• Register
  • TOS
  • Privacy
  • @NeoGAF
  • Like

Resident_UA
Member
(12-06-2017, 06:34 PM)
Resident_UA's Avatar

Originally Posted by Dunki

AGain it is debatable but pretending Muslims are innocent while accusing christianity is just ridiculous.

And do not make me laugh. China is shitty yes but only Christans and Muslims did fought brutal wars and crusades in the name of Religion. Also if you believe Slaver in Muslim countries did not exist I just think you need to look this up. It still exsits today. Just now there was a huge case in Lybia and African slaves being sold of. And now guess who it was?

And my true Colors would be. Religion is bad. Any form of Religion only led to war. Today almost every conflict is based on religion as well. So yes my true colors would abolish religion from earth and it would be a much much better place.

Who is accusing Christianity for anything? China wasn't even Christian at the time.

Instead of trying to find information to fit your narrative you should start asking questions why you think that "Muslims are probably Number 1 at oppressing others through out history" and what led you to make that conclusion. Whatever it is start questioning those sources. It's not like information is difficult to get. Even Wikipedia is decent source.
Dunki
Member
(12-06-2017, 06:39 PM)

Originally Posted by Resident_UA

Who is accusing Christianity for anything? China wasn't even Christian at the time.

Instead of trying to find information to fit your narrative you should start asking questions why you think that "Muslims are probably Number 1 at oppressing others through out history" and what led you to make that conclusion. Whatever it is start questioning those sources. It's not like information is difficult to get. Even Wikipedia is decent source.

I gave these sources...... What else do you want me to link? Mohammed shouting "YEAH WE ARE SHITTY PEOPLE and Nr 1 Oppressors?"

And people did that when I compared Islam with Christianity , their crusades etc. Stallion for example did this. And what led me to this conclusion? History did. For today new and media does. The sources I liked do and so on.

The satement you can argue means that I acknowledge that it is debatable but that they are on the same level.
Resident_UA
Member
(12-06-2017, 06:52 PM)
Resident_UA's Avatar

Originally Posted by Dunki

I gave these sources...... What else do you want me to link? Mohammed shouting "YEAH WE ARE SHITTY PEOPLE and Nr 1 Oppressors?"

And people did that when I compared Islam with Christianity , their crusades etc. Stallion for example did this. And what led me to this conclusion? History did. For today new and media does. The sources I liked do and so on.

The satement you can argue means that I acknowledge that it is debatable but that they are on the same level.

Why do you keep talking about Christianity? What did I ever say about Christianity? Just think about why you keep saying the same things over and over again while I'm not even talking about them.
monegames
Member
(12-06-2017, 07:57 PM)

Originally Posted by Resident_UA

Why do you keep talking about Christianity? What did I ever say about Christianity? Just think about why you keep saying the same things over and over again while I'm not even talking about them.

Originally Posted by Resident_UA

Dude, read like Wikipedia post or something. There are few fun articles on Crusades. I also heard that China was fun. How ignorant can you be?

Unless you were talking about some other Crusades, not Christianity related, you did mention Christianity.
Resident_UA
Member
(12-06-2017, 08:01 PM)
Resident_UA's Avatar

Originally Posted by monegames

Unless you were talking about some other Crusades, not Christianity related, you did mention Christianity.

I also mentioned China. I didn't talk about Christianity, nor did I single it out. What's your point? I that the only event in history you are familiar with?

Just as reminder, this is the statement that I'm referring too. And I think it's extremely racist. I mean this implies that Nazis were better than Muslims.

1. Muslims are probably Number 1 at oppressing others through out history. Let us not forget this. I am sorry I give you the white men and we can argue who is worse in this regard but Muslims did not better and most importantly they are doing it today like they did before.

HStallion
Now what's the next step in your master plan?
(12-06-2017, 08:05 PM)
HStallion's Avatar

Originally Posted by Dunki

I gave these sources...... What else do you want me to link? Mohammed shouting "YEAH WE ARE SHITTY PEOPLE and Nr 1 Oppressors?"

And people did that when I compared Islam with Christianity , their crusades etc. Stallion for example did this. And what led me to this conclusion? History did. For today new and media does. The sources I liked do and so on.

