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agrajag · Sep 13, 2011

man, these investors are harder to please than Gaffers! Monster Hunter is pretty much a guaranteed success for the system.

Gospel · Sep 13, 2011

Aaron said:
I'm not really a fan of Nintendo personally... but why are they targeted with the 'DOOMED!!' talk so often? They're hugely successful and that gets some press, but the second something doesn't go all their way it's 'oh they're completely screwed now.' Because no they aren't. The gamecube didn't kill them and neither will the 3ds. That's pure crazy talk.

Probably because they profit primarily from games, unlike the other two. So if something disrupts the status quo, they'll be the first to be put on the hot seat because game products is really all they're about.

waicol · Sep 13, 2011

Futureman said:
what was that one graphic Nintendo showed near the beginning of the conference last night?

I think it showed the 3DS selling better in it's first 6 months than the Wii or DS, but I don't speak Japan language.

It was about genre demographics on the system, that lead to the pink 3ds announce to get more girls buy the 3ds.

Icelight · Sep 13, 2011

Futureman said:
what was that one graphic Nintendo showed near the beginning of the conference last night?

I think it showed the 3DS selling better in it's first 6 months than the Wii or DS, but I don't speak Japan language.

Nah, it was the ratio of male to female owners, I believe.

The 3DS was more heavily weighted towards males than the others.

-Edit- Ach beaten.

diffusionx · Sep 13, 2011

BurntPork said:
Nintendo just shot themselves in the foot.

I don't know how much the rest of you know about Japanese culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in America where you can become successful by being an asshole. If you screw someone over in Japan, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.

What this means is the japanese public, after hearing about this, is not going to want to purchase 3DS, nor will they purchase any of Nintendo's stock. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Capcom has alienated an entire market with this move.

Nintendo, publicly apologize and cancel all hardcore games for 3DS or you can kiss your business goodbye.

This is correct.

Benedict · Sep 13, 2011

Maybe they should do like SEGA and start making these, but with Nintendo games. I woud probably buy a few anyway...

SmokyDave · Sep 13, 2011

Fafalada said:
I'll give you support (the volume of releases at least). I'll challenge anyone on arguing "average"-quality though - if the app-numbers Apple flaunts to us are true - good luck working out averages (let alone their trends).

Yeah, fair enough. I was looking at it through a consumers eyes (I download way more 'hits' than 'misses' lately) but I guess when you look at all the games to hit the app store in a given day, the quality is going to dip severely. With such an open platform, that's to be expected.

I never argued they don't make money - I only argued profitability is low(hence bigger development investments are not sustainable - at least not yet) - and the current business model is primarily working well for Apple.
That said, we're already seeing a shift to free2play (and revenues appear to be rising as result).

I see. I'd agree with that. Certainly F2P appears to be working out for some people.

Alextended said:
Yes they have. Also, lol Cave. What a high caliber high budget developer, throwing ports to iOS. What about the rest of my post then?

They did a first anniversary sale. Perhaps Ninty ought to try out this 'sale' thing every now & then.

I disagree with much of the rest of your post but that one line really stuck out as totally incorrect.

Wrestlemania said:
Ports. It'd be interesting to see if they ever develop an entirely new game for iOS.

They're optimised, enhanced ports, sometimes with new content. Sure, they're still ports, but they're not lazy by any means.

Edit: Not that you're saying they're lazy, I know you're not.

Cipherr said:
Dude, even if they made 100% of the revenue as profit it STILL WOULD BE A mere drop in the bucket. Yes, we do have enough information.

We dont need the ratio, we can flat out give Rovio the best case scenario and its still fucking peanuts.

Angry Birds took one guy 12 minutes and 7 pence to make. Now redo your calculations.

wsippel · Sep 13, 2011

agrajag said:
man, these investors are harder to please than Gaffers! Monster Hunter is pretty much a guaranteed success for the system.

The investors in question (probably only a single fond manager) neither knew nor cared about the actual announcements. Stock dropped before anything was announced.

Zoramon089 · Sep 13, 2011

Philthy said:
I've bought every Nintendo handheld to date with the exception of the 3DS.

1. 3D is tired. I cannot stand it. They broke the barrier of not having to wear stupid glasses that dig into the bridge of your nose. But in the end, 3D is just not doing it for me.

2. Price. I could post that we've been coming out of a recession, but the truth is I simply don't want to spend any more on this device than a normal DS. They dropped the price to a level worth buying. But...

