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[Digital Foundry] Batman Arkham City PS4 Pro: What If Every Game Got A Pro Upgrade?

Shin

Banned
I'm sorry if this comes across as blunt but the reason you don't see why Sony don't "just include a switch" is that, like most people, you don't understand the complexities of a walled garden hardware/software setup like this (I also include myself in this category).

It's easy to think "oh they could just do X" but in reality if it were simple they probably would have done it.

And yet Microsoft did it with the One S, it's one of those choices where what MS is doing a lot better. Not to mention backward compatibility with 360? games.
I get what Sony is trying to do, but I think people would have liked to see their old games run better on the Pro. Both sides have their + and - , such a pain in the ass.
 
Sony should really make it an option. Leave if off by default with a warning if they still want to play it safe, but it should be there.
 
That's not a Cpu bottleneck, that's a bad port Leadbetter.....This port reminds me of Zoe1 and 2 on the PS3. Give Hexadrive this port to fix and we shall see how it will transform. It's like DF have never seen a bad port before...

Also, I want more than framerate improvements in my games. If these games ought to be pro patched, I want a much higher resolution with graphical improvements. I want better AA and AF. The pro can handle these games at 2160p checkerboard 60fps. These ports are just bad.

I can't believe Leadbetter is using a video of a bad port to make a point, this is insane....especially one where the framerate unlock on Pro should not have happened, just goes to show how bad these games were coded.

He acknowledges the game is badly optimized, what's wrong with mentioning that the CPU is a bottleneck?

Even a bad port could still be CPU bound, hence the reason why the Pro sees boost up-to 30% likely hinting at the game being CPU-bound.

2 cores could be doing work and the other 5 could be playing hopscotch, this game most likely isn't taking full advantage of the 7 available CPU cores so an increase to the clock-speed improves the performance in CPU-bound scenarios.

I trust Cerny, the creator of this console and it's iteration, more than I trust Leadbetter in this case.

And please stop comparing a 7 % boost to the Pro man, not a good look. Also, don't automatically assume games will run better on Scorpio without any additional work.

He said that when he asked Sony if they tested with the higher clocks they supposedly didn't, that could be why he's persistent on seeing standard PS4 games get access to the Pro's hardware.

Cerny probably knows what's best, some games will likely be fine while accessing the Pro's hardware, whilst others may develop new problems, so enabling all games to have access to the Pro's hardware may not the that great of an idea, however as Kaze2212 proposed in this thread providing a menu to allow games access to the Pro's hardware could be a good idea. Although we don't know how Sony have designed their OS and how Software is designed for the Pro, it may not be a simple toggle to allow games to access the new hardware other than the CPU.

Until Dawn and Killzone Shadow Fall could definitely benefit from the additional CPU and GPU power, or just one or the other while hopefully not breaking anything, those games have shown themselves to be scalable and capable of higher frame rates as they both feature unlocked frame-rates.

Because if PS4 Pro did the same thing as Xbox One S it wouldn't be just 1-7 FPS difference in some online games you could end up with some games at 30fps on PS4 while the game on PS4 Pro is jumping up around 50 & 60 fps with no way to get things back under control unless the dev patch the game & if they have to patch games to fix them they might as well do a pro patch.

Yeah that's definitely another thing to consider as-well.
 

onQ123

Member
And yet Microsoft did it with the One S, it's one of those choices where what MS is doing a lot better. Not to mention backward compatibility with 360? games.
I get what Sony is trying to do, but I think people would have liked to see their old games run better on the Pro. Both sides have their + and - , such a pain in the ass.


Because if PS4 Pro did the same thing as Xbox One S it wouldn't be just 1-7 FPS difference in some online games you could end up with some games at 30fps on PS4 while the game on PS4 Pro is jumping up around 50 & 60 fps with no way to get things back under control unless the dev patch the game & if they have to patch games to fix them they might as well do a pro patch.
 

brawly

Member
Because if PS4 Pro did the same thing as Xbox One S it wouldn't be just 1-7 FPS difference in some online games you could end up with some games at 30fps on PS4 while the game on PS4 Pro is jumping up around 50 & 60 fps with no way to get things back under control unless the dev patch the game & if they have to patch games to fix them they might as well do a pro patch.

That's why framerate caps exist.
 
Where do I sign for an option to unlock PS4 Pro power for every game? I don't see how it can possibly hurt, and it'd make the thing a vastly more appealing purchase. Make it clear that the user is doing it at their own risk, "may be unintended consequences", etc etc; just let me do it.
 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
I just finished it and the framerate was mostly fantastic.

It crashed at least 4 times though, so be wary of that.

Did Arkham Knight get a Pro patch or just Arkham City?

I wish, that would be even bigger than a Bloodborne patch to me.
 
