kisaya said:

I mean if I were in her place I would be more emotional that I have to branch out of my family. But really if she does want to get away from them then she has nothing to worry about if she leaves. If she does, call the police.

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OttomanScribe said:

Never tried the Coconut oil thing. I don't really use anything in my beard, it is usually pretty clean though I might try that, I love the smell of coconuts!

I get a decent trim and shave (neck/cheeks) at a barber once every month or so. Other wise I keep my cheeks and neck shaved and my moustache trimmed to a non-wahhabi length


Walaykum Salaam Wa Rahmetullah

What madhab are you from, as that will answer the question.

In the Shafi'i madhab, as khamr (wine) is najas (impure), anything that was in the form of a solution with wine or alcohol, is also najas. This means that even if the alcohol has been 'burned off' (which is ineffective anyway) anything that previously contained it, remains impermissible to consume (not because it is intoxicating, but because it is impure).

I gather that the Hanafi ruling is a bit different in this respect. As they can eat things that I cannot.

Why do you specify verses from the Qur'an? The impermissability of consuming alcohol (regardless of intoxication) is in the Qur'an. There is also however an important hadith that relates to it, specifically 'anything that intoxicates in small quantities is forbidden in large quantities'.

Simply put, consumption of alcohol itself is impermissible, intoxication is not, as far as I am aware, mentioned in the Quranic verses that relate to this. Of course my understanding is limited, here are some links with a better and further discussion:

A Guide for Consuming Various Meats, Foods, Alcohol, Animal By-Product Ingredients, and Cosmetics
http://seekersguidance.org/ans-blog...-animal-by-product-ingredients-and-cosmetics/

What is the Ruling on Using Solid Intoxicants as flavourings in food?
http://seekersguidance.org/ans-blog...d-intoxicants-as-flavor-ingredients-in-foods/

Did Imam Abu Hanifa distinguish between the legal rulings for wine and beer?
http://seekersguidance.org/ans-blog...-between-the-legal-rulings-for-wine-and-beer/

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-COOLIO- said:

convert to islam? no, her parents wouldnt accept it anyway, im not even the right race for them. as for marriage i dont know if ill ever get married, but yeah we talk about all this stuff, we're messaging each other right now. honestly, this is even about us dating, its about the fact that shes living with a crazy family. even if we split her situation still wouldnt good for her

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kisaya said:

I mean if I were in her place I would be more emotional that I have to branch out of my family. But really if she does want to get away from them then she has nothing to worry about if she leaves. If she does, call the police.



A bunch of girls "do it for the thrill." But to sleep with the guy? That's a really big step. If they just sleep around "for the thrill" then obviously they're not concerned with what their parents think, and/or their parent's probably don't care/aren't conservative.

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Zapages said:

It does not matter what race you are... Will you covert to Islam if they are willing to accept you if you convert.

If you are not serious about getting married. Then why are you wasting your time and her time. When you knew that there would be so much on the line for her? Ie. there will no turning back for her if you do all that stuff.

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Zapages said:

It does not matter what race you are... Will you covert to Islam if they are willing to accept you if you convert.

If you are not serious about getting married. Then why are you wasting your time and her time. When you knew that there would be so much on the line for her? Ie. there will no turning back for her if you do all that stuff.




I know for sure one girl that is going to marry a Hindu guy. *shrugs*. All this has happened regardless of how conservative their own parents are. :\

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-COOLIO- said:

even if she moves out she thinks her brothers (especially the bi-polar one) would kill her regardless of a restraining order, which is why i made that thread about the effectiveness of restraining orders a few days ago (the what would you do if someone wanted to kill you thread). Mind you when i made that thread i didnt realize how serious the possibility was until she spelled out exactly what her father said in regards to honor killings.

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kisaya said:

I don't know what girls you know but a lot of conservative Arab Muslims don't fly with that. My mom doesn't prefer that I should marry a convert, and she would definitely not approve of me marrying a non-Muslim.

