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Easy Allies |EZOT2| Love & Respect
- Thread starter Auctopus
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Dude...
Are they getting a PSVR? I haven't heard them talk about it much, and they do already have a Vive, but considering the relatively low cost and that they probably have the rest of the peripherals around, doesn't seem like a monumental task.
I'm dying for some RIGS coverage from anywhere at this point, would love to see them take a stab at it.
I'm dying for some RIGS coverage from anywhere at this point, would love to see them take a stab at it.
laserlaser
Member
So everyone's coo w/ the name, "Tales from the East"? Got it.
GamingOblivion
Banned
Can you actually provide evidence that isn't your own opinion of this being racist with language? These things are usually heavily documented.
GamingOblivion
Banned
I mean, I agree that the east isn't the best word to use when talking about Japan specifically, but Japan is part of the eastern world as has been defined, so it isn't exactly wrong. I doubt anyone will be personally offended by the name "Tales from the East". Probably not worth changing it now that an episode is already out, unless there really is some racist backstory to it.
I've never heard of racism being related to how the term came to be. I'd like to read more about it, if you have a credible source. I've always just assumed that the term came to be when Europeans traveled eastward and found new cultures that were unlike their own. As they traveled further and further, their definition of the east expanded, even though the cultures that were in the east were very different from each other. It wasn't so much that they thought they were at the center of the world, but rather than the countries and cultures were east from the cultures they were familiar with. We say that Europe is part of the west, after all, not the center.
KimonoNoNo
Member
Come on of all the things to get worked up about.
As a Brazilian, i don't see anyone here or in any place offended that United States call themselves America. And Japan isn't even widely known as East.
Seems to me you are throwing gasoline in a non situation.
hiphoptherobot
Member
Well obviously she doesn't represent everyone, but my Japanese wife says she cant see anyone being offended by this. At the very least, not Japanese people. Do you get offended if someone calls you a Westerner? Probably not. (Also saying something is in the east is not the same as calling someone an "Oriental".
Gotta admit it irked me a little as well and you're right that The East and The Far East are eurocentric concepts generally connected to things like European Imperialism and Colonialism. (same with Near East and Middle East of course.)
So people that are aware of that usually try to avoid it as much as possible. And I mean, how much sense does it make for Ben flying westward to Japan anyway?
It's easy to see how deeply ingrained this concept is in our heads..
So I see where you are coming from and I agree that the name has some unfortunate connotations.
I'm trying to come up with a "But...", but the more I think about it, the less I think I will be able to. It's an unthoughtful formulation without malicious intent. It's also so incredible common and for some just something that makes sense, because something may really be in "the east" from their perspective.
Still, it's always a good thing to be aware of the history and meaning that accompany specific terms.
Ben wasn't and that's cool because now he is and no harm was done. We all learned something and can hopefully move on from here.
Sorry for "calling you out" like this earlier. It was just so perfect.
Anyway you're not really wrong, just that "when Europeans traveled eastward and found new cultures unlike their own" generally entailed everything that was part of European Imperialism and Colonialism, so very bad stuff.
Europe was very much seen as center of the world and culturally superior to anyone else which was of course used to justify some really terrible things all around the world. Consequences of this are still very present and can have impact on people even today! (And the foreseeable future sadly)
Europe as part of "The West" originates from Western Bloc and Eastern Bloc during the Cold War.
I don't have any specific literature for you on the spot right now but if you want to learn more, European Imperialism, Colonialism, Ethnocentrism (like Sinocentrism, Japanocentrism, Eurocentrism) is common terminology and should provide you with plenty literature to dig in.
Grayfox341
Member
I can definitely see how "Tales From The East" could be an issue. The thought didn't cross my mind, not that ignorance is an excuse. I plan on naming future episodes "Tales From Japan". I'm sorry if the wording alienated anyone. The videos are meant to be a celebration of culture.
There is nothing racist or wrong with the name, the thing is that people get offended by everything now and the internet gives them a place to be loud and express their shitty complaints about the more irrelevant things ever.