3. Graphical upgrade is negligible. When all is said and done, it still looks like my DS that does 3D. I want something that is by Nintendo that does graphics like the PSP if I want to move on from my DS.

4. I am perfectly happy with the DS. I like the 2D games. It still feels like a great platform. Unlike the Wii, this platform has life left in it. Leave it alone for another 5 years.

How about you stop posting bullshit. The graphics are better than the 3DS and there's a number of games to show this.

walking fiend · Sep 13, 2011

SmokyDave said:
I keep hearing that iOS games don't make money and yet nobody has any actual numbers (outside of AB). It's quite odd.

How much do you think the whole revenue of all the apps, not all the games, on all 200 million iDevices has been since App store was launched? How much on million of androids out there?

And how many developers are there that this amount of revenue should be shared between them?

3. Graphical upgrade is negligible. When all is said and done, it still looks like my DS that does 3D. I want something that is by Nintendo that does graphics like the PSP if I want to move on from my DS.

You don't need a 3DS, you need a pair of glasses, that would be a much better investment.

fabricated backlash · Sep 13, 2011

SmokyDave said:
No, we don't. You have no idea what the development or marketing budgets are for iOS. We have no idea. If they make a 20th of the profit at a 40th of the cost, that's a win. We cannot be sure without concrete numbers from a range of sources.

Yet you are comfortably going out declaring IOS putting a squeeze on traditional handheld gaming without data to back it up?

Yeah right.

devildog820 · Sep 13, 2011

mutsu said:
This.

For all we know, it may jump back up tomorrow.

It likely will. Someone didn't like that they didn't announce new hardware or something and sold their shares. Some other, smarter, investor made money shorting Nintendo.

edit: Or like was said above, it had nothing to do with the announcements because some fund manager was moving money around.

SmokyDave · Sep 13, 2011

boris feinbrand said:
Yet you are comfortably going out declaring IOS putting a squeeze on traditional handheld gaming without data to back it up?

Yeah right.

This is why I think they're being squeezed. Seen plenty of people argue the tone of the article but not so many contradict the numbers.

Edit: Missed this post.

SovanJedi said:
If it means anything, our game didn't make us any money, and it was a relative shoestring budget as it is.

I'm sorry to hear that. Which game?

Pachterballs · Sep 13, 2011

wsippel said:
The investors in question (probably only a single fond manager) neither knew nor cared about the actual announcements. Stock dropped before anything was announced.

so by that yardstick; seeing how things are now announced; share prices should climb? Keep me updated.

AbsoluteZero · Sep 13, 2011

Fairly certain this was said at the beginning of the DS' lifespan.

And if I wasn't at work I'd dig up the news stories to back up my belief.

mutsu · Sep 13, 2011

Analysts/shareholders wants Nintendo to target casuals.

Gamers want Nintendo to target hardcore.

Nintendo can't make everyone happy.

Human beings are hard to satisfy.

JoshuaJSlone · Sep 13, 2011

Mafro said:
Did the MH4 announcement pass them by?

Must've been expecting 5, 6, and 7 too.

PdotMichael said:
But you get no dividend with Nintendo shares, it's all about growth.

Looks like since March 2009 there's been one every six months, though it varies pretty wildly.

1-D_FTW said:
Why? I'm thoroughly unimpressed too. That lineup is like a return to the glory days of the N64.

In the alternate reality where N64 was getting sequels to the biggest third party SNES games, and snagged the Genesis's biggest exclusive.

EvilMario · Sep 13, 2011

Philthy said:
I've bought every Nintendo handheld to date with the exception of the 3DS.

1. 3D is tired. I cannot stand it. They broke the barrier of not having to wear stupid glasses that dig into the bridge of your nose. But in the end, 3D is just not doing it for me.

2. Price. I could post that we've been coming out of a recession, but the truth is I simply don't want to spend any more on this device than a normal DS. They dropped the price to a level worth buying. But...

3. Graphical upgrade is negligible. When all is said and done, it still looks like my DS that does 3D. I want something that is by Nintendo that does graphics like the PSP if I want to move on from my DS.

4. I am perfectly happy with the DS. I like the 2D games. It still feels like a great platform. Unlike the Wii, this platform has life left in it. Leave it alone for another 5 years.

What is this nonsense. You have clearly spent much time with the 3DS. :/

The only titles that look like DS games, are the shitty ports directly from the DS.

Pachterballs · Sep 13, 2011

beril said:
Port of a PSP port of a 14 year old PSX game. Doesn't really show that much faith in the platform

right.

lol.

