• Register
  • TOS
  • Privacy
  • @NeoGAF
  • Like

Yearsoflurking
Member
(11-11-2017, 10:43 PM)

Originally Posted by Danjin44

Here is my question when we gonna see exclusive games that take advantage that power? Or all we going to see is multi-platform have better performance on it?

I played gears and forza last night both look incredible
MastAndo
Member
(11-11-2017, 10:45 PM)
Wow, impressive stuff. No need for an X1X in my life right now (I think), but pretty remarkable that a $500 box is closer to high-end PC performance than the PS4 Pro is to it.
Dabanton
Member
(11-11-2017, 10:46 PM)
Dabanton's Avatar

Originally Posted by tryDEATH

DF is just exposing for what a rushed debacle Sony made by trying to beat MS to the market with the PS4P. No UHD player nor enough of a performance boost.

I know its a stupid cliche, but the PS4P in its current form truly was a mistake by Sony, which is becoming so evident. They could have waited longer due to their amazing sales and release after MS and put the final nail in the Xbox coffin instead they are now forced to be a clear second in the console market for the foreseeable future. I truly feel sorry for the people that upgraded to the PS4P, because truly there wasn't almost any real value in that product.

Tbh it will still have the exclusives. But I was already buying all my multiplats on my Xbox One anyway. It does makes sense now why despite being in a commanding sales lead Sony went after all those third party marketing deals. Unfortunately for them in the age of Youtube,Twitch live streamers , commentators and influencers stepping around the 'official' channels. I do wonder the reach those ads have as they are on randomly.

With these Youtubers they have subscribers some of them in the millions. More people now know when a game is better on another platform, why do people think MS sent out so many free Xbox One X's to youtubers.
Alebrije
Member
(11-11-2017, 10:49 PM)
Alebrije's Avatar

Originally Posted by Danjin44

Here is my question when we gonna see exclusive games that take advantage that power? Or all we going to see is multi-platform have better performance on it?

Regular Xbone does not even have games, so maybe by fall 2018 unless Microsoft becomes berserk an buy studios for exclusives
AmyS
Member
(11-11-2017, 10:57 PM)
X1X / Scorpio is a massive improvement in image quality over PS4 Pro.

Hopefully in time, both versions will get performance patches so they can hit 60fps more consistently. I think that's a reasonable expectation, agree guys?

I have both PS4 Pro and X1X, if I buy this game, obviously it'll be on X1X.
Nikana
Member
(11-11-2017, 11:03 PM)
Nikana's Avatar

Originally Posted by Alebrije

Regular Xbone does not even have games, so maybe by fall 2018 unless Microsoft becomes berserk an buy studios for exclusives

What have I been playing then?
The_Mike
Junior Member
(11-11-2017, 11:06 PM)

Originally Posted by Nikana

What have I been playing then?

Playing with the UI, maybe Netflix?

”Xbox One has no games” is a bad joke that went too far.
Nikana
Member
(11-11-2017, 11:08 PM)
Nikana's Avatar

Originally Posted by The_Mike

Playing with the UI, maybe Netflix?

”Xbox One has no games” is a bad joke that went too far.

I just stare at the screen and yell WAKE UP JOHN over and over.
Lort
Junior Member
(11-11-2017, 11:09 PM)

Originally Posted by rokkerkory

We're likely not going to see 1440p games on the X unless it's pushing like 480p on the One LOL!

Perhaps when xbox next hits and the X becomes the low end model.

If by 480 u mean 720 then sure. Atm 720p games go to less than 4k even ms said that. 900-1080p on xbox =4k on xbox x .. 1080p on ps4 = checkerboard 4k or 1440 on ps4 pro. As a rough guide.
eso76
(11-11-2017, 11:11 PM)
eso76's Avatar

Originally Posted by tryDEATH

DF is just exposing for what a rushed debacle Sony made by trying to beat MS to the market with the PS4P. No UHD player nor enough of a performance boost.

Ps4pro released one year earlier for 100$ less, i wouldn't call it a rushed débâcle although clearly MS did put a lot more effort in designing their mid gen refresh. (tbh though it had a lot more ground to cover coming from the clueless mess the One was)
No UHD player is unexcusable though.
WaterAstro
Member
(11-11-2017, 11:14 PM)
WaterAstro's Avatar
It's obvious it will be improved over the PS4 Pro since it's $100 more and 1 year later.
potatohead
Member
(11-11-2017, 11:25 PM)
potatohead's Avatar

Originally Posted by MastAndo

Wow, impressive stuff. No need for an X1X in my life right now (I think), but pretty remarkable that a $500 box is closer to high-end PC performance than the PS4 Pro is to it.

