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Video Games Are Better Without Stories
- Thread starter RedlineRonin
- Start date
So you're saying you're not saying it should, but you're saying it should.
He is on point.
He's right, but Uncharted 4 could definitely have used more "game".
Off-Kilter
Banned
Tell em Neil
More_Badass
Member
You are when you make broad concrete statements like that
Ans of course, define bad gameplay. Does Gone Home have bad gameplay because all you can do is walk around and interact?
He is on point.
Oh man nailed it! There is no need to limit what games should or should not do.
Muffin1611
Banned
The guy is completely and utterly wrong.
And he should play a Kojima game
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
Some games work better without them some games work better with them
Well yes since it didn't engage me. There is a reason why Walking Simulators is a negative term. Only a few exceptions aside, it a good term since it talks about games that focus so much on the story that it fails to make sure the gameplay isn't engaging enough to see that through.
Messofanego
Banned
Lord of Ostia
Member
I mean, you just said "stories should never come first". That is a judgement you are making based on your preferences. A lot of people don't share those preferences, to them story should come first. Also, "why should I play your game when I can watch the story on youtube" is like saying "why should I read your novel when I can just see the movie" or "why should I go see your film when I can just watch it free online". Its not the same experience.
More_Badass
Member
That doesn't make the gameplay bad. That just mean you didn't enjoy it
Alpha Phoenix
Member
It's fascinating how these articles are often written by non-gamers.
Well, i am not saying it for all games with stories, just with games with bad gameplay. Again, Gameplay should be top notch! We are playing a game aren't we? That should be completely obvious.
All that needs to be said.
He is on point.
No, you said stories should NEVER come first. That is completely different from what your saying now.
There are plenty of games that don't prioritize gameplay and prioritize story.
Gone Home felt amazing on first play, but on further replays, man, that house changed.
Second play, it felt like everyone who lived there had died and a sad, sickly atmosphere permeated every room. Then on the third play it got even worse. The house felt like it had always been empty. As if secret agents filled it with personal effects to create the illusion that anyone had lived there. Basically a massive spotlight on the artificiality of its construction.
Pretty wild emotional progression. If I had the desire I'd write an essay on it, especially since I'm positive that effect was unintentional.
Someone saying story is most important aspect of a game (to them) does not mean that they think gameplay can be total shit. But there are a lot of games that are considered to have so-so/lackluster gameplay with awesome stories that can still be highly engaging experiences thanks to that story (i.e. Planescape Torment)
MegaManTrigger
Banned
Already went wrong when I read:
"Film, television, and literature all tell them better. So why are games still obsessed with narrative?"
If that's the premise you choose to start the thesis with, then you're already falling on a very disingenuous argument. Primarily because 1) The aforementioned media also have their fair share of crappy stories, so you can't really say that one is better than the other and 2) The premise disregards the different ways in which each medium tells the story, and acts as if they are similar (especially further seen when Ian argues games will never take the stage with books/movies/etc).
Gets worse when instead of elaborating on the argument of how video games are better without story, the writer instead doubles down on environmental storytelling (which technically is still a form of storytelling, so that's a hypocritical stance to make), and makes guesses as to why games aspire to have story.
"Film, television, and literature all tell them better. So why are games still obsessed with narrative?"
If that's the premise you choose to start the thesis with, then you're already falling on a very disingenuous argument. Primarily because 1) The aforementioned media also have their fair share of crappy stories, so you can't really say that one is better than the other and 2) The premise disregards the different ways in which each medium tells the story, and acts as if they are similar (especially further seen when Ian argues games will never take the stage with books/movies/etc).
Gets worse when instead of elaborating on the argument of how video games are better without story, the writer instead doubles down on environmental storytelling (which technically is still a form of storytelling, so that's a hypocritical stance to make), and makes guesses as to why games aspire to have story.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
It's like with horror movies or fantasy films. They all attempt to deliver their premise over to the viewer, but not every single film stands out.
How many horror films do well in today's market? Sure, there are classic horror movies, but for the most part we don't see that many recent horror movies still being talked about today.
I have way more video game plots in my mind than modern day movies.
How has Hollywood kept plots fresh? I see so many horror movies and all of them deal with possession of a little girl or something. It's the Exorcist plot all over again. The Purge films remind me of State of Emergency on PS2. It just doesn't make any sense. State of Emergency didn't need a plot though.
If you actually dive into the world of horror games, you'll see creativity and storytelling throughout the world. It needs a story. It needs to make some kind of sense.
How many horror films do well in today's market? Sure, there are classic horror movies, but for the most part we don't see that many recent horror movies still being talked about today.
I have way more video game plots in my mind than modern day movies.
How has Hollywood kept plots fresh? I see so many horror movies and all of them deal with possession of a little girl or something. It's the Exorcist plot all over again. The Purge films remind me of State of Emergency on PS2. It just doesn't make any sense. State of Emergency didn't need a plot though.
If you actually dive into the world of horror games, you'll see creativity and storytelling throughout the world. It needs a story. It needs to make some kind of sense.
The most popular games in the world don't seem to have any story to them. And the games that do feature story, it's hard to not think that they could have probably worked better as a movie or tv show. There aren't that many games that i can think of where the story was unique enough to have only worked in a videogame. I think The Last Guardian was a case for a story that would have only worked in a videogame and the power it resonated...it was something else. I felt like I had just lost a buddy.
Very few games actually do things with the mechanics they offer. People are saying Nier Automata is a game with a great story, but the most powerful moment in that game doesn't come from a cutscene, a text log, or a QTE, it comes from a single gameplay decision. I have never seen a game do that before. It's something a movie or a novel can't ever do. It's something that comes from its own mechanics.