The satement you can argue means that I acknowledge that it is debatable but that they are on the same level.

Because your links and sources don't back up your claim that Muslims are and still are the No. 1 oppressors in the world. You've already moved your goal posts and are trying to deflect to people talking bad about Christanity but you've still not given any kind of real proof that Muslims are the greatest oppressors in history.
monegames
Member
(12-06-2017, 08:14 PM)

Originally Posted by Resident_UA

I also mentioned China. I didn't talk about Christianity, nor did I single it out. What's your point? I that the only event in history you are familiar with?

Just as reminder, this is the statement that I'm referring too. And I think it's extremely racist. I mean this implies that Nazis were better than Muslims.

No one said you singled out Christianity, and your first post did talk about Christianity.

Depends on how you rank oppressors. Just on numbers Nazis are pretty low on the scale. America, Christianity, Islam, and others would definitely rank higher. Ideologically Nazism probably rank pretty high.
Resident_UA
Member
(12-06-2017, 08:22 PM)
Resident_UA's Avatar

Originally Posted by monegames

No one said you singled out Christianity, and your first post did talk about Christianity.

Depends on how you rank oppressors. Just on numbers Nazis are pretty low on the scale. America, Christianity, Islam, and others would definitely rank higher. Ideologically Nazism probably rank pretty high.

I'm not here to rank oppressors. I just think that you need to have very specific view on history/race to make that statement.
Typhoon_Ex
Member
(12-06-2017, 08:29 PM)
Typhoon_Ex's Avatar
Well, I guess this will resolve the conflict once and for all.
EuropeOG
Member
(12-06-2017, 08:32 PM)
EuropeOG's Avatar

Originally Posted by Typhoon_Ex

Well, I guess this will resolve the conflict once and for all.

Trump is highly respected in the middle East, the most respected.
Lynn616
Member
(12-06-2017, 09:12 PM)
Lynn616's Avatar
Right or wrong it certainly shouldn't instigate violence. That would be absurd.
sans_pants
avec_pťnis
(12-06-2017, 09:28 PM)
sans_pants's Avatar

Originally Posted by Lynn616

Right or wrong it certainly shouldn't instigate violence. That would be absurd.

good luck with that
oliander
Member
(12-06-2017, 09:30 PM)
oliander's Avatar

Originally Posted by Lynn616

Right or wrong it certainly shouldn't instigate violence. That would be absurd.

I'm sorry, but I can't hear you over the half a century of unending territorial violence over Jerusalem.
TTOOLL
Member
(12-06-2017, 09:30 PM)
TTOOLL's Avatar

Originally Posted by Lynn616

Right or wrong it certainly shouldn't instigate violence. That would be absurd.

It won't, Islam is the religion of peace ;)
BANGS
Member
(12-06-2017, 09:32 PM)
BANGS's Avatar
A bunch of foaming mouthed idiots are ready to be killed over something as pointless as a label? Why does this sound familiar???
RefigeKru
Member
(12-06-2017, 09:37 PM)
RefigeKru's Avatar

Originally Posted by TTOOLL

It won't, Islam is the religion of peace ;)

I think in this conflict they actually are when you compare the casualties.

That is point you were making though right?
mashoutposse
Member
(12-06-2017, 09:48 PM)
mashoutposse's Avatar
Trump did it, so itís bad. Seriously. I think he has horrendously bad judgment on practically all matters.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
(12-06-2017, 09:53 PM)
Wolfgunblood Garopa's Avatar

Originally Posted by Typhoon_Ex

Well, I guess this will resolve the conflict once and for all.

Jared Kushner, after months of careful deliberation, finally reported his considerations for peace in the middle east. He left a crinkled up napkin on the president's desk. 'publically recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel' was written on it in crayon.
Dunki
Member
(12-06-2017, 10:05 PM)

Originally Posted by Resident_UA

Why do you keep talking about Christianity? What did I ever say about Christianity? Just think about why you keep saying the same things over and over again while I'm not even talking about them.

Because we talked about Nr 1 of oppressors and the conversation was basically how dare I put the Islam on the same level as Christianity. Even dare to say that I believe they are worse because of what happens still today.