I think thats a smart decision Ben. After all the Japanese gaming culture is not onky very different from the US gaming culture but also extreme different from Koreab or Chinese or Taiwaneese gaming cultures, each of which could be identified as being the East.
Not only that, Ben will probably explain, even if very briefly, why he changed the name, and then you will likely see outrage in the comments.
But, whatever.
Honestly, it's one guy that doesn't like it, unless it's more prominent in the YouTube comments. Tales from the east is fine.
Anyway, I'm just back from the clubs since I'm officially 32 tonight! Swig of Sake for the working man since we're taliking about Bens show.
If any Ally reads this, any NX betting special should be for the Money in the Bank contract... Ask Huber or Brad for the rules of that, but the foam briefcase should come into use... Maybe not the Seth Rollins costume though.
Anyway, I'm just back from the clubs since I'm officially 32 tonight! Swig of Sake for the working man since we're taliking about Bens show.
If any Ally reads this, any NX betting special should be for the Money in the Bank contract... Ask Huber or Brad for the rules of that, but the foam briefcase should come into use... Maybe not the Seth Rollins costume though.
Yeah, I agree.
Imo there is something wrong with the internet when a minority of people can complain and let artists/developers/video creators change their work because of what some people think.
While I don't see a problem with the name, I am not saying the people who feel strongly about this can't speak their mind as it is not my place to tell other people what to say or think. The problem I have is that they do push their ideas on other people and they did let Ben change his mind about the title while almost nobody has a problem with it.
Again, I don't want to attack somebody as they are in their right to speak their mind and I don't think they wanted to push their ideas on everybody, but I think it would be better to just let it slide when you don't agree with something which is put on the internet instead of trying to change it.
Speaking your mind about it is of course ok (and I think it is a good thing to do, I am doing it as well), but trying to have something changed because you don't like it can come over as a selfish thing imo.
Btw, I tried my best to not attack or hurt somebody. If I did, I am really sorry, I can try to change it if you want (I am not joking here).
I think it is a very difficult balance to speak your mind without having people to disagree (for EZA as well) as it is impossible to please everybody. Sometimes you just don't agree with thing your read or hear and that's ok. Because of this, I think it is best to let creators just do what they do best without trying to change it to your preferences too much (but yeah, that's my 2 cents).
Also, Tales from Japan is fine for me as well, it is just that I don't think it is our place to change too much about the creative output EZA does.
And Ben, I loved the episode. I think you did very well for a first time editing and I didn't really had a lot of problems with the narration, but I am not a native English speaker either (like somebody else mentioned), so maybe that's why.
To be fair in this particular instances Tales from Japan offends no one while Tales from the East does. It's an easy decision.
Its like that discussion a few pages back about how homogenized the gaming history became and how it basically ignores European gaming history and instead follows the American gaming history as the one true history. Similarly you can't really talk about "eastern gaming cultutre" when the market in Japan, Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, China, Vietnam, Malaysia or the Philippines is completely different.
Ta! I should sleep... But drunk Overwatch....
Someone might be offended with the "American Gaming history" thing as well, since you know, America is not a country is a huge continent. You should be more specific there as well.
I don't get it. GAF moderation is pretty spot on usually, but I don't think I've seen eastern/western games being bad words. Ofcourse I shouldn't base my knowledge of what is racist to forum moderation, but as I said GAF moderation is very progressive. If games from the east isn't offensive why is tales? Changing the name and explaining why will probably alienate more viewers than having the current name. As we already had one in this thread who couldn't take the community anymore after this complaint.
Personally I don't really care what the show is called though, watching for the content. Tales from the east sounds better to my ears, but IF it indeed is racist. Then change it, I support that decision. But if it's just an overreaction, then don't.
Edit: I've been trying to "study" this with the help of Google. East Asian would be a proper term about japanese people atleast, that much I've learned at this point.
Personally I don't really care what the show is called though, watching for the content. Tales from the east sounds better to my ears, but IF it indeed is racist. Then change it, I support that decision. But if it's just an overreaction, then don't.
Edit: I've been trying to "study" this with the help of Google. East Asian would be a proper term about japanese people atleast, that much I've learned at this point.
