Its about equality for LBGT people
I totally wondering that by myself. I always liked Lindner the most from all the FDP-guys like Westerwelle and Brüderle the most, but I am not buying one word he says
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German Federal Elections 2017 |OT| Electing the new leader of the free world
- Thread starter Xando
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I totally wondering that by myself. I always liked Lindner the most from all the FDP-guys like Westerwelle and Brüderle the most, but I am not buying one word he says
waveuponwave
Member
At first people flocked to Schulz because he's a fresh face (well, not really, but noone pays attention to people in the European parliament), but in the end he didn't promise anything fundamentally different from what the grand coalition is doing right now.
The SPD lost a huge chunk of their support base when they pushed the Agenda 2010 reforms with all the included cuts to social welfare and worker's rights. They won't get those voters back until they reverse that course. Yeah, Schulz did some lipservice to adjusting Hartz IV (unemployment/welfare benefits), but small corrections aren't enough when the whole system is broken and the SPD was the party that broke it.
Right now there is no big difference between the SPD and Merkel's CDU (the CSU is another story). So why vote for Schulz if you can just continue with Merkel?
It's too bad, because looks like the only chance for a left government will be red-red-green again and the SPD will never go for it. (And as for Die Linke, while I like their social policies, their constant infighting about ideological questions just doesn't paint them as a party you could envision in a stable government)
Muffin1611
Banned
You can assume what you want about me, I just think it's wrong that they can't do these things while I can. We're talking about things they are denied because of the sexual orientation they were born with. A simple equality issue.
I don't see how you could think that doesn't need hard pushing at all. It should have been resolved already, if anything.
Not to mention that I see a bi buddy of mine complaining about CDU stances about it on Twitter occasionally. But I wouldn't even need that to justify my stance on this.
There are so many things to fight against and you pick this topic out of all things. Why again?
Well that's kind of the point and the problem. Kohl gets celebrated by conservatives and liberal/leftwing-liberals media just rolls over instead of taking a more critical look at his reign. Reunification devolved into a poorly-planned cash grab benefitting private interests and longheld ignorance in the face of right-wing extremism establishing itself in the new eastern states. Many problems EU and Eurozone face today are results from things implemented during the Kohl chancellorship. Top-down EU, no central oversight over economies in the Eurozone but shared currency, limited and questionable democracy and transparency in the EU etc. Kohl was involved into several big corruption scandals and valued his personal promises to anonymous shady donators more than the general populace and the justice system, he now took his knowledge into his grave.
I mean, one can have a stance without shouting around aggressively etc. That's not wrong and highly encouraged. For some reason, instead of having proper discussions, that often isn't the case. Groups of people get patronized for the reason I stated earlier. I have a problem with that. In general, I prefer people to stand up for their own rights. It's ok to support them then. Otherwise...not really.
If the people it concerns are mostly fine with it, I don't see a problem. Heck, why would I butt into other people's affairs if it's not really wanted?
What's the point of your one-liners again?
The part about unemployment has nothing to do with Merkel though.
Bedameister
Member
Exactly. That's why I hate the CDU and never would vote for them (I can't anyways cause I would have to vote CSU which I'd rather cut my hand off than do that).
The CDU/CSU are way too conservative for me. No matter how good of a job Merkel is doing I just hate her party so much.
And I also have a bad gut feeling about black/yellow. I'm not sure if I would want that again. I also don't understand why the FDP has such good numbers right now. Where did that come from? Is it also just Lindner?
No idea either but I guess it's because a lot of the other parties didn't really do that much and the FDP couldn't earn negative points?
ClosingADoor
Member
Hm, interesting. Wonder how it is compared to Holland over here. I did know that German employees had a lot of cuts earlier and wage stagnation, but thought that was over now with the economy doing better. I read there are a lot of unions that have their agreements expiring this year so they can demand better wages and such, right? When the economy goes up, it is important to have the population get the benefits of it.
Muffin1611
Banned
I don't really get what there is to be discussed though? They have less rights, pure and simple, for no logical reason.
And I find it to be odd that I, I dunno, need permission from over 50% of them to stand up for their rights apparently?
waveuponwave
Member
Unfortunately the FDP will always get votes just with their promise to cut taxes. I guess people don't realize they only mean cutting taxes for the rich and to many their private income seems more important than the fact we need tax revenue to fund infrastructure, education etc.