It released a year later and costs $100 more, that should be expected.

What is remarkable? I don't know. Good for the players to have another option though.
solis74
Member
(11-11-2017, 11:41 PM)

Originally Posted by rokkerkory

Get the X version

I have :)
rokkerkory
Member
(11-11-2017, 11:42 PM)
rokkerkory's Avatar

Originally Posted by potatohead

It released a year later and costs $100 more, that should be expected.

What is remarkable? I don't know. Good for the players to have another option though.

Double the performance sometimes even more plus 4k player for just $100 more. Will take that any day.

Don't get me wrong, PS4 pro is still a wonderful machine.
NinjaJesus
Member
(11-11-2017, 11:46 PM)
NinjaJesus's Avatar

Originally Posted by Coulomb_Barrier

How much is MS paying DF for this barrage of XB1X content? very other day it seems they are posting something related. Seems fishy to me.

Oh god...
Lort
Junior Member
(11-11-2017, 11:51 PM)
DF posts tech review of game, more expensive newer console beats older cheaper crowd favourite, fanboy implodes.
it_wasn't_me
Junior Member
(11-12-2017, 12:07 AM)

Originally Posted by albz74

Thats the reason so many users left to other forum.

Unfortunately some console warriors moved as well to ensure same level of shit in DF threads

He also went too. Repeating same stuff.
potatohead
Member
(11-12-2017, 12:21 AM)
potatohead's Avatar

Originally Posted by rokkerkory

Double the performance sometimes even more plus 4k player for just $100 more. Will take that any day.

Don't get me wrong, PS4 pro is still a wonderful machine.

Double? Serious question I am not understanding that.

Nice machine not disagreeing though.
presagetogood
Member
(11-12-2017, 12:23 AM)
If you haven't seen it on a 4k TV, then you can't claim diminishing returns. The whole point of the statement of diminishing returns refers to visual differences that the eye can easily spot, so if you're not seeing it on a 4k HDR TV, then your eye will not spot the differences.

Cause 4k 60 fps is looking glorious and stands up to all the hype with my setup.
Nikana
Member
(11-12-2017, 12:24 AM)
Nikana's Avatar

Originally Posted by potatohead

Double? Serious question I am not understanding that.

Nice machine not disagreeing though.

Double the pixle count I believe is what he/she is saying.
Space_nut
Member
(11-12-2017, 12:46 AM)
Space_nut's Avatar

Originally Posted by Nikana

Double the pixle count I believe is what he/she is saying.

Yup to render double the res is double the performance in gpu power
Leyasu
Member
(11-12-2017, 01:03 AM)
Reading this thread... Lol
This place is fucked.
LeFlamaBlanca
Junior Member
(11-12-2017, 01:09 AM)
Just wait til the next gen consoles come out
Goalus
Member
(11-12-2017, 01:32 AM)

Originally Posted by Leyasu

Reading this thread... Lol
This place is fucked.

It's a salt mine - and I love it.
Great times ahead, hahaha!
tryDEATH
Junior Member
(11-12-2017, 02:01 AM)
tryDEATH's Avatar

Originally Posted by Bigby_Wolf

I think they got greedy.

I think they were betting that people wouldn't notice the difference and they could use their exclusives and price difference to sway people anyway but I don't think Sony had any idea of for who or why they were making this machine.

I really believe MS had the idea first and Sony just rushed PS4P out to beat MS to it. There's zero strategy or Target audience for the Pro. Nothing.

I don't think they were greedy as much as cocky when it came to the Pro add that to completely underestimating the 4K appeal and you end up in quite a bad place.

Complacency got to them and now their going to be forced to eat crow for then next 2 or 3 years. The one thing you got a hope now is that they don't react rashly and try to counter with the PS5 sooner then expected. There is little logical sense to that, because they are still way ahead, but being second fiddle for 3 plus years before being able to make up that mistake might just be too long for Sony.