You use rather strong language to make it sound like an opinion produced in the fringe ivory tower of cultural studies constitutes a fact. It is fine to express that opinion as an opinion. However, to imply that a content creator has factually been disrespectful to an entire group of people is presumptuous, when you have no authority to speak for that group, and no empirical evidence to demonstrate that a majority in that group would actually feel disrespected by such formulations, and no empirical evidence to demonstrate other negative consequences of such a title. I would feel bullied by such unsubstantiated strong judgement, even if the comment is not meant to come across that way.
Good point US gaming history.
At the same time people in the USA refer to thrmselves sometimes as Americans, with the meaning of being from the USA. No one in Japan refers to thrmselves as an Easterner.
Oh I forgot, thank you Ben for the series. It's been one my most anticipated videos of EZA yet, maybe THE most! First episode didn't disappoint and from the subject matter it seems that second episode will be even more interesting.
Fun fact, Tales from the East will be first video that my friend will watch from EZA. Friend who has been Patreon supporter from the start with 10 dollars a month. He just isn't gaming at all at the moment since he has been very busy, so he hasn't been following the videos. He travels a lot and hasn't been to Japan. And Ben you were his favorite in the GT days, so this series is right up his alley. Also episodes not being very long is a positive for him too.
Keep up the great work Ben and other allies!
Some people in the USA also use term "leader of the free world" about their president. Which comes back to the complaint in this thread, assholes thinking they are center of the universe. And the term itself comes from the cold war era and is a term of propaganda. But I feel that I am going offtopic somehow. It just annoys me to see it, seen it even on GAF off-topic discussion. EZA hasn't used it (yet!) so it's irrelevant to this topic.
Fun fact, Tales from the East will be first video that my friend will watch from EZA. Friend who has been Patreon supporter from the start with 10 dollars a month. He just isn't gaming at all at the moment since he has been very busy, so he hasn't been following the videos. He travels a lot and hasn't been to Japan. And Ben you were his favorite in the GT days, so this series is right up his alley. Also episodes not being very long is a positive for him too.
Keep up the great work Ben and other allies!
Some people in the USA also use term "leader of the free world" about their president. Which comes back to the complaint in this thread, assholes thinking they are center of the universe. And the term itself comes from the cold war era and is a term of propaganda. But I feel that I am going offtopic somehow. It just annoys me to see it, seen it even on GAF off-topic discussion. EZA hasn't used it (yet!) so it's irrelevant to this topic.
Hmm, one of the most influencial Hard/Heavy bands from the 80's is a Japanese band called Loudness, this is their most famost album:
Hmm, one of the most influencial Hard/Heavy bands from the 80's is a Japanese band called Loudness, this is their most famost album:
While I get your point, I hope you're not trying to use this to convice us that the Japanese people (or any people in Asia) refer to themselves as Easteners. Or simply say that they come from "the East".
It seems like he is trying to convince us that the term east to include Japan isn't offensive to people of Japan. And they even use it themselves occasionally.
If someone says it's offensive, then no. We have to wait and see.
Edit: If the series gets it's name changed, Tales from the East Asia sounds good I think.
What Budi said above (i even recognize some posts above that East is not a widely known term to talk about Japanese people). And also you said no one uses the term in Japan, which is clearly not true, that's all.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
He didn't call it "Tales from the Orient" you dorks. If he did that, you might have a leg to stand on. He called it "Tales from the East."
Is anyone in here remotely Japanese?
Is anyone in here remotely Japanese?
no but (im an expert)
orthodoxy1095
Banned
It does indeed reek of Westernsplaining in here.
That's the thing, I'm sure the people complaining about the term being "racist" are white people from the US, but I'm sure like the poster above me said, they seem experts in japanese culture.
That's not how these things work. People get offended behalf of others, without actual knowledge if something is indeed considered offensive. I mean, they might be right. Maybe it is offensive then I'm glad that I've learned something today. But I didn't find anything to support that claim while trying to search. And to me eastern games, eastern food being okay contradicts with east being not ok suddenly.