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F#A#Oo said:

Ahh the wonders of tribalism...its like the prophets last sermon didnt even happen...in one ear and out the other...

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-COOLIO- said:

a lot of people dont plan on getting married when they start dating. her culture is more oriented to canadas that saudi arabias. we still dont plan on getting married or anything but things have been awesome, getting more serious, and it's still good.

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kisaya said:

I don't know what girls you know but a lot of conservative Arab Muslims don't fly with that. My mom doesn't prefer that I should marry a convert, and she would definitely not approve of me marrying a non-Muslim.

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Zapages said:

But you have to think about that before sleeping with her or dating her. She should have thought of all this stuff too.

Regardless, does she have a relative that she could go for help?

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Zapages said:

I only knew of handful of Muslim girls *about 8 or so* during my undergraduate years. That was about it in our MSA(the whole club had about 20 or so members* All I am saying it does not matter how conservative the parents are and comparing to what their children do.

I mean it is the same with my Mother... But that is a whole different story.

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-COOLIO- said:

she should be able to sleep with over she wants to without her father disowning or possibly murdering her. no one should force religion on their kids. she did think about all this before but she also never knew her father condoned honor killings. she was shocked by that. we both were. i even asked her before we dated if her dad was like that and she said he definitely wasnt. if it were safe we'd still be happily sneaking around

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kisaya said:

It really does matter, especially with girls. I know a lot of conservative families with sons who went off and knocked up some girls, and then in the end they accepted it. You know what I hear about a girl who was a dating a guy? They either get sent to their parents country or disowned if she slept with him.

Obviously it isn't always the case, but the majority of the time it does play a role.

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Zapages said:

That is your opinion about religion. All I am saying is that you two should have taken things slower and think seriously if this relationship can turn into a marriage. This will become real important when her parents find out that you two have slept together. Also your religion will become an issue... Will you convert to Islam to protect her from her father and brothers. How is her Mother? Have you talked to her?|

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Zapages said:

That is your opinion about religion. All I am saying is that you two should have taken things slower and think seriously if this relationship can turn into a marriage. This will become real important when her parents find out that you two have slept together. Also your religion will become an issue... Will you convert to Islam to protect her from her father and brothers. How is her Mother? Have you talked to her?

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-COOLIO- said:

the mother wouldnt kill anybody, shed just be sorely disappointed. the daughter is afraid that shed actually make things hard for the mother by moving out.

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-COOLIO- said:

the mother wouldnt kill anybody, shed just be sorely disappointed. the daughter is afraid that shed actually make things hard for the mother by moving out too.

when you say that the choice thing is my opinion you sound awfully close to condoning the behavior of the family. im saying that if a parent wants to raise their kid to believe a religion then fine (i still disapprove of this but it's acceptable at least), but if they change their minds then let them without disowning or threatening them. you believe differently?

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kisaya said:

I don't think you should pressure him to thinking about marriage with this girl. The girl told him that it would be okay if they slept together, so it's not his responsibility. Right now her safety should be the first priority rather than considering marriage.



I understand this. Hurting my mom is what would kill me the most

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Zapages said:

Its not her lone responsibility.

Has there been any threats to her from her Father? Its just her Father's point of view. The Father and the brothers don't know much according to Coolio?

Also the marriage is the only method that I have seen happen to resolve this type of situation ie. my neighbor's daughter. That is why I am suggesting it so much.

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Zapages said:

I am just talking about raising children with religion... Nothing about her parent's behavior. That is beyond stupid and goes against Islam itself.

Anyway here is an idea that sounds crazy but you can try. Go to a local mosque and talk with the local imam there. Explain everything to him. Then take him to the girl's place. Tell the imam and her parents that you have intentions to eventually get married. That you want her parent's approval and don't want any harm to her.

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Zapages said:

Its not her lone responsibility.

Has there been any threats to her from her Father? Its just her Father's point of view. The Father and the brothers don't know much according to Coolio?