That also puts them into a very dangerous situation, because MS is going to be countering what ever Sony releases. The PS4P has put them into a really bad strategic place moving forward, because as you said there just didn't seem to be any strategy at all.


Originally Posted by Dabanton

Tbh it will still have the exclusives. But I was already buying all my multiplats on my Xbox One anyway. It does makes sense now why despite being in a commanding sales lead Sony went after all those third party marketing deals. Unfortunately for them in the age of Youtube,Twitch live streamers , commentators and influencers stepping around the 'official' channels. I do wonder the reach those ads have as they are on randomly.

With these Youtubers they have subscribers some of them in the millions. More people now know when a game is better on another platform, why do people think MS sent out so many free Xbox One X's to youtubers.

100% True. MS has had a blinder since Phil took over every move they made thus far had a clear plan and they have just been checking things off. The YT play seems to probably be the best one thus far when it comes to persuading audiences. That was a boss move undercutting the marketing deals they way they did.


Originally Posted by eso76

Ps4pro released one year earlier for 100$ less, i wouldn't call it a rushed débâcle although clearly MS did put a lot more effort in designing their mid gen refresh. (tbh though it had a lot more ground to cover coming from the clueless mess the One was)
No UHD player is unexcusable though.

I would understand the "1 year later, $100 cheaper argument" if it actually carried proper weight, which it doesn't and people are just starting to use that as another deflection for Sony's horrible move with the PS4P

The X1X isn't equip with any new technology it is still utilizing all the same tech both original consoles launched. MS simply just overclocked the parts further, they didn't get a new CPU architecture to make it faster nor did they a new GPU to work with, both of them are made with the same parts for a large extend. Sony just decided to cut corners, by including less RAM and ignoring their own technology by not adding UHD. There was no reason for them to release the PS4P that early they basically shot themselves in the foot that just a shitty excuse.
it_wasn't_me
Junior Member
(11-12-2017, 02:06 AM)

Originally Posted by tryDEATH



I would understand the "1 year later, $100 cheaper argument" if it actually carried proper weight, which it doesn't and people are just starting to use that as another deflection for Sony's horrible move with the PS4P

The X1X isn't equip with any new technology it is still utilizing all the same tech both original consoles launched. MS simply just overclocked the parts further, they didn't get a new CPU architecture to make it faster nor did they a new GPU to work with, both of them are made with the same parts for a large extend. Sony just decided to cut corners, by including less RAM and ignoring their own technology by not adding UHD. There was no reason for them to release the PS4P that early they basically shot themselves in the foot that just a shitty excuse.


Sony aimed for 399$, MS aimed for 499$. Especially for a year later release. Some components probably were cheaper too. That's a big difference, isn't? Sony didn't cut anything if they aimed for 399$ and put what they could just no to break 399 barrier and they did it right.
Danjin44
Member
(11-12-2017, 02:24 AM)
Danjin44's Avatar

Originally Posted by Yearsoflurking

I played gears and forza last night both look incredible

Is that all? is there any game to look forward in 2018 for X? Im sorry but I just cant get excited about X at all. It might be "strongest console" but it just doesn't have games that will make spend $500.
TheSpecialOne
Member
(11-12-2017, 02:32 AM)
TheSpecialOne's Avatar
I'll preface this post by mentioning that I own an xbox one x and I watched this video on my 4k tv. I noticed differences but I'd categorize them as minor at best. The biggest difference I've noticed is shadow of war and that was due to the textures. The extra resolutions is a waste for me. It would be better served implementing new interesting effects and more physics. You know, stuff that you'll actually notice while playing the game.
Nizz
Member
(11-12-2017, 02:35 AM)
Nizz's Avatar

Originally Posted by rokkerkory

Double the IQ and double the performance sometimes even more isnt that big? Haha

You arent even trying to be objective here.

I don't know, I watched the video and the framerate looked neck and neck on both consoles. Don't get the "double the performance" bit.
Ubername
Member
(11-12-2017, 02:37 AM)
Ubername's Avatar

Originally Posted by valkyre

Are we at a point where we have to zoom in at 600% to notice the gulf between the 2 machines?

That is not to say that you cant tell the X is going to be sharper and cleaner than the Pro but those DF comparisons where they zoom in at a photo 600% to show a bottle saying "medicine" is something that I bet nobody will be able to read while playing the game.