Ben shot himself in the foot?
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I mean, the original post was almost correct. Orientalism isn't a great thing to partake in, and the term "Orient" or "Oriental" is generally seen as outdated and as a pejorative. A few years ago, Obama actually struck both the terms "Oriental" and "Negro" from Federal law (which gives a clear comparison of "Oriental" to that familiar pejorative).
But "East" as the same kind of thing? Come on. I've never heard any of my relatives offended by the terminology.
Never let an opportunity go to waste to make a great, well-meaning guy like Ben feel potentially bad/awkward over an opinion presented as fact without evidence.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Real talk.
Also even if changing a name of the show isn't that big of a deal itself. I could see this opening a door to trolling also, since EZA is all about Love & Respect they would accomodate to the trolls when they twist something to being offensive to them. When in reality it's not. Not to say that the east complaint is trolling, but it very well could be.
Sometimes I feel like I should be a professor in linguistics to avoid any kind of offense. People don't usually take in consideration that everyone doesn't speak english as their native language or are familiar with the origins or even modern meanings of the words. But as I said, I'm willing to learn. But it bothers me that people are so agressive about these things sometimes. To me intent matters, no matter what anyone says. Even non offensive words can be used in offensive manner.
time to commit sudoku
To chill on the drunk shitposting for a second (forgive any impending grammatical errrors), no, I'm not an expert on Japan. I'm not an expert on China either, but I did live there for more than two years studying abroad and then working, and during that time I met enough Chinese people to comfortably say that yes, from a global perspective, the Chinese absolutely, explicitly refer to themselves and other people and nations originating in the Eastern Hemisphere as Easterners (and the hemisphere they live in as the East) and people of the Western Hemisphere as Westerners who come from The West. So no, I still can't comment on Japan, but I can say that the largest group of people it could possibly offend... Don't really care.
'Orient' and its derivatives are racially charged, harmful terms. But, 'East' and its derivatives absolutely aren't synonymous with it and are, in my experience, objective, globally accepted, inoffensive descriptors. Conflating the two terms is incorrect, and arguing against the usage of "East" at all as ethnocentric is like arguing against the calendar.
If you want to tell Asians that they should revert to some Qing Dynasty timekeeping formula, go for it, but I'm pretty sure no one's making a fuss over using BC and AD.
Pseudo-intellectualism bollocks. This can easily be one of the worst communities around sometimes when it comes to criticism.
Edit~
Nope. Better scratch out the E in your compass too because if you follow it and end up in Japan, you are now problematic.
Edit~
Nope. Better scratch out the E in your compass too because if you follow it and end up in Japan, you are now problematic.
The original complaint was given with good intent, though it most likely was misinformed. I don't agree with the complaint but I don't see the thought behind it being a bad thing.
I think that particular poster regarding East was probably well-intentioned - and I would like to hear from him again on the matter (if I haven't overread another response from him- but yeah, I am not sure he's on the right here - or at the very least - I am not sure if his personal issue is of such impact and importance that the name should be changed. But what the fuck do I know, so yeah...
Far more important and egregious: Talking about Europe if you really just mean the UK. Not racist, but still a viable reason to be hanged on the market place!
btw @ Q&A and Ben's notice that he reads "Greetings from Germany" a lot. I am a firm believer that's born from our inferiority complex as a nation and our urge to show the world we are nice.
Far more important and egregious: Talking about Europe if you really just mean the UK. Not racist, but still a viable reason to be hanged on the market place!
btw @ Q&A and Ben's notice that he reads "Greetings from Germany" a lot. I am a firm believer that's born from our inferiority complex as a nation and our urge to show the world we are nice.
I am not serious... well, maybe I am. 
Supermanisdead
Member
There's nothing wrong with that poster talking about something he believes. I happen to agree with him. What's really more annoying is the backlash going all out and lambasting modern pc culture and whining about how everything is seen as offensive. If you disagree, explain why. This is a discussion forum after all.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
The burden of proof is on the poster who made the claim. It's been clearly stated by most people who disagreed why we think it's ridiculous.
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