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SNES vs Genesis Sound

Synth

Member
In an alternate universe, where SEGA put a cowbell into the Genesis:

My point being that the SNES, seen as a developers canvas to express their vision of a game, is far better suited. They are both heavily compromised machines compared by today's standards, but it wasn't all a retro-laugh at the time. The SNES's ability to create fitting background music for about every game scenario with an interface understandable to musicians without engineering or programming experience, is most probably the reason there's so little bad music on the system.
Compare that to the extensive knowledge of the hardware needed by the composer to create music matching the genesis's sound chips. The process is just wrong from the beginning. Creating music should be creative task, not an engineering task and the SNES was far ahead of the genesis in that regard.

This thread also ignores that most examples of good genesis music use the PCM channel, which leaves the actual game to FM-ploings and boings as SFX.

But a cowbell isn't known for its flexibility... which is exactly why you used it as a substitute to make the statement sound absurd.

The skills required to utilise a device isn't a defining factor of how good it is. It can definitely increase the average output, but something isn't bad simply because most people have no clue how to use it. If the Genesis were released today, then far more musicians would be able to achieve better results, as the proliferation of software studios, VSTs and the like would mean that people would be more exposed to the concepts of working with a synth, whilst at the time sound engineering was part of few people's skillsets.

I would agree that the SNES for the time was better suited for the industry and what it required... but I also see it as the worse actual device when it comes to audio. The Genesis has continued to sound better as time has passed and the average person's audio equipment has improved. The SNES however, removed from the crappy mono TV speakers that most people would have connected it to at the time, now reveals clearly all that it lacks in clarity and range. Emulation has somewhat disguised this, as people will rarely ever actually hear a SNES or a Genesis today, but t Genesis has a notably better output, where the music is still sufficient as it, whereas you'd basically have to remaster anything a SNES put out, to make it even remotely acceptable quality today.
 
Oh man this thread gets bumped up every so often, it's hilarious.

I'll admit, the SNES has a certain timbre that screams "SUPER NINTENDO!" and it certainly was great for the time and for the price, but it has aged.

The Genesis was an actual instrument like the NES or Gameboy and I love to hear people work with those electronic noises to create something magical.
 

lazygecko

Member
In an alternate universe, where SEGA put a cowbell into the Genesis:



My point being that the SNES, seen as a developers canvas to express their vision of a game, is far better suited. They are both heavily compromised machines compared by today's standards, but it wasn't all a retro-laugh at the time. The SNES's ability to create fitting background music for about every game scenario with an interface understandable to musicians without engineering or programming experience, is most probably the reason there's so little bad music on the system.
Compare that to the extensive knowledge of the hardware needed by the composer to create music matching the genesis's sound chips. The process is just wrong from the beginning. Creating music should be creative task, not an engineering task and the SNES was far ahead of the genesis in that regard.

This thread also ignores that most examples of good genesis music use the PCM channel, which leaves the actual game to FM-ploings and boings as SFX.

Knowledge and toolsets for working with PCM was likewise far more limited back in the early 90's, especially when you had to work with some rather unique challenges related to the SPC limitations. SNES soundtracks are littered with mistakes and artifacts stemming from this (although you may not notice or care that much if you're not much of a discerning listener). In general people vastly underestimate just how many creative roadblocks you'll run into without the proper experience and how clever you had to be to get the most out of what you had to work with.

You can't really do stuff like put a "normal" acoustic piano sample into that amount of memory and expect it to work. You'd have to employ more creative workarounds, like getting rid of most of the natural decay, and then mask the void left by that by filling it in with echo notes (which you can hear in Chrono Trigger). Working with loop points for samples is already a pretty damn surgical procedure in itself (and I doubt anyone had the luxury of things like software crossfade macros to use back then), and the SPC adds additional challenges on top of this since the .brr 4-bit compression format requires you to set those loop points in multiples of 16, rather than at any sample point you want. Out of this problem you often get either audible clicking artifacts because you can't get the amplitude levels of the start and end points to line up, or the sample goes out of tune as the loop is so fast that it shifts the frequency. Oh, and you also need to be careful that there aren't any too pronounced fluctuations in volume inside the loop, or otherwise you'll end up with amplitude modulation artifacts at higher frequencies which will produce additional inharmonic tones.

These are just some of the practical problems composers and/or sound engineers had to face when working with the system.
 

00ich

Member
I didn't realise all the composers had to code essentially to the metal when composing, and that no-one bothered to create sound drivers with which people can compose.

