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CampbellzSoup
Member
(12-02-2017, 06:21 PM)
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CNN.com/cnn/2017/12/02/politics/how-senate-tax-bill-passed/index.html

Republicans are finally on the verge of enacting a signature legislative achievement.

It's something that seemed up in the air less than 24 hours before the vote, unlikely just a few months ago and completely unfathomable despite bold claims to the contrary midway through President Donald Trump's first year in office.

Yet the Republican-controlled US Senate, by a vote of 51-49, early Saturday morning passed a historic overhaul of the US tax code, clearing what has long been considered the largest and most byzantine hurdle in an effort that hasn't been completed in more than 31 years.

therealist
Member
(12-02-2017, 06:25 PM)
Trump's first victory is a hastily put together bill that was pushed through late on a Friday night before any Senator or more importantly any American can digest to see what it contains.

Call it, victory for the sake of victory. It's like if a sports team that has lost every game of the season decided to play incredibly dirty in order to win something.
JordanN
Junior Member
(12-02-2017, 06:35 PM)
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I thought it was winning the election?

Hey, can't a libertarian make a joke?
Phoenix RISING
Member
(12-02-2017, 06:35 PM)
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Is it a victory if it has to pass the House too?
120v
Member
(12-02-2017, 06:37 PM)

Originally Posted by Phoenix RISING

Is it a victory if it has to pass the House too?

the house and senate bills aren't that different. biggest hurdle is passed, the thing will pass

a win in the trump column unfortunately
CampbellzSoup
Member
(12-02-2017, 06:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Phoenix RISING

Is it a victory if it has to pass the House too?

The house is mostly controlled by the Republicans as well itís their bill it will pass you will be on his desk by Christmas.

Listen I think That the middle class need a tax break and every other country in the world their corporations donít pay as much as ours letís see how it works
rokkerkory
Member
(12-02-2017, 06:44 PM)
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Middle class californian here and my taxes are gonna go up
Syriel
Member
(12-02-2017, 06:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by CampbellzSoup

The house is mostly controlled by the Republicans as well itís their bill it will pass you will be on his desk by Christmas.

Listen I think That the middle class need a tax break and every other country in the world their corporations donít pay as much as ours letís see how it works

Well then, you're going to be waiting a long time. This bill is a massive tax break for the upper class.

The middle and lower classes are going to end up paying for the bulk of it.
shattyboombatty
Member
(12-02-2017, 06:45 PM)
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Opponents say that it will diretly hurt the middle to lower class americans, while only benefiting those who are already rich.

Supporters say businesses reaping the benefits will invest those profits back into business thus indirectly helping all Americans.


History tends to show the former is more likely, and that the latter is an unrealistic platitude which doesn't actually work as advertised. I have a hard time believing something so rushed and unvetted will actually help anyone other than the ones doing the rushing... but I guess all we can do now is wait and see if the promised benefits actually come to pass.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
(12-02-2017, 06:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by CampbellzSoup

The house is mostly controlled by the Republicans as well itís their bill it will pass you will be on his desk by Christmas.

Listen I think That the middle class need a tax break and every other country in the world their corporations donít pay as much as ours letís see how it works

Middle class isnít getting a tax break lol
HStallion
Now what's the next step in your master plan?
(12-02-2017, 06:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by CampbellzSoup

The house is mostly controlled by the Republicans as well itís their bill it will pass you will be on his desk by Christmas.

Listen I think That the middle class need a tax break and every other country in the world their corporations donít pay as much as ours letís see how it works

The fact you trust the GOP to do well by the lower and middle classes at this point is laughable.
CampbellzSoup
Member
(12-02-2017, 06:52 PM)
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Wha constitutes upper class then?
ssolitare
Member
(12-02-2017, 06:56 PM)

Originally Posted by CampbellzSoup

The house is mostly controlled by the Republicans as well it’s their bill it will pass you will be on his desk by Christmas.

Listen I think That the middle class need a tax break and every other country in the world their corporations don’t pay as much as ours let’s see how it works

The middle class does not get a permanent tax break. In the end of it all, their taxes go up slightly, and there's a big decrease for the rich due to the sheer amount of money they have. The true problem for the middle class is the loss of important deductions.