Also the marriage is the only method that I have seen happen to resolve this type of situation ie. my neighbor's daughter. That is why I am suggesting it so much.

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kisaya said:

I know, it's a shame really. However if I did want to marry a convert my parents wouldn't be that disappointed (my dad would be more cool with it than my mom, lol). I think they're more concerned that he probably converted just for the marriage and not the religion itself.

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-COOLIO- said:

i really doubt this would work but ill honestly look into it, i certainly have no qualms pretending to get married or getting married and divorcing later if need be.

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kisaya said:

Yeah I think that's a good idea if you're up for it ;o I really hope everything works out for you two

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kisaya said:

Well yeah, that's why he wants to insure her safety. But marriage is a big step. I don't know, I wouldn't have a guy sleep with me and then tell him it's his responsibility to marry me, unless we discussed that beforehand.

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F#A#Oo said:

lol...but reverts in general are considered better practicing muslims...I know when I meet new brothers they're all like "So tell me your story" which then leads to "you make me feel like being a better muslim" which then leads to..."here take this book/mat/compass I want some reward"...lol...

I stopped counting the number of times people tried to give me Fortress of the Muslim...I could be a stockist for it...

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Zapages said:

Personally, I can't imagine sleeping with a girl without getting married. But that is just me. Its like my responsibility type of thing. I have to be married to sleep with girl type of mentality.

I know most of my non-Muslim friends who are dating have an intention of marriage. The age range for the readers perspective is between 20 to 26 years old.

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Jason Raize '75 - '04 said:

If she feels there is a genuine danger of her life being at risk were the extent of your relationship with her be revealed then she must go to the authorities immediately. As a consequence, she will need to move and cut contact with her family. This is serious and frankly very alarming.

Emailed? Dude you need to be take her to the police station and get her some protection right there and then.

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-COOLIO- said:

i think youre kinda right but i also think itd be in her best interest to take things a little slower, and plan things out, talk more. they're not going to discover anything anytime soon or probably ever, i dont see how they would. besides, it seems to me that in the culture its only heinous for the parents if word gets out to other families and their honor is tarnished.

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kisaya said:

Yes that's how I feel about converts as well, my parents think they're better practicing Muslims as well. They just want to be careful I guess ;/ Especially if I'm with someone who recently converted.



Lol well in America a lot of people don't feel that way. It's the norm to sleep with girls that you are dating without thinking of marriage. Of course a lot of American Muslims don't feel that way but there are some who do (for example this girl).

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-COOLIO- said:

i really doubt this would work but ill honestly look into it, i certainly have no qualms pretending to get married or getting married and divorcing later if need be.

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F#A#Oo said:

'Whoa Whoa Whoa Whoa...

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-COOLIO- said:

she should be able to sleep with over she wants to without her father disowning or possibly murdering her.

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crazy monkey said:

Have you talked to her family ever? Some times things are not that crazy if veil of secrecy is lifted.Did the girl told you she fear for her life?

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RustyNails said:

It wont work...I've lived in KSA for 18 years. They're tribal people.

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Surely, you know the Arabs are a barbarous people. Barbarous and cruel. Who but they! Who but they!

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Codeblue said:

Obviously, no one is going to condone murdering anyone here since that is completely out of line with Islam.

Disowning is another matter though. Sane parents aren't obligated to support their adult child's lifestyle if it makes them feel uncomfortable. She should be free to leave, but she shouldn't expect a hug and a wave goodbye when she does.

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Ashes1396 said:

I'm not sure you've heard anything here that you could not have already thought of yourself, so I'm not sure how to proceed in offering you any help on the matter. Perhaps if you could clarify on what you need clarfying for you, it may help. Or did you just want to talk about it? That's cool too.