Where do I sign for an option to unlock PS4 Pro power for every game? I don't see how it can possibly hurt, and it'd make the thing a vastly more appealing purchase. Make it clear that the user is doing it at their own risk, "may be unintended consequences", etc etc; just let me do it.

The reason people buy consoles (well, one of the big reasons) is predictable stability. A big, untested change in hardware could easily reveal bugs that the developers were unaware of, and Sony aren't willing to take the risk. Regardless of how much they made it clear that "this is on you, if it fucks up don't come crying to us", people would do exactly that. They'd post videos and screenshots of broken shit. And how would you control multiplayer games so that Pro players don't have a higher frame rate advantage?

I agree that it seems like a wasted opportunity. Seems like Sony could incentivize publishers to release a "pro patch" that is literally just setting the Pro mode flag and doing nothing else, assuming the developers have done some testing on their own to verify nothing breaks.
 

TLZ

Banned
And yet Microsoft did it with the One S, it's one of those choices where what MS is doing a lot better. Not to mention backward compatibility with 360? games.
I get what Sony is trying to do, but I think people would have liked to see their old games run better on the Pro.

You mean expected.
 

brawly

Member
Which would defeat the purpose of people wanting to be able to use the extra power of the PS4 Pro in games with unlocked frame rates,

If it's unlocked then that means it targets 60fps and there's no problem with the Pro running better.

If it's capped then there still could be benefits, like Witcher running locked at 30.
 

Anung

Un Rama
Playing it on my pro now and while it still can be all over the place (especially in the hub) the extra frames are a step up from the base PS4. It feels way better.

I'd be open to some brute force improvements in base games. Kind of silly that Sony wouldn't want their new machine in the best possible light.
 

Arttemis

Member
This is what I was saying prelaunch. There should be a user-toggled switch within the PS4 Pro settings that allows users to run non-Pro software at current stock speeds, and an option to run at the upclocked CPU speed with increased GPU speeds as well.

There might as well be an option to run Pro patched software at base or upgraded-base speeds as well.
 
The reason people buy consoles (well, one of the big reasons) is predictable stability. A big, untested change in hardware could easily reveal bugs that the developers were unaware of, and Sony aren't willing to take the risk. Regardless of how much they made it clear that "this is on you, if it fucks up don't come crying to us", people would do exactly that. They'd post videos and screenshots of broken shit. And how would you control multiplayer games so that Pro players don't have a higher frame rate advantage?

Again, option. Hide it away eight levels deep in the Settings menu; so deep no casual consumer could ever find it. Make the user sign a EULA waving any right to complain or whatever. Disable Sharing when it's enabled. Disable online play. I don't know, just make it an option.
 

onQ123

Member
Y'all think it would be better for all games to brute force better performance on PS4 Pro but the truth is it would be worse because all the big upgrades that we have seen in the games that have been patched would be just small upgrades & devs wouldn't be wasting their time actually making the best of PS4 Pro hardware.
 

firelogic

Member
I don't see why Sony couldn't just include a switch to allow full capabilities in unpatched games, even if it was just for a whitelisted few. Even the slight CPU bump would make a difference in some CPU limited games like unity

Because then there'd be broken games and you'd be complaining about that instead. I mean really. Sony isn't stupid. If all they had to do is switch the full capabilities of the Pro on for regular unpatched PS4 games and everything was fantastic, they'd do it. It would sell more Pro consoles. They'd make more money. It'd be an added feature they could list in press materials and on the box.

-unpatched games run better!
-patched games run even better!
-new games with Pro mode built in run even better than that!
 

Izuna

Banned
Y'all think it would be better for all games to brute force better performance on PS4 Pro but the truth is it would be worse because all the big upgrades that we have seen in the games that have been patched would be just small upgrades & devs wouldn't be wasting their time actually making the best of PS4 Pro hardware.

Except there are a ton of games that seem to never receive any upgrades.

This is the thing with Scorpio, I don't expect something like Crimson Dragon to receive an update, but I'd love to play it with smooth performance.

~

It'd funny if the real reason was because you'd just end up with Arkham City problems, where certain games don't really help too much in some games.
 

rambis

Banned
And yet Microsoft did it with the One S, it's one of those choices where what MS is doing a lot better. Not to mention backward compatibility with 360? games.
I get what Sony is trying to do, but I think people would have liked to see their old games run better on the Pro. Both sides have their + and - , such a pain in the ass.

People need to quit saying this. They arent comparable. The 1S is basically a very small upclock, PS4P is over twice the amount of resources. I doubt the scorpio will let games run wild.
That's why framerate caps exist.
Which would require a patch if its not already the method used.
 
What's wrong with allowing a small percentage more like the Xbox One S. Unleashing 4.14 tflops wouldn't be a good idea for every game but you could be running slightly higher clock than OG PS4.
 
