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Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest

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Log4Girlz

Member
Because he created the confrontation against the *gasp* recommendation of police. As neighborhood watch, you're opening up a big ass can of worms when you think you're above the law.

And this "self appointed" captain was 26 years old. He probably thought he was Batman.
 

Amakusa

Member
Really hope this guy gets put away, trigger happy son of a bitch had no right. I feel for the kids family and if I was his father, I'd be outside the fuckers house getting some answers one way or the other.
 

Verelios

Member
Okay, facts:

1. The kid was shot in the chest.
2. The kid is of African American descent.
3. The man had to explicitly get out of his car
4. The kid is now dead
5. No charges have been brought up against the man

Either way, it does not look like anything could make this look good for him. If it was me, and I had a gun in my face, I'm sure I'd probably stop whatever the hell I was doing doubly as fast. Especially in a gated neighborhood.

Edit: New Fact- Shit just got real. Account in the OP is actually accurate. All the apologists are eating crow right now, and the guy turns out to be a huge shit head. Oh man, sad news all around.
 

Log4Girlz

Member

Also, if you're black, only travel on foot during the day.

Really hope this guy gets put away, trigger happy son of a bitch had no right. I feel for the kids family and if I was his father, I'd be outside the fuckers house getting some answers one way or the other.

Ain't gonna happen. And if the father went outside the guys house demanding answers, he'll be face down in the grass dead too.
 
The chief said the police have met with Zimmerman on two to three separate occasions, and the there investigation should be wrapped up this week.

Sorry, this wording had me rolling, imagining the cops calling him up: "Gee, Mr. Zimmerman, we really hate to be a bother, and we know you're busy, but if it isn't too much of a dadgum inconvenience, would you terribly mind coming in to our offices again? You know, to talk about that black kid, err, incident? We just want to put this whole, ugly affair behind us..."
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
Also, if you're black, only travel on foot during the day.

Be sure to send a picture of yourself and a detailed letter of your intentions (along with a letter from a sponsor) to all members of Neighborhood Watch if you intend to be in a gated community as well.

2-3 days in advance if possible.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
Gee I don't know officer, I saw a black kid walking in the neighborhood, and you know as well as I do that's as suspicious as it gets. I called 911 and was told not to confront the individual, but you know, its not illegal to follow someone and harass them. Besides, if anything went wrong I have a gun...
 
Okay, facts:

1. The kid was shot in the chest.
2. The kid is of African American descent.
3. The man had to explicitly get out of his car


tons of stuff we know nothing about yet.


30. The kid is now dead
31. No charges have been brought up against the man

Either way, it does not look like anything could make this look good for him. If it was me, and I had a gun in my face, I'm sure I'd probably stop whatever the hell I was doing doubly as fast. Especially in a gated neighborhood.

Edit: New Fact- Shit just got real. Account in the OP is actually accurate. All the apologists are eating crow right now, and the guy turns out to be a huge shit head. Oh man, sad news all around.


Fixed
 

Derwind

Member
What I don't get is how people ignore four things that were outlined in this case:

1. The neighbourhood watch individual called the cops on a kid with nothing but the kids look to go by on for being suspicious.

2. He then goes out of his way and leaves his car to confront this kid who's under suspicion for the way he looks.

3. The kid is lying dead and all that is on his persons is Skittles and an Arizona drink.

And just for shits and giggles.

4. The man is not in a jail cell waiting to be prosecuted.

Hell they put you in jail for possession, you sober up in a cell after being detained for public intoxication.

What decade are we in?
 
Be sure to send a picture of yourself and a detailed letter of your intentions (along with a letter from a sponsor) to all members of Neighborhood Watch if you intend to be in a gated community as well.

2-3 days in advance if possible.

I should make my black friends special bracelets or lanyards so they won't get car stalked by my neighbors.
 
Does anyone in here really believe that getting your ass kicked means you can shoot the person?

Best Case: Nightwatch captain asks the kid whats' going on. The kid then acts like an asshole and assaults mr nightwatch. They scuffle and fight. Bare fists. The nightwatch guy is losing. (He better be losing bad to fear his life). He then pulls a gun and shoots the kid.

The above is OK with people? No knife. No gun. he wasn't being jumped by multiple people. Just a fist fight. It's OK to blast someone?
 

KHarvey16

Member
Since your argument is "We don't know if he's guilty because we don't have all the facts", then the counter-argument would be "We know he's guilty because we do have all the facts". Since that obviously doesn't make sense, the people who have made up their minds have to resort to pretending that you're saying he's innocent. Otherwise they can't argue against your brazen refusal to wield your pitchfork just yet.

That seems to be the extent of it. I certainly don't feel as crazy as some are suggesting!

When you ignore police and the next time the police are called its over a dead kid that you're responsible for - you get cuffed. He may be perfectly within the laws of self defense as you say, but that should be decided after he's held.