So, thinking about those things, I can kinda see where the author is coming from. I've played so many games tho and it's tough to say that games don't benefit from telling a story even if they have to fall back on tired Hollywood or literature tricks.
Very few games actually do things with the mechanics they offer. People are saying Nier Automata is a game with a great story, but the most powerful moment in that game doesn't come from a cutscene, a text log, or a QTE, it comes from a single gameplay decision. I have never seen a game do that before. It's something a movie or a novel can't ever do. It's something that comes from its own mechanics.
So, thinking about those things, I can kinda see where the author is coming from. I've played so many games tho and it's tough to say that games don't benefit from telling a story even if they have to fall back on tired Hollywood or literature tricks.
yes that is true. because that is obvious. Do i have to repeat myself? G...A..M..E. Gameplay should always come first. It is the thing most people play games for. I thought it should be a no brainer idea, but apparently not. Bad stories don't harm gameplay. Bad gameplay cannot be saved by good story.
ivan.k
Member
He is on point.
Ah, that guy who failed at being a movie director and turned Naughty Dog into "cinematic garbage" and "walking simulators" factory.
It's funny, my initial instinct is to shout "NOPE", but when I think my favourite games/games I would consider to be the best in the biz', they're all games with either little or no story.
Sure Druckmann comes at it from a certain point of view, but while the Last of Us may have had a great story (wasn't for me) - I found the actual GAME part of it extremely boring and annoying. I'd play Galaga over The Last Of Us any day of the week.
Sure Druckmann comes at it from a certain point of view, but while the Last of Us may have had a great story (wasn't for me) - I found the actual GAME part of it extremely boring and annoying. I'd play Galaga over The Last Of Us any day of the week.
What if the gameplay is the story, like say, the Phoenix Wright series?
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
I'm hoping this is a joke?
Those are exceptions to the rules, but yes..Phoenix Wright would have been improved if there was more game to it.
I mean, i don't even get mad and can see people not caring for stories in videogames. What he says in the article is straight up false, though. It comes from someone who clearly doesn't understand the strong points about the medium and also from someone who doesn't play a lot of videogames or has knowledge about what he's talking about. He's simply stating things that, uh, aren't true? Like someone who doesn't have the actual arguments and evidence to back up their point.
i'm not sure specifically which decision you're referring to, but all the powerful to me in that game were communicated via aesthetics that carry meaning in relation to a long series of other aesthetic decisions that, over the course of hours, were conveyed to players in the game's environments, cutscenes, dialogues, text, etc etc etc
Of course bad stories can affect enjoyment enough so that even good gameplay doesn't save the game.
ivan.k
Member
It's like I'm really on /v/
Primethius
Banned
What a pathetic post.
--
Article is flawed. Many have already pointed out several of the issues I have with it already so I'll say this: part of why I love gaming is the sheer variety of experiences it can bring. I'm not sure why the medium should espouse one style over another when it can accommodate a variety of them and excel as a result.
Ace Attorney games have as much "game" in them as they need.
How?
A surprising number of people DONT play games primarily for their gameplay but their general experiences that include a mishmash of things, their interactive systems being one part of these.
Are you the author of the article?
Infernostew
Member
What's strange is that when I was a kid growing up in the early 90s I was all about gameplay and didn't care about storytelling in games. But now, I would sacrifice gameplay elements for an amazing story if given the choice. The beautiful thing about gaming is that if the developers are talented they can have both great gameplay and storytelling in a single package.
I find this to be pretty ignorant and factually wrong. There are many different kinds of experiences in games that have little to know gameplay and put the story first. I mean, Dragon's Lair had you just move a joystick in a direction of a flash on the screen. Not to mention there are point and click adventure games, Telltale adventures that have minimal puzzles and even visual novels. Different people like different things so bad gameplay and even sometimes lack there of can be completely dependent on story.
I do not agree.
It would be nice if PW games relied a lot less on guess work and followed a bit more procedure to elements like presenting evidence. I cannot count on my fingers and toes how many times I knew the answer to the question being asked in a PW game but couldn't suss out HOW they wanted me to present the answer. It's why Ghost Trick is a way better game than any of the PW games, it's a great combination of both gameplay and story.
It would be nice if PW games relied a lot less on guess work and followed a bit more procedure to elements like presenting evidence. I cannot count on my fingers and toes how many times I knew the answer to the question being asked in a PW game but couldn't suss out HOW they wanted me to present the answer. It's why Ghost Trick is a way better game than any of the PW games, it's a great combination of both gameplay and story.
More_Badass
Member
Again, what makes gameplay bad?
Like back to Gone Home. Gone Home has perfect gameplay, because moving around and interaction is exactly what it is needed to effectively present the vision and experience the game presents
But transplant those same mechanics to say Crysis and the gameplay would be terrible because the goals of game can't be properly conveyed through such gameplay
Gameplay is good or bad on an individual basis, based on what that game needs to work. The context of a game defines the gameplay
Whether you enjoy the gameplay or not is another matter, but simply not enjoying or being engaging doesn't make the gameplay bad by design
FeenixRising
Banned
Gone Home is also a game that has no replayablity. After you are done in 1 hour or so..well what is there to do? I think that is also why it has a bad gameplay. One and done games will not be superior to games like Gone Home. There is a reason why the greatest games people are either gameplay centric or have stories that don't overtake the games.
Messofanego
Banned
This made me chuckle.
Innes McKendrick: can you believe folk are still arguing over whether there's a space in "videogames" at a time when publications think it's ok to write "3-D"
Innes McKendrick: can you believe folk are still arguing over whether there's a space in "videogames" at a time when publications think it's ok to write "3-D"
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