Yea this is how it should have been, games running at an unlocked framerate or variable framerate should be running better by default even without any updates or patch....
But that doesn't happen on Xbox One S either, even with the same hardware at a much smaller upclock.

This here is not a hardware issue, unless the game was made to run at specific clock speeds you won't find any visual glitches. It would be the equivalent of running the same game on the same OS and machine with a better GPU.
Except PC games are "pre-patched", in a sense. They're designed and tested for variable hardware, and contain tons of user options to tailor the experience. And yet they still sometimes have glitches or abnormal performance on particular hardware.
 

UrbanRats

Member
I don't get why they didn't do like the XboxOneS and let the uncap framerate go free, and THEN include a "Compatibility Mode" where you actually turn off half the GPU as a safety net.
It's not like with HDR, 4:2:2 and all the other bullshit, it's a simple piece of HW to use for the every day guy, anyway.
 
Give people the option at the OS level. Allow for the user to place a checkmark for the games that work/they want, leave it unchecked for games that break/they don't want. Put warning screens everywhere to cover your ass.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
I don't get why they didn't do like the XboxOneS and let the uncap framerate go free, and THEN include a "Compatibility Mode" where you actually turn off half the GPU as a safety net.
It's not like with HDR, 4:2:2 and all the other bullshit, it's a simple piece of HW to use for the every day guy, anyway.
Perhaps they could encourage incentivize developers in some way to support older games? That might be interesting.
 

ymgve

Member
Give people the option at the OS level. Allow for the user to place a checkmark for the games that work/they want, leave it unchecked for games that break/they don't want. Put warning screens everywhere to cover your ass.

Don't make it an OS level toggle, that will only lead to problems when people forget they have it on. Instead, force people to press the option button with the game tile active and have "Start in Pro mode" and "Start in PS4 mode" choices that they have to pick every time.

Also a big fat red warning screen that they are running the game in an unsupported mode at their own risk. Every time.
 

No_Style

Member
This is what I was saying prelaunch. There should be a user-toggled switch within the PS4 Pro settings that allows users to run non-Pro software at current stock speeds, and an option to run at the upclocked CPU speed with increased GPU speeds as well.

There might as well be an option to run Pro patched software at base or upgraded-base speeds as well.

I agree with all of this. Especially the last point if we're going to see more titles with Pro modes suffering performance dips.
 
Don't make it an OS level toggle, that will only lead to problems when people forget they have it on. Instead, force people to press the option button with the game tile active and have "Start in Pro mode" and "Start in PS4 mode" choices that they have to pick every time.

Also a big fat red warning screen that they are running the game in an unsupported mode at their own risk. Every time.

So...still at the OS level then. And needlessly annoying. That sucks.

I think they'll get the point after the first time. Just do it every time the user plays a new game/the system detects a new game for the first time. Don't treat your customers like idiots.
 

cakely

Member
Because then there'd be broken games and you'd be complaining about that instead. I mean really. Sony isn't stupid. If all they had to do is switch the full capabilities of the Pro on for regular unpatched PS4 games and everything was fantastic, they'd do it. It would sell more Pro consoles. They'd make more money. It'd be an added feature they could list in press materials and on the box.

-unpatched games run better!
-patched games run even better!
-new games with Pro mode built in run even better than that!

Yes, seriously.

Sony made the correct choice here. Absolute 100% compatibility with old PS4 titles (of which there are over 1100), and then pro modes for all new games going forward.

I have a decent-sized library of games for the PS4 and it's nice to just not worry if any of them are going to have BC-style "issues".
 

horkrux

Member
Richard Logic: MS tell us that it will not be a difference between Xbox One games on Xbox One & Xbox One S but we found a few games that have 1 to 7 frames per second boost on Xbox One S. "This is amazing all games are better on Xbox One S"

Also Richard Logic: Sony tells us that it will not be a difference between unpatched PS4 games on PS4 & PS4 Pro "All un patched games will run the same on PS4 & PS4 Pro" Finds game that runs 15 FPS & more over based PS4. "Developer mistake"

There is no reason why Project Cars would only run better on XBOS, but not on PS4 Pro if what you're suggesting was true.
 
I'm very interested to see how this situation is handled on Scorpio. We already have quotes from Phil Spencer saying that we will see advantages to running XB1 games like Halo 5 on the new console (full resolution) so you'd think that same reasoning would apply to FPS but we'll have to see.
 

Izuna

Banned
Yes, seriously.

Sony made the correct choice here. Absolute 100% compatibility with old PS4 titles (of which there are over 1100), and then pro modes for all new games going forward.

I have a decent-sized library of games for the PS4 and it's nice to just not worry if any of them are going to have BC-style "issues".

Oh they for certain did not make the correct decision at all. The worse thing is, is that with the few games where it performs better on the PS4, the option isn't there either.