Yes the game is better on X but that whole gulf thing sounds hyperbolic, unless people play on 60+ inch TVs standing 1 foot away.

I know, but what else are they going to cover? DF's stamp is that they have a frametime graph for the length of the video for every single video they have. If there's a discrepancy in graphics at 600% by gum they're gonna be the ones to find it. A real public service they do.
The_Mike
Junior Member
(11-12-2017, 02:37 AM)

Originally Posted by Danjin44

Is that all? is there any game to look forward in 2018 for X? Im sorry but I just cant get excited about X at all. It might be "strongest console" but it just doesn't have games that will make spend $500.

When writing posts like this this sure means that the X isn’t for you. Could also be a stealthy fanboy post though “Xbox has no games” joke.
Goalus
Member
(11-12-2017, 02:38 AM)

Originally Posted by Danjin44

Is that all? is there any game to look forward in 2018 for X? Im sorry but I just cant get excited about X at all. It might be "strongest console" but it just doesn't have games that will make spend $500.

Sure, if you are not excited about Ori and the Will of the Wisps, Sea of Thieves or Forza Horizon 4 along with the best version of Red Dead Redemption 2, it probably makes sense to settle for the second-best version.
JareBear
Member
(11-12-2017, 02:43 AM)
JareBear's Avatar

Originally Posted by meirl

Remember when there were 900p xb1 vs 1080p ps4 days and the fucking MELTDOWN? Now we have a much much bigger difference and suddenly it doesnt Matter.

There is a Law of Dimishing Return

The difference between 720p and 1080p is insanely more noticeable than the differences between 1440p and 2160
JareBear
Member
(11-12-2017, 02:45 AM)
JareBear's Avatar

Originally Posted by rokkerkory

Double the performance sometimes even more plus 4k player for just $100 more. Will take that any day.

Don't get me wrong, PS4 pro is still a wonderful machine.

Performance most commonly refers to frame rate

X has has double the resolution for this game. Frame rate is identical or maybe tad smoother on Pro due to lower resolution
Danjin44
Member
(11-12-2017, 02:48 AM)
Danjin44's Avatar

Originally Posted by Goalus

Sure, if you are not excited about Ori and the Will of the Wisps, Sea of Thieves or Forza Horizon 4 along with the best version of Red Dead Redemption 2, it probably makes sense to settle for the second-best version.

Or I still able to enjoy Red Dead Redemption 2 while enjoying games like Ni no Kuni 2, Dragon Quest XI, Ghost of Tsushima, Last of Us part II, God of War and Shadow of the Colossus remake and Hokuto Ga Gotoku.
sunofsam
Member
(11-12-2017, 03:05 AM)
sunofsam's Avatar

Originally Posted by Goalus

Sure, if you are not excited about Ori and the Will of the Wisps, Sea of Thieves or Forza Horizon 4 along with the best version of Red Dead Redemption 2, it probably makes sense to settle for the second-best version.

Yup, if not interested in the best version of multiplats (which you "likely" were 3 years ago like the rest of the salty dogs in here) then yeah, the X is not for you!
tryDEATH
Junior Member
(11-12-2017, 03:16 AM)
tryDEATH's Avatar

Originally Posted by it_wasn't_me

Sony aimed for 399$, MS aimed for 499$. Especially for a year later release. Some components probably were cheaper too. That's a big difference, isn't? Sony didn't cut anything if they aimed for 399$ and put what they could just no to break 399 barrier and they did it right.

The cost difference in parts is minimal between them and a years time doesn't effect the price nearly enough. The consoles as they are are using basically the same parts. The difference is the amount of work MS put into designing and fine tuning the X1X, which is what they are actually charging for.

Just because one company didn't take its time and due diligence doesn't have to negate the efforts of another company, a latter release doesn't automatically equal a superior product thus it is a horrible argument to make. No one put the gun to Sony's head and said to release the console when it did and as other posters have alluded there just didn't seem to be any strategy behind their decision making, which in this case was a bad one.

A lot of the extra $100 is probably the UHD, remove that from the system, what becomes Sony's excuse then? They had the same toys to play with one was just simply smarter.
Alebrije
Member
(11-12-2017, 03:25 AM)
Alebrije's Avatar

Originally Posted by tryDEATH

The cost difference in parts is minimal between them and a years time doesn't effect the price nearly enough. The consoles as they are are using basically the same parts. The difference is the amount of work MS put into designing and fine tuning the X1X, which is what they are actually charging for.