I can't fucking wait to play an awesome game.

I mean; isn't like the biggest game on 3DS a port of a N64 title? OOT? How old is that again? Doesn't really show much faith in THAT platform. I mean, what's next; star fox 64 oh. wait. right. And I'm sure Nintendo will be supplying many more port of old games. Its practically the Nintendo way.

2 can play this game.

Phoenician_Viking · Sep 13, 2011

donny2112 said:
Wait for them to announce more stuff in the October conference, stock drops more, and then buyback. :lol

Nintendo has another conference in October?

dallow_bg · Sep 13, 2011

AbsoluteZero said:
Fairly certain this was said at the beginning of the DS' lifespan.

And if I wasn't at work I'd dig up the news stories to back up my belief.

:remembers mobile gaming in 04:
I'd like to see those.

The Bookerman · Sep 13, 2011

schuelma said:
It appears to me investors are heavily fixated on the mobile market, and basically unless Nintendo or Sony announces they are bringing Mario and Uncharted to iphone analysts are not going to be impressed.

That,s what I think too.

GuiltySpank · Sep 13, 2011

We're not witnessing the decline of Nintendo, we're witnessing the decline of the dedicated mobile gaming device. We'll really see this confirmed once PS Vita flops.

Dedicated mobile gaming is fast becoming a niche.

walking fiend · Sep 13, 2011

SmokyDave said:
This is why I think they're being squeezed. Seen plenty of people argue the tone of the article but not so many contradict the numbers.

Edit: Missed this post.

I'm sorry to hear that. Which game?

This is why this will not sustain though, unless developers are happy with making less money:

Overall, the portable gaming sector has shrunk from $2.7 billion in revenue in 2009 to $2.4 billion in 2010, as consumers downloaded cheaper mobile games over buying pricier handheld games.

It is a pretty misleading article. Percentage of the whole market isn't necessarily indicative of its healthiness.

Of course people would prefer to pay the cheapest games, but would developers let them have it in the long run? They don't run a charity. The least
Nintendo realized during Wii decline, is that they should cater to publishers, as they are who ultimately matter, and that is what lead them to their Wii U online strategy with a focus on making publishers the ones who profit most out of it.

Javier · Sep 13, 2011

Beam said:
Nintendo has another conference in October?

They used to do an American conference every year around that time, but I don't think they've said anything about it this year.

saichi · Sep 13, 2011

BurntPork said:
Nintendo just shot themselves in the foot.

I don't know how much the rest of you know about Japanese culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in America where you can become successful by being an asshole. If you screw someone over in Japan, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.

What this means is the japanese public, after hearing about this, is not going to want to purchase 3DS, nor will they purchase any of Nintendo's stock. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Capcom has alienated an entire market with this move.

Nintendo, publicly apologize and cancel all hardcore games for 3DS or you can kiss your business goodbye.

I swear I read this from you on another thread. Did you post it here again by accident?

Phoenician_Viking · Sep 13, 2011

Nuclear Muffin said:
Rovio: All versions of Angry Birds combined have had 250 million downloads. Made $50 million in revenue.

That wouldn't even cover Mario Kart 7's marketing costs.

And Rovio is selling one million angry bird shirt and other merchandise every month. They are clearly making more money than their game.

mclaren777 · Sep 13, 2011

The Kyoto-based company's shares have plunged nearly 50 percent so far this year, hit by the 3DS flop and doubts that it can replicate the success of its Wii home console with the next generation WiiU.

I decided to fact-check and it seems to be true.

Ydahs · Sep 13, 2011

saichi said:
I swear I read this from you on another thread. Did you post it here again by accident?

No, you probably read this:

Regulus Tera said:
Capcom just shot themselves in the foot.

I don't know how much the rest of you know about Japanese culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in America where you can become successful by being an asshole. If you screw someone over in Japan, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.

What this means is the japanese public, after hearing about this, is not going to want to purchase Monster Hunter 4 for 3DS, nor will they purchase any of Capcom's games. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Capcom has alienated an entire market with this move.

Square, publicly apologize and cancel MH4 for 3DS or you can kiss your business goodbye.

Jamie OD · Sep 13, 2011

GuiltySpank said:
We're not witnessing the decline of Nintendo, we're witnessing the decline of the dedicated mobile gaming device. We'll really see this confirmed once PS Vita flops.

Dedicated mobile gaming is fast becoming a niche.