The option to play with a "Normal Mode" and "Pro-Mode" would be nice. Where Pro-Mode for unpatched games would say that it is untested.
 

andshrew

Member
I'm very interested to see how this situation is handled on Scorpio. We already have quotes from Phil Spencer saying that we will see advantages to running XB1 games like Halo 5 on the new console (full resolution) you'd think that same reasoning would apply to FPS but we'll have to see.

Almost certainly the same as how it works on the S, just on a greater scale. The extra resource will just be available for the system to use.
 

aadiboy

Member
I don't think anything on a console should be done "at the user's risk". That goes against the entire point of a console. Yes, there are people who would know what they are doing, but there are also dumbasses who could fuck themselves over if they got access to those kinds of settings. I'm assuming that Sony thinks it's too much of a headache to deal with those people, so it's better to leave those choices in the hands of the developers.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
dark10x said:
Won't be a real issue going forward, I'd imagine since most new games should support the system.
You can safely omit "most". Running in "Base" mode on a Pro has not been an option for any game for about 1-2months now. All of them are also tested on both systems during submission - there's nothing accidental about any of it.
 

Blackthorn

"hello?" "this is vagina"
Surely there's a developer here who can offer some insight as to why Xbox games can scale with more powerful hardware while PS4 games might not be able to?
 
Has anybody considered it may actually down to the developer environment and how the PS4 system library and drivers interact with the hardware? Their may be specific optimisations in the PS4's dev api that are (hate to use this term) more close to the 'metal' i.e specific code or library code is more tightly wired to specific timing in the base hardware, hence the very strict requirements for the base compatibility mode. Enabling PRO mode on base software without optimisation might be fine 9.9/10 times with most software but their may be edge cases.

The Xbox One may have more higher level hyper-visor operating system environment which while very optimised to give low level performance is less tied to specific hardware timings clocks etc, hence why MS approach to Scorpio is different, and they see their future hardware as breaking the generation jump because the development libraries are written with this in mind. This allows there software to be much more easily ported to PC and possibly in the future to the next console iteration after Scorpio if it uses a very different architecture. Essentially just like Windows, games run across a plethora of different hardware types.

Just a thought?
I don't think any developer these days ties any optimization to specific hardware timing, but even if that's the case, that's something that sony should've changed ages ago.

The performance gains from these kind of optimizations are likely minimal compared to what a good compiler can do anyway, and the possible drawbacks are much bigger, not just for upgrading, but even in a primarily multiplatform development scenario.

Though if it's indeed something on the api side I suspect sony will try to improve sooner rather than later. I can't imagine they keeping it when the biggest competitor is moving to a library oriented platform, where all your purchases are playable on many different hardware.
 

cakely

Member
Oh they for certain did not make the correct decision at all. The worse thing is, is that with the few games where it performs better on the PS4, the option isn't there either.

The option to play with a "Normal Mode" and "Pro-Mode" would be nice. Where Pro-Mode for unpatched games would say that it is untested.

Yep, I disagree with you.

Can you imagine all the GAF posts about slightly broken PS4 games on the Pro? I sure can.
 

Izuna

Banned
Yep, I disagree with you.

Can you imagine all the GAF posts about slightly broken PS4 games on the Pro? I sure can.

But they wouldn't be broken though. It would be the same people, like yourself, telling everyone else that they can just use the Base PS4 mode instead until a game gets patched.

There would be a lot MORE good news coming out of GAF if shit like Bloodborne played great etc.
 
Richard Logic: MS tell us that it will not be a difference between Xbox One games on Xbox One & Xbox One S but we found a few games that have 1 to 7 frames per second boost on Xbox One S. "This is amazing all games are better on Xbox One S"

Also Richard Logic: Sony tells us that it will not be a difference between unpatched PS4 games on PS4 & PS4 Pro "All un patched games will run the same on PS4 & PS4 Pro" Finds game that runs 15 FPS & more over based PS4. "Developer mistake"

One specific game having any improvements without patching, versus having all the games except for the ones that have locked framerate, or that the framerate drops because of the cpu is clearly not the same thing.

And the comparison is only going to get uglier when scorpio improves both cpu and gpu bottlenecks from unpatched games.
 

ghibli99

Member
I'm all for it, even if it's experimental. But damn, these games run terribly on PS4. These are 5-7 year old games, and their performance looks far worse than on my old i7-920/GTX 670 combo. :(
 
Almost certainly the same as how it works on the S, just on a greater scale. The extra resource will just be available for the system to use.

Sure, but I wonder if those enhancements will just be limited to GPU tasks or have some another limitation that would have the Scorpio run XB1 games at higher resolutions for dynamic res games but still get similar performance (FPS) to a stock console. Just found it odd that it was dynamic resolution, mentioned in the interview, as an enhancement over a raw increase in FPS; then again a quote about a console that was 1 1/2 years away from launching at the time can't be expected to cover all the bases either.
 
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