Depends. Economic policy more or less aligns with the Clinton/Centrist-Wing. Socially they are a bit more conservative (no gay marriage, conservative drug policy etc.) Overt, flag-waving patriotism, exceptionalism and militarism/interventionism like it exists plenty in the Democratic Party is a no go in all German parties except AFD, though there are right-wing factions in the CDU. Merkel represents NOT the center, but rather a left-leaning faction of the CDU. The party could easily shift to the right and go more Tory again after Merkel is finished.
Bernie-Wing, or at least Bernie himself, would just be SPD in Germany. Lol at people calling him "Socialist". Die Linke, our most leftwing mainstrem party, aren't socialists either, by the way, though there are minority factions fighting for Democratic Socialism in the party. Mainstream faction, who take part in several regional governments, are leftwing Social Democrats.
We have several radical communist/socialist leftwing parties, DKP, MLPD and PSG, but they really play absolutely no role at all and get barely any votes. Radical Right (NPD, pure Neonazis) is more relevant, though at present only on regional and local levels. One can argue that AFD at least partly encapsulates the Radial Right these days, though.
"Freedom" as a buzzword is appealing to the youth as well (See Libertarians in the US), coupled with the boredom of Great Coalition. Same happened in 2009, then everyone was surprised that the FDP only cared about cutting taxes for their favourite client groups.
Well, it started off with me saying that I hope the Greens end with below 5%.
You don't need permission for that but you can look like a dick because of it, depending on how you do it. 1.21Gigawatts had the best answer for that.
Hm, I guess it's the old problem of people forgetting about things too fast.
Muffin1611
Banned
Excuse me? What is different about Gigawatts saying it's a symbol for progressive modern society and me saying it's a basic rights issue that shouldn't even exist in exactly that progressive modern society?
The only difference I pointed out is that adoption rights would change plenty instead of just being symbolism.
Seperately from that, it sounds ludicrous to me that you're apparently more concerned with the optics of advocating for said rights than said rights actually ever happening.
I'll repeat myself, I don't need every gay person I know to tell me that I'm allowed to advocate for their equality, nor will I feel patronizing for doing so. It's the natural thing to do as long as a sizeable part of them want that equality.
Bitch Pudding
Member
Merkel herself - unlike SPD voters and politicians - gave Schröder credit for his agenda 2010.
That said, she's now chancellor for almost 12 years, so I think she too deserves some credit for the low unemployment rate, especially if you look at our neighbors to the south.
I'd actually like a coalition between the CDU and the greens.
I'm always a bit torn between SPD and CDU but SPD opening up to a coalition with die Linke is a major turn off for me.
I'm always a bit torn between SPD and CDU but SPD opening up to a coalition with die Linke is a major turn off for me.
Tell that to the VW or Opel employee who got through the financial crisis with a job thanks to her policy.
Bitch Pudding
Member
I've heard the CSU isn't such a big fan of this, though. A lot has to happen before this works out, including getting rid of Problem-Horst.
Every party seems to promise cutting taxes - for their respective audiences, that is.
MrMysterio
Member
Any of the parties guaranteeing some money for people coming back from the UK? (thx brexit)
Some Euros, you know, so we know how a future-proof (lol) currency looks like?
A crash-course in Eurovision?
Exotic produce like Baumkuchen?
A Berlin-Hipster starter-pack?
Yes? Bitte?
Some Euros, you know, so we know how a future-proof (lol) currency looks like?
A crash-course in Eurovision?
Exotic produce like Baumkuchen?
A Berlin-Hipster starter-pack?
Yes? Bitte?
Tbh i don't think Seehofer or the CSU has too much power in Berlin anymore.
He basically went all in with his childish 'Obergrenze' bullshit and Merkel just ignored him.
Anyway, i'd be open to kick Seehofer and the whole CSU into opposition.
Patrick Bateman
Member
There was an interesting article by the Zeit where they said that the Green-party again completely misses the real topics.
I mean I'm all pro "marriage for all", but making this a central point of a party program seems quite stupid and ignorant to the real problems..
We got the Maut thanks to the CSU.
hanspampel
Banned
Those are the current survey findings btw:
Asked who they preferred as chancellor, we got the following results:
CDU/CSU: 95% Merkel
SPD: 73% Schulz
Linke: 55% Schulz
FDP: 82% Merkel
Grüne: 44% Schulz, 39% Merkel
http://www.forschungsgruppe.de/Aktuelles/Politbarometer/
Die Grünen are so dead
from #1 of the small to last behind AFD and even Linkspartei
have to say, i very much like it
not AFD and Linkspartei being high, but Die Grünen being low
it's terrifying how well Germany is doing. Schwarz / Gelb will keep it that way
still not implemented. one could only hope
Die Union needs those 7 or 9% to be the strongest party
I hope you are not talking about the Abwrackprämie, because this was an idea from the SPD.