I see your point. Although I don't think Vita will flop straight away, I do wonder how long a lifespan it will have.

fabricated backlash · Sep 13, 2011

SmokyDave said:
This is why I think they're being squeezed. Seen plenty of people argue the tone of the article but not so many contradict the numbers.

I don't think anyone denies that IOS and Android are posing a challenge to dedicated handheld games. But the similarities in argument to the PC vs console debates right before the PS2 launched seem all too similar. PC was doomed because ultimately you could get a console cheaper and yadda yadda...

The reality is, that PC gaming is alive and kicking, mainly thanks to some great innovations like STeam. If Nintendo and/or Sony manage to differentiate themselves enough from IOS, they can secure their status quo for the foreseeable future.
But don't ask me what that would be. I personally would say games that can't be played in a competent matter on IOS, which they are allready releasing so...

qq more · Sep 13, 2011

saichi said:
I swear I read this from you on another thread. Did you post it here again by accident?

It's a meme.

rezuth · Sep 13, 2011

BurntPork said:
What the actual fuck? I guess they where really hoping for a move to iOS.

Well, guys, let's be smart and buy their stock now, since it'll explode this holiday. 5 million worldwide between November and December, at the very least!

Doubtful with the new iPod Touch and iPhone right around the corner

StevieP · Sep 13, 2011

michaeltraps said:
I really have a hard time taking these investors seriously - they chase that "flavor of the week" and seem to just be shaking their heads stubbornly until they hear what they want to hear (which will never happen).

Mobile gaming did not begin this past February in Japan and March in the US/Europe so I don't see how they can make the connection that suddenly Nintendo just doesn't have what it takes to sell systems and games anymore. Take a look at the launch of the DS - it wasn't a hit out of the gate. In fact, it was met with large amounts of doubt and even ridicule, yet became a huge seller because the games are good an appealing to a variety of age groups.

I have a few younger cousins (5-12 year range) and NONE of them extensively game on any type of cell phone or mobile device - they play on their DS/3DS/Wii and want every single new game that comes out. Investors equating parents playing Angry Birds to all people of all ages wanting a smart phone to play games because of 99 cent impulse buys is getting incredibly old and I believe immensely misguided. Kids don't care about price and will always want that shiny new toy with that shiny new game cartridge to rip out of the plastic, pop open the box and stick in their system - and parents know this.

I'm sorry, are you suggesting that The Legend of Zelda is only worth as much as Cut the Rope? There are lots of examples of bad pricing on both e-stores, mind you, but making a blanket statement like "virtual console games should only be a dollar" seems disingenuous.

krypt0nian · Sep 13, 2011

Nintendo is just learning what it's like to be on the shit end of the stick news-wise, and how hard it is to come back from a fall.

wsippel · Sep 13, 2011

Beam said:
And Rovio is selling one million angry bird shirt and other merchandise every month. They are clearly making more money than their game.

Merchandising is actually included in that $50 million figure as far as I know.

SmokyDave · Sep 13, 2011

walking fiend said:
This is why this will not sustain though, unless developers are happy with making less money:

It is a pretty misleading article. Percentage of the whole market isn't necessarily indicative of its healthiness.

Of course people would prefer to pay the cheapest games, but would developers let them have it in the long run?

The DS and PSP were in decline, helping to account for some of the shrinkage. I do feel that 'app' prices are too low for a healthy eco-system though. Luckily, there's room to move upwards. I sincerely doubt that the blanket rise a couple of weeks ago (59p - 69p, £1.19 - £1.49) was noticed by many or annoyed many people. Keep popping it up 10p at a time and bang some in-app purchases in there. There's room to grow. The opposite is true of the dedicated handhelds, they need to lower their prices and spread games across more price points.

Beam said:
And Rovio is selling one million angry bird shirt and other merchandise every month. They are clearly making more money than their game.

Do we even know if that number includes Angry Birds Rio or Angry Birds Seasons?

walking fiend · Sep 13, 2011

Ydahs said:
No, you probably read this:

What this means is the japanese public, after hearing about this, is not going to want to purchase Monster Hunter 4 for 3DS, nor will they purchase any of Capcom's games. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Capcom has alienated an entire market with this move.

meanwhile, in Japan

The_Darkest_Red · Sep 13, 2011

GuiltySpank said:
We're not witnessing the decline of Nintendo, we're witnessing the decline of the dedicated mobile gaming device. We'll really see this confirmed once PS Vita flops.

Dedicated mobile gaming is fast becoming a niche.

Comment bookmarked.

BGBW · Sep 13, 2011

krypt0nian said:
Nintendo is just learning what it's like to be on the shit end of the stick news-wise, and how hard it is to come back from a fall.