Then you and Stallion also went one how i need to learn more about history while I even provided links and sources and all you guys did was to say "no it is not true". Without providing any evidence for it.

Still to put Islam or Muslims in some vicim role is utterly ridiculous and I stand by this.
Lionel Richie
Member
(12-06-2017, 10:16 PM)
Lionel Richie's Avatar

Originally Posted by LordOfChaos

This is the red line for a lot of Muslims. If this goes through, there will be violence, guaranteed.

Trump is betting on that, you can be sure.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
(12-06-2017, 10:23 PM)
Wolfgunblood Garopa's Avatar
I wonder what those who voted against Hillary Clinton because she was such a war hawk think about this
BANGS
Member
(12-06-2017, 10:25 PM)
BANGS's Avatar

Originally Posted by Wolfgunblood Garopa

I wonder what those who voted against Hillary Clinton because she was such a war hawk think about this

pffft...

Selling nuclear material to Russia and then provoking both Russia and Syria is somehow comparable to just calling a capital city what it is and angering a bunch of morons throwing rocks and shit?
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
(12-06-2017, 10:28 PM)
Wolfgunblood Garopa's Avatar

Originally Posted by BANGS

pffft...

Selling nuclear material to Russia and then provoking both Russia and Syria is somehow comparable to just calling a capital city what it is and angering a bunch of morons throwing rocks and shit?

Step your game up
oliander
Member
(12-06-2017, 10:29 PM)
oliander's Avatar

Originally Posted by Wolfgunblood Garopa

I wonder what those who voted against Hillary Clinton because she was such a war hawk think about this

After seeing what Hillary's policies have caused in present day Libya, I think they are feeling pretty vindicated.
Grits N Gravy
Junior Member
(12-06-2017, 10:30 PM)
HOLY WAAAAAAAAAAAAAARS
T.v
Member
(12-06-2017, 10:31 PM)
T.v's Avatar
You can debate about what's right or wrong, you can shit up the thread ranting about unrelated stuff, but this is a horrendously stupid move however you look at it. Fueled only by superficial motives.
Dunki
Member
(12-06-2017, 10:32 PM)

Originally Posted by Lionel Richie

Trump is betting on that, you can be sure.

That is also what he has promised. And Trump also has a very strong connection Jewish people not only because of his Jewish family members. Again Prob terrible Time and political decision but on a human and morrally standpoint it is understandable IMO.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
(12-06-2017, 10:34 PM)
Wolfgunblood Garopa's Avatar

Originally Posted by oliander

After seeing what Hillary's policies have caused in present day Libya, I think they are feeling pretty vindicated.

How so? Which of Hillary Clinton's policies in Libya makes an instigation like recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel feel like vindication for beliefs that she was a war hawk?
Phoenix RISING
Member
(12-06-2017, 10:41 PM)
Phoenix RISING's Avatar

Originally Posted by LordOfChaos

This is the red line for a lot of Muslims. If this goes through, there will be violence, guaranteed.

It's more or less an act of war TBQH...the inevitable response will likely be an excuse to finish what they started with the Zionist movement.
BANGS
Member
(12-06-2017, 10:41 PM)
BANGS's Avatar

Originally Posted by Phoenix RISING

It's more or less an act of war

lmfao...
Dunki
Member
(12-06-2017, 10:45 PM)

Originally Posted by Phoenix RISING

It's more or less an act of war TBQH...the inevitable response will likely be an excuse to finish what they started with the Zionist movement.

Listening to his11 minute speech it was pretty good and he also is for peace and a 2 state solution. And yes talk is just talk but it was not agressive in any way.
oliander
Member
(12-06-2017, 10:49 PM)
oliander's Avatar

Originally Posted by Wolfgunblood Garopa

How so? Which of Hillary Clinton's policies in Libya makes an instigation like recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel feel like vindication for beliefs that she was a war hawk?

Well for one, you're mixing up topics here. I wasn't talking about the thread topic, since you weren't either. Let me straighten out your horribly muddled question:


-Which of Hillary Clinton's policies in Libya feel like vindication for non-hillary voters?