Muffin1611
Banned
I mean, I can see why some think that, but I completely disagree. Elimination of systemic discrimination should come before any economic problems.
Patrick Bateman
Member
You actually have to give Merkel credit for that, she did a lot of things the Green Party always talked about but never could achieve. Such as getting rid of nuclear power plants.
The Green Party became sort of irrelevant right now..
Well, in my opinion they should start with proper politics for refugees, immigrants, the EU and against Islamic and right wing extremism.
Those topics are far more important.
I don't say that they should cut out gay rights completely, but putting this as your main topic is missed politics..
The "you" was meant as "one", so it wasn't about you specifically.
Those are two different statements for me. The first one talks about progressive and modern society and the symbolism connected with it. The second one says it's for the LBGT people.
The latter is what I dislike due to what I already mentioned above. And as I said, depending on how you argue for the latter, you can come off as a dick.
Like: If I wasn't allowed to post in the community section of the gaming part due to some rules (no one named "Lucumo" allowed or whatever) and I didn't really care for it...if then someone would step up and fervently argue with the mods or whatever, I would tell him/her to fuck off (reasons for that are also somewhere above).
I don't really care for the rights happening. As I already said, adoption is a tough issue (would need some proper discussions about it) and apart from that, they can have everything for all I care. I'm personally also not interested in the symbolism (though, I can respect it). As long as most people are happy, that's fine.
The "sizable part" wanting it is definitely the crux, though, we also already talked about that.
Helps a lot. Will help even more in a few years. Then there is also the "Made in Germany" which helped in the financial crisis. Sure, Merkel had her part but that one was relatively small in this instance (as opposed to what it seemed like in that post).
Also, in light of this graphic, I want to reiterate what I said in another thread some time ago: Screw Gröhe.
Unfortunately, public opinion is a fickle thing. I'm definitely pro power plant (this is another reason I dislike Green). But I guess our country's borders will protect us from a meltdown in a neighbouring country.
I was more talking of the whole package (including abwrackprämie, kurzarbeit etc.)
MrMysterio
Member
Totally not up to date on German "Innenpolitik" - is Merkel as successful within Germany as she seems to be outside of it?
I'd be quite interested what the biggest flaw in the CDU is currently? Is it Schaeuble not spending money on schools? Technology? Something else? Or is everything just kind of good in Germany?
I'd be quite interested what the biggest flaw in the CDU is currently? Is it Schaeuble not spending money on schools? Technology? Something else? Or is everything just kind of good in Germany?
Muffin1611
Banned
The thing about basic rights is just that: If there's even only one gay couple in the country that wants to get married and adopt children, they should be able to do so. It doesn't matter how big the minority is, or how big the part of the minority that cares about it is.
I just really don't get what there is to discuss where any normal person can sound like a dick about it. Your advocating for simple equality after all. CDU politicians frequently struggle to come up with legitimate reasons when asked about it.
Yep, Merkel is generally liked and the US and UK helped her a lot.
From my perspective (working in the health care sector, currently somewhere higher up), it's Gröhe and his policies which will cost us an arm and a leg and will screw over the younger people. There is also a lot of talk about digitalization etc and of course there are a lot of issues in general, there always are. I would still say people are generally happy with the current situation.
hanspampel
Banned
basically just safety / criminality and migration. but on that case CDU gained every loss to the AFD back over time. I personally very much agree with the FPD stance on those matters. You can have it both! You don't need to be on the green "Willkommens Kultur" or AFD "Abschottung" train
social inequity is also talked about a lot, but i don't see many people feel that way. definitely not enough to make a major impact on elections
and yes we don't have a US, UK, or FR situation, where half the country very much dislikes one and the other half agrees on that position
"rational" Germany does not agree
Grüne on all time low and Piraten are dead
The only partys pushing those kind of matters
Well the FDP has a similar stance, but a totally different approach.
It's just a general "equity for all" stance and no "we need to make LGBT issues a primarily"
There were moments during the refugee crisis where she looked like she was going down but now she's back to being one of the most popular politicians.
Well I'd guess the biggest flaw is the lack of reinvestment.
Schäuble has been going for a surplus these last years to get the deficit down.