"Just learning"?

Nuclear Muffin · Sep 13, 2011

Fafalada said:
Yea that would be probably more like this: http://asia.gamespot.com/news/6276708.html
160 titles, 20M total sales -> 100k average per title.

Oh and Gameloft are one of the biggest developers out there on iOS (backed by some of the strongest marketing power of any iOS dev) and make most of their sales by selling their games at $0.99.

Being generous and assuming the average price of sale was $3, you'd be looking at $60 million being generated by 160 games.

That's pathetic.

To better show how pathetic this app store revenue is in comparison to traditional handhelds, let's do a quick and dirty comparison.

As of July 7th (Apple WWDC Keynote) The iOS App Store had generated $3.6 Billion ($2.5 Billion paid to developers after Apple's 30% cut) in revenue in total since its launch in 2008.

Mario Kart DS alone has generated $621 million in revenue (20.70 million units sold as of December 2010 @ $30)

One DS game alone has generated over one fifth of the revenue generated by the entire App Store over the course of its history (Oh and that includes all non game Apps as well)

Starwolf_UK · Sep 13, 2011

Benedict said:
Maybe they should do like SEGA and start making these, but with Nintendo games. I woud probably buy a few anyway...

Have you heard those things? Seriously the sound emulation on those Genesis on a chip systems leaves something to be desired.

That said for money its an even worse than iOS app store. How it works is external company makes device and begs SEGA for games. SEGA give them the usual junk (devalued by being on 50 co9mpilations/such systems in the last decade) and a seal of approval at a price of $x.

Now given Nintendo likes to sell SNES games for $8-$30 and $x would have to be a lot smaller and for muptiple games, they wouldn't do it.

If you mean systems that can play SNES/NES carts. Such things have existed for years. They're getting pretty good now (as in speical chip games work properly).

Live Free or Die · Sep 13, 2011

They're right. The 3DS has failed horribly. Nintendo will be going third party in the next 2-3 years.

Tuck · Sep 13, 2011

Still can't believe investors want them to put their games on iOS and Android.

Mind bogglingly stupid idea.

SovanJedi · Sep 13, 2011

SmokyDave said:
I'm sorry to hear that. Which game?

It was a second sequel to our Flash game series "Knightfall". It's a shame as me and my two coworkers really went out of our way to make it value for money, considering some of the negatives that would immediately be associated with such a title (e.g. "Free Flash game turned into pay-for game", lengthy RPG-like on system full to the brim with casual games). There was a shit-ton of content for sure, especially for an iPhone game.

Without going into specific numbers (which would make you a nosey Parker) the game didn't even make a tenth of its developer cost back for our publisher.

Cosmozone · Sep 13, 2011

They were just disappointed that there was no Mario Phone.

Ydahs · Sep 13, 2011

Also, Monster Hunter 3 already topped the Amazon charts.

Yeah, 3DS is going to be huge this Christmas.

devildog820 · Sep 13, 2011

StevieP said:
I'm sorry, are you suggesting that The Legend of Zelda is only worth as much as Cut the Rope? There are lots of examples of bad pricing on both e-stores, mind you, but making a blanket statement like "virtual console games should only be a dollar" seems disingenuous.

Comparing $1 to $1 is comparing apples and oranges in this case. Zelda is worth a $1, maybe $2 to a large portion of impulse buyers. Cut the Rope is still in it's first run, if you will. Zelda has already made its money and converting it to other platforms is techinically easy nowadays. $1 makes it an impulse buy. It also draws more people into using the eShop where they might purchase current content and drive more game sales.

Riposte · Sep 13, 2011

Funny enough Cave's head has lamented selling their games for a relatively low price(not only on iOs), because he feels they are worth more.

Has Cave really seen much success on iOs? Almost no one ever talks about it. I would suspect it is too much of a game for what most of the market wants to be a success on the level of the trash and the genre is already quite esoteric even among more experienced gamers. Can you credit feed in these games? That would kill the longevity, but without it you'd put off anyone who doesn't want to put in an effort.

Phoenician_Viking · Sep 13, 2011

wsippel said:
Merchandising is actually included in that $50 million figure as far as I know.

LOL no. Angry bird the game made them 50$ million. Their merchandise is selling like hot cake.

SmokyDave said:
Do we even know if that number includes Angry Birds Rio or Angry Birds Seasons?

I don´t know about this. I think when they talk about angry bird they talk about all versions. But i am not sure.

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