Amazon pays less than 1% of global revenue to taxes, so we're not that worried about the corporate tax rate by comparison. The average corp pays something like 13%.
OniBarubary
Banned
(12-02-2017, 07:15 PM)
I mean, it technically is a win for the Republicans in the same way that the Armenian Genocide was a win for the Ottoman Empire/Turkey.
Goldfishking
Member
(12-02-2017, 07:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by OniBarubary

I mean, it technically is a win for the Republicans in the same way that the Armenian Genocide was a win for the Ottoman Empire/Turkey.

I get the joke your trying to make.

But please don't compare tax reform bills to actual genocide.
SoundofSilence
Member
(12-02-2017, 07:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by shattyboombatty

History tends to show the former is more likely, and that the latter is an unrealistic platitude which doesn't actually work as advertised. I have a hard time believing something so rushed and unvetted will actually help anyone other than the ones doing the rushing... but I guess all we can do now is wait and see if the promised benefits actually come to pass.

History tends to show that it repeats itself. Meaning, do not expect a panacea of GDP growth and huge new labor markets. Do expect the condition of the lower and middle classes to worsen over time.

The biggest benefactor of this tax bill will be Trump's own family, regardless of whether he is impeached.
mercenar1e
Member
(12-02-2017, 07:52 PM)

Originally Posted by CampbellzSoup

The house is mostly controlled by the Republicans as well itís their bill it will pass you will be on his desk by Christmas.

Listen I think That the middle class need a tax break and every other country in the world their corporations donít pay as much as ours letís see how it works

that's not true. corporations use every trick currently available in the tax system to bring down the rate to 15%

the new plan will only guarantee that they pay less than 15% and place the burden on middle class families.
Fox Mulder
Member
(12-02-2017, 07:54 PM)
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They rammed this through for their donors and will probably even benefit politically when it fucks Americans during a likely Democrat administration in a few years.
Reverse Giraffe
Banned
(12-02-2017, 07:59 PM)
Woohoo
The richest and greediest have to pay less than a fair share.
darkinstinct
Member
(12-02-2017, 08:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by CampbellzSoup

The house is mostly controlled by the Republicans as well itís their bill it will pass you will be on his desk by Christmas.

Listen I think That the middle class need a tax break and every other country in the world their corporations donít pay as much as ours letís see how it works

Except this reform will lead to higher taxes for lower and middle class while giving more to the rich.
BizarroPete
Junior Member
(12-02-2017, 08:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by CampbellzSoup

The house is mostly controlled by the Republicans as well itís their bill it will pass you will be on his desk by Christmas.

Listen I think That the middle class need a tax break and every other country in the world their corporations donít pay as much as ours letís see how it works

Did you ever stop to think that these other countries may just lower their tax rates so they still tax at a lower rate? Real win for corporations.
rokkerkory
Member
(12-02-2017, 09:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by BizarroPete

Did you ever stop to think that these other countries may just lower their tax rates so they still tax at a lower rate? Real win for corporations.

Man corporations must have treated you real well.
llien
Member
(12-02-2017, 09:48 PM)
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For those like me, wondering what is going on:

How the Republican Tax Bill Benefits the Rich According to Government Analysis (washington post)

Corporate tax rate will drop sharply, from 35% to 20% and the change is permanent.
Corporations also won't need to tax their income made abroad.


Tax drops for ordinary people are temporary. While they do affect all layers of society positively, however rich will benefit more:



And the catch is, unlike with corporate tax, what people will benefit from will change in 2027, rich win:

Lev
Member
(12-02-2017, 09:52 PM)
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People are going to remember Trump signed on this horrible shit.

Holy crap though, the more I read about this topic, the more I realize how badly we are going to get decimated (us non-1%ers). With this bill, they reached out in so many different ways to fuck us over. Some of them I didn't even foresee, like how graduate students would have to pay taxes if they wanted to do TA work. It's just one of those interesting ways this tax bill takes a giant shit on social mobility.
Mahadev
Member
(12-02-2017, 10:02 PM)
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First victory for Trump, first huge defeat for the middle class. Funny how that piece of shit pretended to fight the establishment and he's the epitome of neoliberalism. The only reason the establishment doesn't like him is because they have realized that the DNC's neoliberalism is smarter, it's better to slowly destroy the middle class like Obama has been doing for 8 years than swiftly attack them on all fronts like the Republicans are doing. That way they risk dangerous backlash.