Oh, wait. People did. Sega even released their own library to third party developers as well (just like Nintendo), called GEMS.

GEMS was also the secret sauce behind the fart machine.
There are not many good sounding GEMS title.
(Comix Zone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGrkN6NaN5w)

It seems to be the child of the two Segas. Japan had SMPS and SoA had GEMS in their dev kits. SMPS needed a music-programmer and GEMS had Midi(-like?) functionality but was responsible for the perception "Genesis can't play music".

In hindsight it was good for distorted e-guitars and unapologetic synth sound (Comix Zone and Spot), but it exposed only all small subset of what the Genesis was capable of and didn't really provide a safe minimum standard. Just look how often Sega didn't even use it themselves.

Compare that to Nintendo, where Mario World, Zelda, Metroid and some good third party titles like Actraiser or Super Adventure Island could use the same engine and still sound nothing alike. Not even low budget license-trash games like Tom&Jerry or Barbie Supermodel sounded bad.

As an example of a true GEMS gem here's SoA's Sonic Spinball:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85URL8w2nYk
 

amardilo

Member
Growing up I really liked some of the music in Genesis/Mega Drive games. Some of my favourites are:

Streets of Rage
Intro - https://youtu.be/f10CtaCoeVI
Stage 1 - https://youtu.be/5bf-EGuMfag
Boss - https://youtu.be/ruRk1O-dH-c

The Revenge of Shinobi
Intro - https://youtu.be/lEc0gAEIDUM
https://youtu.be/JWPNxSD9YNY
https://youtu.be/xrNGaClSU20
https://youtu.be/jqcl7M3WtDk
https://youtu.be/GWUgVAIt98Q

Desert Strike
Intro - https://youtu.be/o_vf-E1031c

Robocop Versus Terminator
https://youtu.be/H9hi5NYBZOM

Not sure if it's allowed (as it's not original) but I liked the Moonwalker soundtrack on the console too - https://youtu.be/sB_mOsI-ddM

There are other really good games for music too like Streets of Rage 2 but I never played that growing up so I didn't include it.
 
00ich, you've got some faulty memory or haven't heard enough coming straight from real hardware units if you really think there's "so little bad music" on Ninty's 16-bit. Both platforms host plenty of low tier efforts, and while I can't disagree with the idea that there are some real lows on Sega 16-bit hardware, if we were to line up a list of the top offerrings from each library, things wouldn't be nearly as lopsided nor quite as specialized or limited to certain types of music as you make it out to be. Also, picking out a standout abrasive-sounding track from a mediocre OST recorded from inaccurate emulation isn't exactly a strong case being made for Yamaha FM sound in Sega's machine being inferior to the Sony sampler in Ninty's box.

Seriously, guys. If you wanna link to Sega MD/Genesis game audio, try and source it from a real hardware recording as emulation stuff that makes up 98% of what's available on the internet is still not correct across so many of its best and worst. I suggest subscribing to DUSTINODELLOFFICIAL on YouTube for truly representative captures.

Many Japanese devs had a strong background in FM game music going back to the mid-'80s arcade, console enhancement hardware, and home computer scene, so there's a really overwhelmingly strong representation of the best FM sound coming from there with a greater emphasis on getting in there to put an effort at a sound they want to achieve, but that happened elsewhere enough to know that it's still always going to be down to experience and talent over the limits of hardware, default software, and storage size.
 

lazygecko

Member
GEMS was also the secret sauce behind the fart machine.
There are not many good sounding GEMS title.
(Comix Zone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGrkN6NaN5w)

It seems to be the child of the two Segas. Japan had SMPS and SoA had GEMS in their dev kits. SMPS needed a music-programmer and GEMS had Midi(-like?) functionality but was responsible for the perception "Genesis can't play music".

In hindsight it was good for distorted e-guitars and unapologetic synth sound (Comix Zone and Spot), but it exposed only all small subset of what the Genesis was capable of and didn't really provide a safe minimum standard. Just look how often Sega didn't even use it themselves.

Compare that to Nintendo, where Mario World, Zelda, Metroid and some good third party titles like Actraiser or Super Adventure Island could use the same engine and still sound nothing alike. Not even low budget license-trash games like Tom&Jerry or Barbie Supermodel sounded bad.