You're just arguing devils advocate to pass the time while your brownies cook, I understand, but geez dude.

The chief said, as per the Huffington Post, that the operator suggested he not follow the kid. That is not a legal order or anything but a suggestion. I'm not arguing this point merely to argue, it simply is not a crime if he approached the kid. It just isn't. Whatever happened afterward is not somehow legally changed by this action. I don't know why you believe it is, but it is not a position based in law.

So Kharvey, you believe the guy that shot the kid did it in self defense?

No. I don't believe anything. I am pointing out it's possible he acted legally in self defense. This mere statement of fact, it seems, bothers people.

or are you just playing devils advocate for the hell of it?

Not that either. Are these my only two choices?

If the former, you really believe a situation would have occurred where the man would feel his life was so threatened that the only option was to shoot him? A kid that only had the intention of buying skittles, leaving the neighborhood watch guy as the only person who could have started a confrontation with the boy, knowing full well he was told not to?(that is the police dept was dumb and didn't tell him that) That it makes sense that he wasn't even arrested at the very least?

Another person who asks questions and assumes answers to justify a preconception.
 
Sure thing. I didn't make any assumptions. What I said was:
Actually, I was commenting more on this:
If the man was the one who initiated the exchange (and/or was the initial aggressor), it would certainly go towards vitiating a claim of "self-defense."
In other words, if he initiated contact, even if the boy as the initial aggressor, self-defense is invalidated. Which flowed with previous "It's murder because he approached him" statements before yours. It was more of a shared assumption in the thread that I was referring to, as opposed to you specifically, and I didn't make that as clear as I could have.
 

Kettch

Member
Didn't you guys know? The police don't arrest murderers until they've completely verified that they weren't acting in self-defense first. I mean that's just common sense.
 
The above is OK with people? No knife. No gun. he wasn't being jumped by multiple people. Just a fist fight. It's OK to blast someone?

The real tragedy here is the incompetence shown by the cops in not planting either of those two things (or at the very least, crack) on the boy's dead body. Florida 5-0 is slippin'.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
Man, if I were that kid, I would have been scared shitless of someone following me in their car...and for good reason, that could be a violent criminal...oh wait it was a neighborhood watch guy and the kid got killed anyway :(
 

Big-E

Member
Suspicious levels of melanin.

You don't know that. The kid could have fallen down and hurt himself and the man came up to help him as he was concerned for the kids health. Devil's advocate doesn't play when you are told to not confront then confront the person. There was zero reason to confront unless someone's life was in danger and I am 100 percent certain that was not the case given what we know. Horrible that one could be suspicious just walking to a store.
 
You forgot: "he was rapin our womens".

In what world is what you described self defence?

Well I chose not to speculate on what triggered the weapon being drawn. All that we can reasonably presume is that both interpreted the other to be aggressive upon confrontation. The kid didn't have a gun, the man did and decided to use it in response to something.
 

KHarvey16

Member
What I don't get is how people ignore four things that were outlined in this case:

1. The neighbourhood watch individual called the cops on a kid

Yes.

with nothing but the kids look to go by on for being suspicious.

Objection!

2. He then goes out of his way and leaves his car to confront this kid who's under suspicion for the way he looks.

Objection!

3. The kid is lying dead and all that is on his persons is Skittles and an Arizona drink.

Yes.

And just for shits and giggles.

4. The man is not in a jail cell waiting to be prosecuted.

Also true.

Does anyone in here really believe that getting your ass kicked means you can shoot the person?

Best Case: Nightwatch captain asks the kid whats' going on. The kid then acts like an asshole and assaults mr nightwatch. They scuffle and fight. Bare fists. The nightwatch guy is losing. (He better be losing bad to fear his life). He then pulls a gun and shoots the kid.

The above is OK with people? No knife. No gun. he wasn't being jumped by multiple people. Just a fist fight. It's OK to blast someone?

A person on top of you beating your face would legally justify the use of deadly force. Perhaps you disagree with that but it is the law. If that is what happened and it was unprovoked(legally) the man would be considered innocent of murder.
 
Does anyone in here really believe that getting your ass kicked means you can shoot the person?


When you are unarmed absolutely no.

When you are carrying a gun however things change. You have to maintain control of that weapon for it could easily be turned against you or others.

If packing try to avoid a fist fight but if you cannot do not relinquish control of your weapon even if it means by shooting the person you are fighting.
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
Didn't you guys know? The police don't arrest murderers until they've completely verified that they weren't acting in self-defense first. I mean that's just common sense.
Of course. I always forget about that part...
 
Does anyone in here really believe that getting your ass kicked means you can shoot the person?

Best Case: Nightwatch captain asks the kid whats' going on. The kid then acts like an asshole and assaults mr nightwatch. They scuffle and fight. Bare fists. The nightwatch guy is losing. (He better be losing bad to fear his life). He then pulls a gun and shoots the kid.