Fuck both parties but fuck Republicans even more, these psychopaths are out of their minds.
sans_pants
avec_pťnis
(12-02-2017, 10:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by Mahadev

First victory for Trump, first huge defeat for the middle class. Funny how that piece of shit pretended to fight the establishment and he's the epitome of neoliberalism. The only reason the establishment doesn't like him is because they have realized that the DNC's neoliberalism is smarter, it's better to slowly destroy the middle class like Obama has been doing for 8 years than swiftly attack them on all fronts like the Republicans are doing. That way they risk dangerous backlash.

Fuck both parties but fuck Republicans even more, these psychopaths are out of their minds.

can you briefly describe the ways that obama personally fucked the middle class?
7he Talon
Member
(12-02-2017, 10:21 PM)
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He'll get reelected now.
themagicalkitsune
Member
(12-02-2017, 10:29 PM)
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Isn't this the one which completely fucks up graduate students in the US?
Mahadev
Member
(12-02-2017, 10:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by sans_pants

can you briefly describe the ways that obama personally fucked the middle class?

Privatizing education, passing a Heritage Foundation plan as his solution for health care, protecting criminal bankers ANY means necessary, trying to pass TPP and TTIP (even fucking Trump was on the left of that issue for completely different reasons though), continuation of wars and destabilization of the Middle East that finally birthed ISIS after he armed and funded civil wars that destroyed Libya and Syria, continued feeding the military industrial complex, continued feeding the prison complex until the elections when he and Democrats always start pandering to progressives and so on.

Obama was always a charismatic snake that appealed to rightwing liberals that pretend to be left, whatever the fuck "left" means in the US anymore. I have to admit I fell for his bullshit in 2008 but it quickly became apparent what he is when his DOJ repeatedly protected bankers. Behind that front of decency there's a 90's neoliberal republican.
ssolitare
Member
(12-02-2017, 10:48 PM)

Originally Posted by themagicalkitsune

Isn't this the one which completely fucks up graduate students in the US?

It dis-encourages college and especially graduate degrees, on the back of encouraging private jets and corporations to return greater value to shareholders.
Dude Abides
Member
(12-02-2017, 11:26 PM)
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Hello recession.
WaterAstro
Member
(12-02-2017, 11:30 PM)
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I think the whole sexual harassment thing really diverted attention to this issue.

This is a way bigger problem, and people are going to lose their livelihoods for it.
i-Lo
Member
(12-02-2017, 11:40 PM)
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Anyone look into these aspects of the bill?

Donald Trump Calls Kim Jong Un A "Sick Puppy" | The Daily Show

Whatever the fuck happened to the idea of separation of church and state?
Joe T.
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(12-02-2017, 11:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by HStallion

The fact you trust the GOP to do well by the lower and middle classes at this point is laughable.

The fact that anyone trusts the Republicans or Democrats will always blow my mind. Both parties have demonstrated time and time again that they don't deserve it. Unless significant changes are made to the way elected officials operate and to campaign financing you're going to have a really hard time electing anyone that truly cares about the plights of the common US citizen. There's a point to be made about the voters being responsible for who they put in office, but good luck getting the overwhelming majority to adequately inform themselves and then getting those elected officials to stay grounded enough to do what the people demand when they're on term 10+ because at that point they believe they can get away with murder.
Mahadev
Member
(12-03-2017, 12:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by Dude Abides

Hello recession.

The lower and middle classes have been living in recession since the 2008 economic meltdown, this plan will just make it even worse for them.
i-Lo
Member
(12-03-2017, 02:30 AM)
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So, apparently, the bill also contains provision for drilling for oil in the Arctic Wildlife Refuge.

