which comes from a place which doesn't bemoan any kind of unbiased nature.
 

DryvBy

Member
So with what's given right now, we can produce this in-game:

People, quit crying. Most of you have no idea what you're talking about. Quit reading into things when even a year from now, more memory can be unlocked for devs. Did you expect devs to come out of the box using 7GB? Seriously, internet. It's gonna be okay.
 
Should, but most likely wont, and if they do, very minimal differences (of course favoring the PS4)

Based on the raw spec differences, there's nothing that suggests there will be a minimal difference in terms of performance. That isn't to say there will be an enormous difference either, but 'minimal' doesn't quite explain the GPU difference that these machines have.
 

c0de

Member
I am looking forward on further details on how many cores are available to devs ;) More dramas? I hope so, it's too funny in these threads :D
 

Orca

Member
YLet me restate once more since no one cares to dispute it, how are devs ok with this but some Gaffers not? What would you like devs to use the space they don't quite know what to do with yet? Ragdoll physics on nose hairs? Real time fart particle simulation? That last bit is about as ridiculous as this issue being made into something.

To be fair, devs are rarely unhappy about the specs of new systems before they launch. Then it's all glowing praise for new power and new possibilities. It's in the year before the new systems launch that they start lamenting the slow beasts they've been saddled with for the past X years and the limits they impose on what they'd like to make...and how they're excited about those new machines to come.
 

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
So what then is taking up all the memory? Obviously some is being partitioned for future use.

Us non-devs simply don't know. I'm perplexed as well. Long gone are the days when you'd insert a cartridge and just switch the game on.

Nowadays folks seem to require services. They want to chat to their friends online whilst they play games and they want to record the lot to upload it to social media sites (for some reason).

They also want to watch netflix at the same time as playing games and be able to switch instantly between them whilst still talking to their friends whilst still recording the game whilst still uploading to social media sites.

Add in a bit of background OS update loading, shop offer notifications, avatars, messaging from your other friends, achievements medals and other meta pats on the back and I can see how the OS could start to bloat a bit.
 

androvsky

Member
You are indeed correct, based on bandwidth figures, the amount of ram available to each console is as follows.

---

Xbox One | 8GB DDR3 at 68GB/s (5GB available to devs)

At 60fps the maximum memory available per frame is 1.133GB
At 30fps the maximum memory available per frame is 2.266GB


PS4 | 8GB GDDR5 at 176GB/s (5.5GB available to devs) 512mb of that swap space, paged to the HDD.

At 60fps the maximum memory available per frame is 2.933GB
At 30fps the maximum memory available per frame is 5.866GB

---

This is the actual maximum amount of memory available to each console irrespective of what amount the OS uses up.


If people are wondering why the figures at they are, the bandwidth amounts dictate the maximum amount of ram available per second. So 68GB/s means 68GB maximum memory access per second. If a game is 30fps it means there are 30 frames rendered per one second. So you just divide 68 (the amount of ram bandwidth and thus available ram per second) by 30 (in this example the number of frames being rendered in per second).
This seems like a bad argument when talking about anything other than tech demos. It assumes that the only things in memory will be seen by the in-game virtual camera, so that if you turn your view to look at an object with textures or geometry that wasn't in the original view, you'll have to stream in from the hard drive. I'm pretty sure that even the most aggressive streaming engines save some memory for off-camera content (and little things like audio), at least at a low level of detail so there's something to show while the hard drive catches up. In short, games need memory beyond what's on screen.

On the other hand, that argument also implies the GPU is doing nothing but texturing for the entire frame, since shaders aren't as bandwidth dependent. But if the GPU is just texturing objects for the entire time the frame is being rendered, that doesn't leave any time to apply shaders after the GPU is done; since many shaders depend on a textured object for color data, those shaders can't run before the object is rendered. So I doubt any modern game would be able all of that memory per frame anyway.
 

casmith07

Member
Okay, I'm just gonna check in here to see if I'm understanding this correctly before I make an ass of myself -

There's 8GB total, as we've always known, and 4.5 - 5 GB of it is dedicated to gaming, whereas the other 3GB is sealed off, and we don't know for what. Most likely the OS takes up about 1GB or 2GB, and the remaining space is unused, but still sealed off to prevent being unable to improve the OS later down the line. If they end up using it, then we can expect much more intensive OS features, and if not, it'll go to the devs as time goes by.

Correct?

No. None of that information is confirmed except that there is 8GB GDDR5 onboard RAM.

Everything else is pure speculation.
 

pestul

Member
Wasn't there an article recently about a new discovery with eSRAM that it was twice as fast on XB1 and now downgrade of just 4.5 for ps4. According to DF it's seem 180 on memory between the two

It was more of a fake 'eureka' moment about the eSRAM than anything. It was already known. I believe it was something about how it could read/write at the same time at the same bandwidth.. but it was just BS marketing.
 
So with what's given right now, we can produce this in-game:


People, quit crying. Most of you have no idea what you're talking about. Quit reading into things when even a year from now, more memory can be unlocked for devs. Did you expect devs to come out of the box using 7GB? Seriously, internet. It's gonna be okay.

3 people in a box. Shown one at a time. The future is now.
 
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