As an example of a true GEMS gem here's SoA's Sonic Spinball:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85URL8w2nYk

There is nothing inherent about GEMS relating to the quality of the music. All it did was lower the bar of entry. In Japan and Europe, composers often had coding experience (or rather in the case of Japan, they often had a dedicated sound programmer in charge of implementing the music the composer wrote). The same kind of culture was not in place in the American industry, where composers often rather gravitated towards middleware solutions so they didn't need to get bogged down with the technical stuff that didn't really interest them in the first place.
 

Opa-Pa

Member
The 16-bit Audiophile Project is so great, it's made me appreciate the Genesis' goodness even more. The difference between real hardware and emulation sound is insane in some cases.
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
Now I wanna hear what Phantasy Star IV sounds like on real HW, I've only really heard the emulation provided by Genesis Plus GX and the game sounds incredible that way, given how the actual hardware seems to provide softer more pleasing audio that would be awesome to hear, reading around it seems to have the most accurate audio emulation at least? (Not that I'd expect the RA crew to not pick the best emulation cores)
 

lazygecko

Member
Paprium is using a custom expansion chip though which adds separate multi-channel stereo sample playback. Can't do that on stock hardware.
 
Paprium is using a custom expansion chip though which adds separate multi-channel stereo sample playback. Can't do that on stock hardware.

So, a form of copy protection and way to retain the value of the carts they have to sell, until someone can figure out how to properly emulate it, anyway. Smart. First time for a cart-based audio enhancement for a Sega 16-bit title, right?
 
So, a form of copy protection and way to retain the value of the carts they have to sell, until someone can figure out how to properly emulate it, anyway. Smart. First time for a cart-based audio enhancement for a Sega 16-bit title, right?

Didn't Pier Solar take a while to emulate just because of the rom size? I know the everdrive doesn't allow roms larger than a certain size for this reason unless that's changed in later versions.
 

kinggroin

Banned
I wonder if a lot of people realize that the SNES is often helped in emulation and the MD often harmed. When you only listen to youtube videos, you don't get the whole picture.

It sounded more full on the real hardeare, but still just as grating and noisy and twangy.
 

jett

D-Member
Spring Yard Zone (Rearranged)

Uses channel 3 extension for more harmony, as well as more expressive sequencing.

66110.gif


This is really impressive.
 
I'm sure Paprium will eventually see action on other platforms same as most---but more power to them for finally, hopefully pulling this off as they pretty well need to clinch this given the tremendous ups and downs on Pier Solar, all the time up to now, their company staff shakeups, etc----the music HAS to be a lock though~
 

Shaneus

Member
So, a form of copy protection and way to retain the value of the carts they have to sell, until someone can figure out how to properly emulate it, anyway. Smart. First time for a cart-based audio enhancement for a Sega 16-bit title, right?
Ah, dang. Explains why it's so expensive! I wonder if anyone knows what hardware it is?

And it's there a way to get the game any cheaper than $69US (or whatever the base price is)?
 

IrishNinja

Member
Didn't Pier Solar take a while to emulate just because of the rom size? I know the everdrive doesn't allow roms larger than a certain size for this reason unless that's changed in later versions.

i believe later versions do, could be wrong? haven't tried yet
 

HaL64

Member
Paprium is using a custom expansion chip though which adds separate multi-channel stereo sample playback. Can't do that on stock hardware.

Yeah I kinda don't like that they are doing that. It's unnecessary. The music is great, but it makes it sound like an Amiga style MOD which is not the Genesis at all.
 

dogen

Member
Yeah I kinda don't like that they are doing that. It's unnecessary. The music is great, but it makes it sound like an Amiga style MOD which is not the Genesis at all.

IIRC, they've said that the PCM is mostly used for sound effects and drums.
 

McCHitman

Banned
SNES was overall better, but it's not the same. It's all sampled sounds. Hence all the fanfare and slapbass haha.

Genesis had a way more tinny, grungy, dirty sound. But really good Genesis music is really good. Yuzo Kashiro took advantage of that hardware well. Take a listen to the Streets of Rage 2 sound track.
 
SNES was overall better, but it's not the same. It's all sampled sounds. Hence all the fanfare and slapbass haha.

Genesis had a way more tinny, grungy, dirty sound. But really good Genesis music is really good. Yuzo Kashiro took advantage of that hardware well. Take a listen to the Streets of Rage 2 sound track.

hell-yeah-andy-samberg-cat-high-five-demotivational-poster-.jpg


Mega Drive had such a distinctive sound chip and Streets of Rage 2 was the best 16 bit soundtrack
 
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