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-COOLIO- said:

that's been good to. im just gunna wait for a response to the email i sent and we're gunna see a friend who went through something similar on monday

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OG Kush said:

Any other muslims hear question whether they would marry a woman who didn't wear hijab? Or even prefer it if they didn't? Like I know its better if they do but I got a weakness for the females. I can give up everythign else but GODDAYYUM SON when you see a a girl with a little bitty waist and a big .. u get the point. I don't know what I'm trying to say, just some random thoughts.

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OG Kush said:

So from your point muslims can't have vinegar? Vinegar is from alcohol originally but it's not intoxicating.

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kisaya said:

Vinegar comes from alcohol? Whelp.

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kisaya said:

Vinegar comes from alcohol? Whelp.

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Question: Is is permitted to consume white wine vinegar?

Answer: Walaikum assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

In the Hanafi school, it is permitted to consume wine vinegar. This is whether it was transformed by itself or through intervention. [al-Marghinani, al-Hidaya]

Imam Akmal al-Din al-Babarti (Allah have mercy on him) explains in al-`Inaya, his commentary on al-Hidaya, that the texts that seem to indicate the prohibition of wine vinegar are understood to be abrogated by later texts establishing permission. The wisdom behind the temporary prohibition was to reinforce the disliked nature of wine in the hearts of those morally responsible, as the hadith commentators explain.

Wassalam
Faraz Rabbani

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Alcohol

Alcohol is an Arabic derivation of alghul meaning ghost or evil spirit. An Arab Alchemist by the name of Jabir Ibn Hayyan, known to the west as Geber, first distilled alcohol in 800 AD. He suggested the name for its most effective result. The prohibition of alcohol in Islam is found directly in the Qur’aan and the Sunnah of the Prophet Mohammed, Peace be upon him. liquor are cursed by Allah, but all those who deal with them directly or indirectly. It was reported by Anas, a Companion of the Prophet, that Muhammad, peace be upon him said:

Allah’s curse falls on ten groups of people who deal with alcohol.

The one who distills it;

The one for whom it has been distilled;

The one who drinks it;

The one who transports it;

The one for whom it has been brought;

The one who serves it;

The one who sells it;

The one who utilizes the money from it;

The one who buys it and the one who buys it for someone else.

From this it is clear that alcoholic beverages in all varieties and forms are unlawful for Muslims. This includes all types of wines, liquors, fermented beverages, pure alcohol and the like. There are many reasons why alcoholic beverages have been prohibited in Islam.

Alcohol is an abomination and handiwork of Satan, preventing the remembrance of Allah. It prevents and/or delays Muslims from performing their daily prayers. Even if they pray they will not understand the meaning and significance of what they are doing and saying. Those who drink Alcohol will be denied Paradise . Those who drink Alcohol are considered by Islam to be similar to those who worship idols, something totally prohibited in Islam. At the time of drinking Alcohol a person is not considered to be a believer.

Alcohol is the mother of evil in society. Muslims believe that the Prophets of Allah did not taste alcoholic beverages and that Alcohol was prohibited in the original scriptures of other divine revealed religions.

Alcohol brings Allah’s curse on those who drink it as well as on those who plant or cultivate its raw materials, produce, sell or deal with it and those who participate in drinking parties.

Alcohol is responsible for a large number of road accidents. Alcohol causes many broken families, Because of Alcohol homicide, rape and other offenses are committed.

Islamic Law regarding Alcohol

If it is known with certainty that medicine or food contains Alcohol derived from one of the four sources [Ashribah Arba’] raw grape juice, processed grape juice, dried grape (raisins) juice and date juice then such medicine and food are not permissible.

Medicinal Alcohol

Regarding medicine if on the authority of a competent doctor, no alternative medication is available, then the usage of such medicine in limitation and necessity will be allowed. In these circumstances Hanafi Fiqh allows Tadawi bil Haraam [medicine from Haraam sources]. If it is known with certainty that alcohol derived other than the four sources have been used as ingredients in medication or food then according to Imaam Abu Hanifa and Imaam Abu Yusuf Rahmatullah Alayhima. It will be permissible to use such medication providing it does not intoxicate.