The above is OK with people? No knife. No gun. he wasn't being jumped by multiple people. Just a fist fight. It's OK to blast someone?


It's not ok but it is the law in Florida. I posted a link to the statute and to several cases. Florida's right to stand your ground law is very broad, making it very difficult to get a conviction in these types of cases.

If Zimmerman left his car to confront the kid then he will probably be charged. If the kid went up to Zimmermans car first then he wont be charged. In Florida you don't have to fight anybody you don't want to. You don't have to take a step back. You don't have to wait for them to even connect with one punch. If someone is acting like they are going to punch you then you can kill them in Florida.
 

Violet_0

Banned
Does anyone in here really believe that getting your ass kicked means you can shoot the person?

it seems that this falls under the Florida 'stand your ground' law, linked here by someone earlier
A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
 

KHarvey16

Member
KHarvey, are you going to address the fact that the chief of police confirms the lawyers story as factual?

He stated that the operator suggested the man not follow. I did address this, perhaps it was among the things I've written that you have ignored. Myself and others have also repeatedly explained the implications of this in regard to the law. I suspect you have ignored this as well.
 
Tell me how this isn't vigilante shit. I want to hear it. For the lulz.

Confronting someone, racially motivated or not, is not a hate crime and is not murder. At some point in the confrontation, it becomes physical, and it becomes no longer a question of race but of who hit first, and the correct explanation that leads to the gunshot.


IF they got into a fight and the kid started it physically; i'm not talking about confronting the kid, i'm talking about if after the confrontation the kid physically initiated combat, then self defense becomes more explainable as to why there has been no arrest.


The guy's racist motivations are an indirect factor into this altercation. The direct factor and whether you agree or not the only factor in deciding criminal charges is the initial physical contact and resulting fight.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
Does anyone in here really believe that getting your ass kicked means you can shoot the person?

I'm a big pro-gun person. If someone comes along wanting to kick my ass when I've done absolutely nothing wrong, and I had a gun...the fucker is going to die when he tries to connect a punch. Sorry but its true.

This gentleman on the other hand did something wrong in my book. He sought to harass a MINOR because he was black, which the kid took offense to and probably FELT PHYSICALLY THREATENED. He was being followed. Guy LEAVES HIS CAR TO CONFRONT THIS MINOR. WTF seriously. The guy needs to see jail time.
 
A person on top of you beating your face would legally justify the use of deadly force. Perhaps you disagree with that but it is the law. If that is what happened and it was unprovoked(legally) the man would be considered innocent of murder.

Great ... so where does it say the nightwatch captain was beaten badly. Because what you're describing would be a BEATING. I mean there would be eveidence of such a fight correct?
 

Big-E

Member
Does anyone in here really believe that getting your ass kicked means you can shoot the person?

Best Case: Nightwatch captain asks the kid whats' going on. The kid then acts like an asshole and assaults mr nightwatch. They scuffle and fight. Bare fists. The nightwatch guy is losing. (He better be losing bad to fear his life). He then pulls a gun and shoots the kid.

The above is OK with people? No knife. No gun. he wasn't being jumped by multiple people. Just a fist fight. It's OK to blast someone?

This is an extension of the whole castle doctrine and it is downright scary that a confrontation can end up with a shooting as it seems so many people carry.
 
In other words, if he initiated contact, even if the boy as the initial aggressor, self-defense is invalidated.

I said, "it would certainly go towards vitiating a claim of 'self-defense.'" That doesn't mean that the self-defense claim is automatically defeated, but only that the evidence is relevant in that it would (even if only incrementally) reduce the strength of the self-defense claim. That's how evidence works.

Which flowed with previous "It's murder because he approached him" statements before yours. It was more of a shared assumption in the thread that I was referring to, as opposed to you specifically, and I didn't make that as clear as I could have.

Fair enough. I assumed you were calling me "smug" after inferring an implication that couldn't be drawn from my post.
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
Confronting someone, racially motivated or not, is not a hate crime and is not murder.
Where have I ever said that it is?

This is vigilante action. That's what the majority are talking about and why most are mad that he isn't in jail for it. The rest can sort itself out - while he's in jail. We all know the guy thought the kid was suspicious because he was entirely too black while at night. That's got nothing to do with the actions taken though.
 
I'm a big pro-gun person. If someone comes along wanting to kick my ass when I've done absolutely nothing wrong, and I had a gun...the fucker is going to die when he tries to connect a punch. Sorry but its true.

I'm a big pro gun person too. This comment makes pro gun people look scary.
 

KHarvey16

Member
Great ... so where does it say the nightwatch captain was beaten badly. Because what you're describing would be a BEATING. I mean there would be eveidence of such a fight correct?

The police incident report noted the man was bleeding and had grass stains on the back of his shirt. The eyewitness described the fight in the same way. If the evidence supports this scenario it's possible his actions were justified.
 
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