That would the militarized dethroning of Gadhafi by NATO forces, spearheaded by Hillary after Obama overturned GWB's decision to give Libya time to disarm their WMDs. Ever since his extraction, Libya's been in absolute chaos with various warring tribes trying to fill the vacuum, and no end to hostilities in sight. Say what you will about Gadhafi, but he kept that country from tearing itself apart.

All leading up to an active and growing slave market as refugees trying to pass through Libya into Europe are being captured, castrated and sold for about as much as PS4 Pro.
Woo-Fu
incest on the subway
(12-06-2017, 10:54 PM)
Woo-Fu's Avatar

Originally Posted by HStallion

Do you purposefully poke a hornets nest despite everyone telling you not to just because the guy before you wouldn't?

No, you pour gasoline on it and toss a match. If you leave the hornets' nest there somebody is going to get stung sooner or later regardless of how far you go out of your way to not piss off the hornets. They start pissed off.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
(12-06-2017, 10:55 PM)
Wolfgunblood Garopa's Avatar

Originally Posted by oliander

Well for one, you're mixing up topics here. I wasn't talking about the thread topic, since you weren't either. Let me straighten out your horribly muddled question:


-Which of Hillary Clinton's policies in Libya feel like vindication for non-hillary voters?

That would the militarized dethroning of Gadhafi by NATO forces, spearheaded by Hillary after Obama overturned GWB's decision to give Libya time to disarm their WMDs. Ever since his extraction, Libya's been in absolute chaos with various warring tribes trying to fill the vacuum, and no end to hostilities in sight. Say what you will about Gadhafi, but he kept that country from tearing itself apart.

All leading up to an active and growing slave market as refugees trying to pass through Libya into Europe are being captured, castrated and sold for about as much as PS4 Pro.

My question was clearly in the context of this topic. I worded it precisely the way I did due to your reply.

Do you believe that not removing Gaddafi would have led to the most beneficial result for Libyans and the region today?
Resident_UA
Member
(12-06-2017, 11:08 PM)
Resident_UA's Avatar

Originally Posted by Dunki

Because we talked about Nr 1 of oppressors and the conversation was basically how dare I put the Islam on the same level as Christianity. Even dare to say that I believe they are worse because of what happens still today.

Then you and Stallion also went one how i need to learn more about history while I even provided links and sources and all you guys did was to say "no it is not true". Without providing any evidence for it.

Still to put Islam or Muslims in some vicim role is utterly ridiculous and I stand by this.

Do you read my posts or you just copy and paste the same nonsense over and over again?

I'm objecting to your statement below. I think it's racist and unfounded. Is that clear?

1. Muslims are probably Number 1 at oppressing others through out history. Let us not forget this. I am sorry I give you the white men and we can argue who is worse in this regard but Muslims did not better and most importantly they are doing it today like they did before.

gunslikewhoa
Member
(12-07-2017, 12:23 AM)
gunslikewhoa's Avatar

Originally Posted by oliander

Fun. The only reaction to this that really matters is Saudi Arabia, so it'll be interesting to see how that shakes out.

I'm certain the timing of this is somewhat related to the current shakeup in SA. There are things happening that we are not seeing yet.
Vigilant Walrus
Junior Member
(12-07-2017, 12:53 AM)
Vigilant Walrus's Avatar

Originally Posted by Dunki

I disagree. Jewish people always were seeking after a place they belong they were hunted though out history. This is something they can call home.. And sometimes you have to fight for the right thing. You can not ignore this problem because it would upset other people. And if this upsets something like the HAMAS? So what? I thought we learned tou never negotiate with Terrorists or someone like Erdogan..

We can not spoil Muslims because they can have violent reactions to something they do not like. As an Example: Charlie Hebdo massacre. I rather want to fight the radical Islam so that actual followers of the Islam don't get stigmatized anymore, they do as they want.

If this means doing the right thing yes. Sometimes you have to fight for something. How can you accept wrongdoings just because the people who would murder other people will not be triggered by it?

There are over 2 billion muslims in the world. How can you even possible equate the values, beliefs and faiths of so many people on a few extremists? Muslims are as different as white peoples, or asian peoples or african peoples. Many people who call themselves muslims are culturally muslims but not practicing.
Dunki
Member
(12-07-2017, 12:56 AM)

Originally Posted by Resident_UA

Do you read my posts or you just copy and paste the same nonsense over and over again?