Food Alcohol

However food containing this ingredient will not be permissible to consume whether it intoxicates or not, providing Halaal and pure food is freely available. If Halaal food is not freely available and this food containing alcohol, as one of its ingredient in some form or other, is the only food available and it is extremely difficult to abstain therefrom. Then in such circumstances both, Imaam Abu Hanifa and Imaam Abu Yusuf allow the consumption of such food providing it does not intoxicate. It should be remembered that this second type of alcohol if used as an ingredient in food and medicine is not permissible. The ruling is on the Fatwah of Imaam Muhammad but because of [Umoom Balwa, public predicament it] will be allowed following the ruling of the Shaikhain, Imaam Abu Hanifa and Imaam Abu Yusuf.

Another solution to the problem can be to inquire from a specialist in the field of medicine and nutrition when alcohol, used in this manner, remains in its original state in the final product or undergoes significant chemical changes causing it to lose its original properties. If it is transformed after the process not remaining as alcohol then all the Imaams agree to it’s usage and consumption, citing the case where wine turns into vinegar losing all its former properties thus making it permissible for Muslims because of the change to the original properties of wine.

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Ashes1396 said:

I think also that you should contemplate having deeper conversations regarding your partner's faith.

Faith may be a private thing, but there is a tendency for people, regardless of culture, creed or society, to fill in the gaps of our knowledge, with what we know, instead of better alternatives. Sometimes one doesn't even know what one believes. And so in trying to help your self through this, and her, I suggest you go on a knowledge binge on the religion in question.

This isn't a veiled effort to convert or coerce but to engage you on matters that may concern a large part of your life going forward. I for one don't care about your faith, or lack of it, religion, or lack of it, what I do care and encourage is that you arm your self, so to speak, with knowledge. An education of sorts on the matter in question.

If you were a child, I'd say you didn't know what you were doing. But you're an Adult, so you are fully capable of realising the gravity of your situation. It may be overblown, but is it not better to deal with the situation with the gravitas it deserves. It is also better if one is patient and deals with the situation as wisely as possible.

I've had the situation go several ways, so no one example sets a precendent. It can go swimmingly, or it can go very horribly. as you fully well know.

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OttomanScribe said:

Really horrible situation mate. I was thinking about this today (read it before work) and I thought of a few things.

I wouldn't advise going to an Imam for a few reasons, the first is that if they are from Saudi, they probably will be from a different sect to the local imam.

Secondly, the kind of people who are into honour killings are tribalists who will be more concerned about the jahili norms of their tribe than about Islam.

Another thing to think on is that her relationship with you may be putting her at great risk, and you must be very very clear with her exactly what she is going to this risk for. Before I was Muslim, I dated a girl from a very conservative Catholic family, her relationship with me led her to be disowned by her father, who died a month later, and chucked out of her house. We broke up four months later, she thought I was more into her than I was, and that I was in it for the ring and kids...

Needless to say I regret the whole thing immensely.

I think that, while contacting the police can be beneficial to the situation, a far better option is to put her in touch with a community women's organisation. Going to the cops is the kind of thing you should do if direct harm is occurring at the time. Otherwise, while the cops might like to intervene, they cant do much.

So I think that is the most pertinent thing to do here. Besides the issues around your relationship with her, it sounds like her family situation involves the kind of violence that is unacceptable in any case. A community organisation, familiar with women's issues and her community specifically, is the most likely place a solution to this will come from, insha'Allah. I will keep her in my dua. All the brothers and sisters here I assume will do the same.

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OttomanScribe said:

It is made using khamr (wine) yeah. However it depends on what madhab you are from, as to what ruling is applicable to you.

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Codeblue said:

Has she actually been struck?

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-COOLIO- said:

yes, several times

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kisaya said:

Hm. I actually don't know what madhhab I'm from DX Guess I have something to ask my parents in the morning lmao.

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