The GOP Tax Bill Could Forever Alter Alaska’s Indigenous Tribes- The Atlantic

I guess when you cut tax for the rich and the corporations, the deficits need to be taken care of somehow:

The Republican tax bill assumes that drilling in ANWR will generate $1 billion in federal revenue over the next 10 years. During its last survey of the region, the U.S. Geological Survey said that 12 billion barrels of recoverable crude oil may lie beneath the reserve.

... not a lot.

And:

Caribou aren’t the only animals that live in the ANWR. Polar bears, brown bears, and black bears all trundle through its streams and meadows. Lynx, moose, Arctic fox, walrus, and ringed seal lounge on the Arctic coast. And migratory birds—including merlins, sandpipers, and peregrine falcons—summer in the reserve before returning to the continental United States for the winter.

Here we are trying to slowly move more towards renewables and us Canadians have been trying to do our part and these americans are throwing a monkey wrench.

So far it looks like a god damn tax, TAX Bill is trying to:

1. End the separation of church and state
2. Grant personhood to fetuses
3. Destroy an arctic wildlife refuge
HStallion
Now what's the next step in your master plan?
(12-03-2017, 04:07 AM)
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Originally Posted by Joe T.

The fact that anyone trusts the Republicans or Democrats will always blow my mind. Both parties have demonstrated time and time again that they don't deserve it. Unless significant changes are made to the way elected officials operate and to campaign financing you're going to have a really hard time electing anyone that truly cares about the plights of the common US citizen. There's a point to be made about the voters being responsible for who they put in office, but good luck getting the overwhelming majority to adequately inform themselves and then getting those elected officials to stay grounded enough to do what the people demand when they're on term 10+ because at that point they believe they can get away with murder.

I have my issues with the democrats, some serious ones but the GOP are at this point trying to be as villainous as possible with what they're doing and they're not even trying to hide it. They're spitting in the face of the middle and lower class and calling it a win for them. Say what you will about the Democrats but the GOP are going to do far more damage to this country and its population than ISIS could ever hope to.
YourMaster
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(12-03-2017, 08:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by HStallion

I have my issues with the democrats, some serious ones but the GOP are at this point trying to be as villainous as possible with what they're doing and they're not even trying to hide it. They're spitting in the face of the middle and lower class and calling it a win for them. Say what you will about the Democrats but the GOP are going to do far more damage to this country and its population than ISIS could ever hope to.

You don't have to compare them. If one is bad, and the other is way, way worse that just means you have no good choices.
There are no redeeming qualities to a two party system. One of the many bad qualities is that it gives politicians way too much power over the electorate, because if not them, there's only those other guys you really would not want to vote for anyway. And here it shows specifically how the interests of donors are much more important to the politicians than the interests of the electorate.
Username1198
Member
(12-03-2017, 08:35 PM)
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ďFuck the poorsĒ

-republicans

ďLMAO MAGAĒ

-trumpsters
ssolitare
Member
(12-03-2017, 08:48 PM)
Democrats do a poor job balancing public and lobbyist interests. The ratio is maybe 60-40 in favor of lobbyists, and in Bernie theory it's 50-50.

Republicans are 95% lobbyists.

Dems are the optimal choice by comparison, even though they leave a lot to be desired. Pulled that number from my ass of course, but that's what it feels like.
xStoyax
Junior Member
(12-03-2017, 11:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by therealist

Trump's first victory is a hastily put together bill that was pushed through late on a Friday night before any Senator or more importantly any American can digest to see what it contains.

Call it, victory for the sake of victory. It's like if a sports team that has lost every game of the season decided to play incredibly dirty in order to win something.

i-Lo
Member
(12-03-2017, 11:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by xStoyax

Here's just part of whole quote for context, something that trolls or ignoramuses always miss out on:

...We have to do this in partnership, and I wanted to bring up to date on where we see it from here. The final health care legislation that will soon be passed by Congress will deliver successful reform at the local level. It will offer paid for investments that will improve health care services and coverage for millions more Americans. It will make significant investments in innovation, prevention, wellness and offer robust support for public health infrastructure. It will dramatically expand investments into community health centers. That means a dramatic expansion in the number of patients community health centers can see and ultimately healthier communities. Our bill will significantly reduce uncompensated care for hospitals.