I'm objecting to your statement below. I think it's racist and unfounded. Is that clear?

And I gave you sources and articles staing its true and not unfounded. How is this not clear? Also there is a probably and that you can argue about it so it means it debatable. And this has nothing to do with racism. Islam or religion in general is something you choose not something you are born with.
Dunki
Member
(12-07-2017, 01:02 AM)

Originally Posted by Vigilant Walrus

There are over 2 billion muslims in the world. How can you even possible equate the values, beliefs and faiths of so many people on a few extremists? Muslims are as different as white peoples, or asian peoples or african peoples. Many people who call themselves muslims are culturally muslims but not practicing.

Yes and the majority supports the Sharia, thinks homosexuality needs to be outlawed etc.
My accusation to not come from uninformed places. I did invest already way too much time on this religion. But if you want to read something here its a pretty long read but also shows how the majority of Muslims these days think. It is the same when people talk about white people. Its not all of them but many. so I guess #notallmuslims

Also let me make one thing crytstal clear. Todays radical Islam which is executed in many Islamic countries has almost nothing to do with the real essence of the Islam. It has beend radicalized. People have been brainwashed and manipulated and also because of his Islam got stigmatized in the whole world. So what to do? Fight the radical Islam.Criticize the Islam just like people criticize every other religion.

And I will say it again and again. I am not talking about American Muslims they are totally fine. But many Countries including the ones in Europe do not have this luck.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/t...iety-overview/
Vigilant Walrus
Junior Member
(12-07-2017, 01:21 AM)
Vigilant Walrus's Avatar

Originally Posted by Dunki

Yes and the majority supports the Sharia, thinks homosexuality needs to be outlawed etc.
My accusation to not come from uninformed places. I did invest already way too much time on this religion. But if you want to read something here its a pretty long read but also shows how the majority of Muslims these days think. It is the same when people talk about white people. Its not all of them but many. so I guess #notallmuslims

Also let me make one thing crytstal clear. Todays radical Islam which is executed in many Islamic countries has almost nothing to do with the real essence of the Islam. It has beend radicalized. People have been brainwashed and manipulated and also because of his Islam got stigmatized in the whole world. So what to do? Fight the radical Islam.Criticize the Islam just like people criticize every other religion.

And I will say it again and again. I am not talking about American Muslims they are totally fine. But many Countries including the ones in Europe do not have this luck.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/t...iety-overview/

You can't base the values of 2 billion on a pew survey of 38,000 people. There are so many methodological elements that go into making surveys like these completely biased.
It's factually wrong to say that based on articles like this that you can summarize what most muslims think.


Secondly, backwards thinking due to progressive views is not due to islam but rather the lack of education and social progress caused by colonialism. These countries never recovered from the insane amount of regime destabilization that has funneled the fire for hundreds of years. It decimated many of these countries to the point where they've been unable to pick themselves up.

You are wrong to piggyback all of this on islam. You need to look at sociological angle here. People don't think this way because they are islamic, but because of the circumstances. Every muslim I know here in Europe would not favor any of this. They are in Europe because they love European laws. They hate extremism. And so they should.
gunslikewhoa
Member
(12-07-2017, 01:37 AM)
gunslikewhoa's Avatar

Originally Posted by gunslikewhoa

I'm certain the timing of this is somewhat related to the current shakeup in SA. There are things happening that we are not seeing yet.

The GCC states will express some disappointment publicly about Jerusalem. They're not going to go overboard with it. They knew this was coming.

The NYT reported a few weeks ago that Mahmoud Abbas visited Riyadh last month and was presented with a peace plan that was unfavorable to the Palestinians. Part of the deal was no East Jerusalem as their capital.

Trump visited SA and Israel six months ago. Now there are things like this happening: http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Com...-Israel-514256

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Bah...y-visit-505308

When Erdogan says this is a red line, he may be right. It just might not be the red line he thinks it is. It looks like this is all part of building an anti-Iranian GCC-Israeli coalition.