Just because one company didn't take its time and due diligence doesn't have to negate the efforts of another company, a latter release doesn't automatically equal a superior product thus it is a horrible argument to make. No one put the gun to Sony's head and said to release the console when it did and as other posters have alluded there just didn't seem to be any strategy behind their decision making, which in this case was a bad one.

A lot of the extra $100 is probably the UHD, remove that from the system, what becomes Sony's excuse then? They had the same toys to play with one was just simply smarter.

Think MS did a better job with XboneX than Sony with PRO, beyond the price and spects XboneX is a great minimalist machine, less noisy than PRO and better designed. This machine could accelerate PS5 release.
Sweep14
Member
(11-12-2017, 03:31 AM)
Sweep14's Avatar

Originally Posted by tryDEATH

The cost difference in parts is minimal between them and a years time doesn't effect the price nearly enough. The consoles as they are are using basically the same parts. The difference is the amount of work MS put into designing and fine tuning the X1X, which is what they are actually charging for.

Just because one company didn't take its time and due diligence doesn't have to negate the efforts of another company, a latter release doesn't automatically equal a superior product thus it is a horrible argument to make. No one put the gun to Sony's head and said to release the console when it did and as other posters have alluded there just didn't seem to be any strategy behind their decision making, which in this case was a bad one.

A lot of the extra $100 is probably the UHD, remove that from the system, what becomes Sony's excuse then? They had the same toys to play with one was just simply smarter.

The cost difference will allow the Ps4 pro to outsell the Xbox one X by a wide margin. MS are too late and too expensive with their mid-gen refresh. They already lost.
forgedbygeeks
Junior Member
(11-12-2017, 03:37 AM)
forgedbygeeks's Avatar

Originally Posted by Snake29

Performance was the same, and even sometimes more constant on Pro. Yes with a lower res (1440p), but still much higher then 1080p. Graphics difference at first place is not huge. We still have to zoom in to see some little differences. Some of you guy really think the Pro is Xbox On quality vs One X, because THAT'S huge.

Imo, they need to convince Xbox One players and not PS4 Pro player to buy an One X.

I remember when just a few years ago 900p vs 1080p was a huge deal and now suddenly a much larger resolution difference doesn't matter.

It is also worth noting that the 1X version also super samples to 1080p for those without a 4k TV while the Pro does not. Which means it is an even bigger quality difference for 1080p users.
sunofsam
Member
(11-12-2017, 03:43 AM)
sunofsam's Avatar

Originally Posted by forgedbygeeks

I remember when just a few years ago 900p vs 1080p was a huge deal and now suddenly a much larger resolution difference doesn't matter.

It is also worth noting that the 1X version also super samples to 1080p for those without a 4k TV while the Pro does not. Which means it is an even bigger quality difference for 1080p users.

FAKE NEWS.
Lort
Junior Member
(11-12-2017, 03:49 AM)

Originally Posted by Danjin44

Or I still able to enjoy Red Dead Redemption 2 while enjoying games like Ni no Kuni 2, Dragon Quest XI, Ghost of Tsushima, Last of Us part II, God of War and Shadow of the Colossus remake and Hokuto Ga Gotoku.

I have 0 interest in playing any of these games.. im looking foward to Anthem, Forza Horizon, PUBG, RDR 2. Im hoping for upres versions of more 360 games to.. RDR in 4k anyone?

Edit forgot Crackdown and State of Decay 2 hope these turn out well.
Leviticus
Junior Member
(11-12-2017, 03:54 AM)
Leviticus's Avatar
I don't understand why people here continue to call the Pro a failed console. It is selling quite well. If the X is the success MS wants it to be is yet to be determined. Remember that consumers used to chafe at too expensive consoles.

Part of me actually wants the X to not do too well so that Sony won't price the PS5 at $500 or higher.
Bigmac1910
Member
(11-12-2017, 04:17 AM)
Bigmac1910's Avatar

Originally Posted by valkyre

Are we at a point where we have to zoom in at 600% to notice the gulf between the 2 machines?

That is not to say that you cant tell the X is going to be sharper and cleaner than the Pro but those DF comparisons where they zoom in at a photo 600% to show a bottle saying "medicine" is something that I bet nobody will be able to read while playing the game.