ďYouíve heard about the controversies within the bill, the process about the bill, one or the other. But I donít know if you have heard that it is legislation for the future, not just about health care for America, but about a healthier America, where preventive care is not something that you have to pay a deductible for or out of pocket. Prevention, prevention, prevention ó itís about diet, not diabetes. Itís going to be very, very exciting.

ďBut we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy. Furthermore, we believe that health care reform, again I said at the beginning of my remarks, that we sent the three pillars that the Presidentís economic stabilization and job creation initiatives were education and innovation ó innovation begins in the classroom ó clean energy and climate, addressing the climate issues in an innovative way to keep us number one and competitive in the world with the new technology, and the third, first among equals I may say, is health care, health insurance reform. Health insurance reform is about jobs. This legislation alone will create 4 million jobs, about 400,000 jobs very soon....



And all it took was one simple reverse image search on google.
Euphor!a
Banned
(12-03-2017, 11:47 PM)

Originally Posted by i-Lo

Here's just part of whole quote for context, something that trolls or ignoramuses always miss out on:



And all it took was one simple reverse image search on google.

Troll is giving them too much credit, they are just dumb as shit.
xStoyax
Junior Member
(12-03-2017, 11:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by i-Lo

Here's just part of whole quote for context, something that trolls or ignoramuses always miss out on:



And all it took was one simple reverse image search on google.

Thanks for verifying that she actually said it...derp
David___
Member
(12-03-2017, 11:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by xStoyax

Thanks for verifying that she actually said it...derp

con∑text
ˈkšntekst
noun
the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
Zimbardo
Member
(12-03-2017, 11:49 PM)
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Pelosi is a mess.
YourMaster
Member
(12-04-2017, 01:49 AM)
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Originally Posted by xStoyax

Thanks for verifying that she actually said it...derp

come on,... I think there's more than enough to criticize on both the bill and the way it passed, but with that statement there's nothing wrong and that sentence is totally out of context.

She's not claiming that 'bills in general need to be passed before the public can learn about it', she is claiming that the bits she's happy about will not get any spotlight so long as people are highlighting all the 'controversial bits', which they will do as long as they can fight it.
rokkerkory
Member
(12-04-2017, 01:51 AM)
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Originally Posted by i-Lo

Here's just part of whole quote for context, something that trolls or ignoramuses always miss out on:



And all it took was one simple reverse image search on google.

Wow both sides are pretty crappy.
HStallion
Now what's the next step in your master plan?
(12-04-2017, 01:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by xStoyax

Thanks for verifying that she actually said it...derp

You should probably read what they posted before going derp.

Originally Posted by YourMaster

You don't have to compare them. If one is bad, and the other is way, way worse that just means you have no good choices.
There are no redeeming qualities to a two party system. One of the many bad qualities is that it gives politicians way too much power over the electorate, because if not them, there's only those other guys you really would not want to vote for anyway. And here it shows specifically how the interests of donors are much more important to the politicians than the interests of the electorate.

This is the thing. I have my issues with the Democrats but they're ones that can be worked on and the Democrats don't seem so far up their asses they're going to start palling around with White Nationalists. The Democrats fucking up is can cause problems but the GOP seem hell bent on fucking up on purpose and when they do so, they're gonna kill a lot of people.
Joe T.
Member
(12-04-2017, 01:55 AM)
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Originally Posted by i-Lo

Here's just part of whole quote for context, something that trolls or ignoramuses always miss out on:

And all it took was one simple reverse image search on google.

Imagine how much different the online world would be today if everyone took the time to read several paragraphs for context rather than simply reacting to headlines, sound bytes, tweets or quotes taken completely out of context.

Regardless of context (not that it helps her much in this particular case - she went on to correct the record with WaPo over a year later, saying she meant the bill would need to pass in order for the public to see its benefits, not its contents), she's 77, been in office 30 years, and is sitting on as much as $200M together with her husband. You would need to be delusional to believe she understands the issues affecting lower and middle class Americans, those in rural and urban areas alike. She is a prime example of what's wrong with government.

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