So the Jerusalem stuff isn't just one move. There's more going on, which means there's a lot more at stake. If it works out, great. If this is a mistake, it will be a much bigger mistake than any of us realize yet.
Dunki
Member
(12-07-2017, 01:46 AM)

Originally Posted by Vigilant Walrus

You can't base the values of 2 billion on a pew survey of 38,000 people. There are so many methodological elements that go into making surveys like these completely biased.
It's factually wrong to say that based on articles like this that you can summarize what most muslims think.


Secondly, backwards thinking due to progressive views is not due to islam but rather the lack of education and social progress caused by colonialism. These countries never recovered from the insane amount of regime destabilization that has funneled the fire for hundreds of years. It decimated many of these countries to the point where they've been unable to pick themselves up.

You are wrong to piggyback all of this on islam. You need to look at sociological angle here. People don't think this way because they are islamic, but because of the circumstances. Every muslim I know here in Europe would not favor any of this. They are in Europe because they love European laws. They hate extremism. And so they should.

38k people are quite a lot to get actual statistics. This is how it works. And yes it is based on the radicalization of Islam raiging in the 60s and 70s. People get manipulated in Mosquese and Imam's teaching their radical beliefs. To blame it on social standings is pretty naive in my opinion.

Ok how about another survey in which 40% of young Muslims born in the UK are in favor of the Sahria as offical law. Whats really dangerous is the radicalization of the youth. Just watch this how the situation in Germany is right now. It was aired in I think 2015 on a very central TV station. Its not some fox bullshit or Breitbart but rather facts regarding the Islam in Germany.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVWAIKoatWM

But this goes really off topic so we better create a new thread if you want to talk more about this.
Lynn616
Member
(12-07-2017, 01:49 AM)
Lynn616's Avatar

Originally Posted by Wolfgunblood Garopa

How so? Which of Hillary Clinton's policies in Libya makes an instigation like recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel feel like vindication for beliefs that she was a war hawk?

Are you saying that recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel somehow makes Trump a war hawk? That cant be what you are implying.
Damerman
Member
(12-07-2017, 02:04 AM)
Damerman's Avatar

Originally Posted by Wolfgunblood Garopa

My question was clearly in the context of this topic. I worded it precisely the way I did due to your reply.

Do you believe that not removing Gaddafi would have led to the most beneficial result for Libyans and the region today?

Lets be honest with ourselves here. I want gaddafi out as much as the next guy, but libya was and is an unmitigated disaster. Removing him around the time of the arab spring was foolish, and we can see the repercussions till this day.
Damerman
Member
(12-07-2017, 02:06 AM)
Damerman's Avatar

Originally Posted by Lynn616

Are you saying that recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel somehow makes Trump a war hawk? That cant be what you are implying.

That plus all the other bullshit he is trying to pass off as diplomacy.

If you think todayís decision isnít a catalyst for trouble in the future, you havenít been paying attention to history and arguably know next to nothing about the situation.
nephilimdj
Member
(12-07-2017, 02:22 AM)
nephilimdj's Avatar

Originally Posted by Wolfgunblood Garopa

I wonder what those who voted against Hillary Clinton because she was such a war hawk think about this

It was Obama who personally demanded it to be listed as the capital in 2012

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...lem-reference/

(CNN) - Democrats voted to update their party's platform Wednesday evening at their convention to include a reference to Jerusalem being the capital of Israel, as well as the insertion of the word "God," neither of which was included in their platform this year but was in previous platforms.
President Barack Obama himself intervened regarding the Jerusalem language, a senior Democratic source told CNN, adding, that he thought the original draft was "a strong statement and he didn't want there to be any confusion about his unshakeable commitment to the security of state israel. The issue of the day is Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah."

Pomerlaw
Member
(12-07-2017, 02:34 AM)
Pomerlaw's Avatar
Religion is a poison
KevinRo
Member
(12-07-2017, 03:05 AM)
KevinRo's Avatar

Originally Posted by nephilimdj

It was Obama who personally demanded it to be listed as the capital in 2012

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...lem-reference/

Glitch in the Matrix.
Ubername
Member
(12-07-2017, 03:19 AM)
Ubername's Avatar
Why isn't it?
CampbellzSoup
Member
(12-07-2017, 03:43 AM)
CampbellzSoup's Avatar
Someone needed to do this....

Thread Tools