Yes the game is better on X but that whole gulf thing sounds hyperbolic, unless people play on 60+ inch TVs standing 1 foot away.

Totally agree, I didn't see that big of a difference compared to what the video said it was, and usually I see it easily but not this time.

EDIT: oops, didn't refresh the page for a while and now it's on page 3 lol.
tryDEATH
Junior Member
(11-12-2017, 04:29 AM)
tryDEATH's Avatar

Originally Posted by Alebrije

Think MS did a better job with XboneX than Sony with PRO, beyond the price and spects XboneX is a great minimalist machine, less noisy than PRO and better designed. This machine could accelerate PS5 release.

That is what Sony needs to be careful of, because they already reacted hastily and we ended up with the PS4P.

Originally Posted by Sweep14

The cost difference will allow the Ps4 pro to outsell the Xbox one X by a wide margin. MS are too late and too expensive with their mid-gen refresh. They already lost.

That is just your speculation, which you can already mark of as highly improbable.

The PS4P had a year head star with out competition, but the day the X1X released it took a back seat where it will remain until the PS5 comes out and that could be another 2 or 3 years at least. During that time 4K TV's are going to take over and the X1X is at that time going to become the default system in the console space add the fact that it also has a UHD player making it a multi-functional and considerably more worth to consumers.

I can guarantee you the PS4P is not going to outsell the X1X. The X1X is probably going to make up the difference between the consoles in North America by the time PS5 roles out. The value proposition simply isn't there for PS4P in a year or two no matter the price point, because it will not be powerful enough and consumers will be very cautious to not invest into "premium" system if there is going to be a new and better version in a years time. Much like many Xbox users skipped the S in favor for the X by simply waiting a year for it.
PsihoPerihelion
Member
(11-12-2017, 04:32 AM)
PsihoPerihelion's Avatar

Originally Posted by tryDEATH

That is what Sony needs to be careful of, because they already reacted hastily and we ended up with the PS4P.



That is just your speculation, which you can already mark of as highly improbable.

The PS4P had a year head star with out competition, but the day the X1X released it took a back seat where it will remain until the PS5 comes out and that could be another 2 or 3 years at least. During that time 4K TV's are going to take over and the X1X is at that time going to become the default system in the console space add the fact that it also has a UHD player making it a multi-functional and considerably more worth to consumers.

I can guarantee you the PS4P is not going to outsell the X1X. The X1X is probably going to make up the difference between the consoles in North America by the time PS5 roles out. The value proposition simply isn't there for PS4P in a year or two no matter the price point, because it will not be powerful enough and consumers will be very cautious to not invest into "premium" system if there is going to be a new and better version in a years time. Much like many Xbox users skipped the S in favor for the X by simply waiting a year for it.

You have some wild wild imagination, young man. $199 is the magic number that makes you a winner, not a niche $499 product.
mad597
Member
(11-12-2017, 04:39 AM)

Originally Posted by JareBear

There is a Law of Dimishing Return

The difference between 720p and 1080p is insanely more noticeable than the differences between 1440p and 2160

How convienient this hits at the exact same time the sony console is less powerful. Until you see it at home on your own 4k hdr tv these youtube videos dont do the X1X justice. But if it makes you sleep better just keep telling yourself "diminishing returns"
mad597
Member
(11-12-2017, 04:41 AM)

Originally Posted by Sweep14

The cost difference will allow the Ps4 pro to outsell the Xbox one X by a wide margin. MS are too late and too expensive with their mid-gen refresh. They already lost.

Are you a stock holder or a gamer? You want the best version of multi plats on a console? Only one place to get it. I hope your "sales" keep you warm at night.
mad597
Member
(11-12-2017, 04:45 AM)

Originally Posted by Danjin44

Is that all? is there any game to look forward in 2018 for X? Im sorry but I just cant get excited about X at all. It might be "strongest console" but it just doesn't have games that will make spend $500.

I had 29 x1x enhanced games on my hard drive when I plugged it in after hooking it up ready to play and 120 non enhanced games that got instant improvement. I think we will be ok in the games department.
HeWhoWalks
Member
(11-12-2017, 04:45 AM)
HeWhoWalks's Avatar

Originally Posted by rokkerkory

Get the X version

Or, in my case, the best version which is on PC.

Sorry, door was left wide open XD

Thread Tools