Thanks to the good economic situation we've largely been spared with the austerity you see in the UK for example.
The biggest flaw of the CDU is probably the kicking down the can mentality they have. It's basically continue like the last 12 years and they shy away from the bigger topics until Merkel deems it necessary to keep public opinion.
The Greens could be so much bigger again if it wasn't for their idealist left-wing fraction. In both BW with Kretschmann & Palmer, and SH with Habeck they have faces which represent policies which tackle problems beyond some ideology.
On a federal level, they only appear with face palm worthy news as of lately.
On a federal level, they only appear with face palm worthy news as of lately.
Bitch Pudding
Member
Being dependent on Merkel, for now. A more conservative candidate would have much more difficulties to address people from the Center-left like she does.
MrMysterio
Member
Looking over from the UK, and seeing how Germany handled the influx of refugees, was very impressive.
I remember that reinvestment has always been an issue in Germany, but that was when Schroeder was on his way out and debt kept rising.
I remember that reinvestment has always been an issue in Germany, but that was when Schroeder was on his way out and debt kept rising.
Hm, that's probably something we disagree on. I guess I'm more of the kind of person that is less about the individual and more about the group (so definitely not typical Western culture). So one couple wanting that doesn't really matter to me if there are enough that simply don't care.
Part is likely about religious nonsense and another part is falling in line with the party guideline. So obviously some people would struggle when asked about it.
Patrick Bateman
Member
I wouldn't even know who they would have left to jump in as a proper candidate if Merkel wouldn't candidate.
Obviously nobody from that conservative clown show called CSU..
Eh.
Getting rid of nuclear power was decided under red/green.
CDU and FDP were against this and even openly said that they would reverse it if they came to power.
When they came to power 10 yrs later they extended the allowed run times for all nuclear power plants mere months before Fukushima ...
Reading this thread, it's no surprise Merkel is this popular ...
hanspampel
Banned
he probably meant to revers that revers
Merkel got credit for that
if you think she deserves that or not, is a different topic
Julia Klöckner or Ursula von der Leyen
it's funny how the CDU has no real high profile male politician with realistic ambitions anymore
Patrick Bateman
Member
Yes, I know. But after Fukushima they completely rowed back and decided to phase-out nuclear power until 2022..
If it wasn't all about that scandal he would have had a great chance to become the next chancellor.
Dude was amazingly popular before that.
Why is Hartz IV broken?
Some parties in Italy are talking about setting up a similar system, but that sounds like a pipe dream right now.
PdotMichael
Banned
Looking at Maslow's hierarchy of needs that's not how people operate.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
It must be good to live in a country with better candidates and a superior electoral system. What is on the agenda right now?
I fail to see the achievement.
How could she have not done it after Fukushima?
Every other party would have done it, even the FDP was for it.
Patrick Bateman
Member
I guess so.
It was more about that she took away one of THE main subjects of the green party.
It's not that SHE did it, but that the green party lost said subject.
With "idealist" faction, you probably mean the faction where people still care about any values at instead of going full centrist-conservative. The backlash about the Greens daring to insist on keeping discrimination of gay people out of a possible coalition is telling, and disgusting. Minority rights are not a bargaining chip.
Palmer is pure scum. He advocates letting refugees starve or drown or push them back at the border with violence. He likes to see himself in the media because he speculates about a bigger role on a federal level. He is the green KT zu Guttenberg, a photogenic, fundamentally empty and reactionary person looking out for advancing his career only.
Kretschmann is just a CDU guy who caves in to every single demand by the industry. Really, why the fuck do you want to Green Party to turn into a CDU 2.0? Caring about social justice and inequality is "Idealism"? Did you take a look at statistics about inequality, dependance of education on class background, about the horrible situation regarding room to live in every slightly bigger city, the lack of taxation on corporations and the rich class? Those classic green themes that completely abandoned in favor of spineless centrist garbage, which now rightfully bites them in the ass big time. There is no need to vote for them anymore, just vote CDU, it's the same.
By the way, there is no politics without ideology.
Yeah, the lack of knowledge regarding programs and policies of Merkel/CDU/FDP and their past governments is staggering. Their internet/digital policy alone is fucking incompetent, to be very gentle. Many people seem like "Well she isn't crazy as Trump and I guess did good on refugees so we should keep her?"
"
It creates inherited poverty because your children get fucked too, especially if you are a single mom/father. You can barely afford to feed them and buy them needed things for school. Hartz4 set up a giant beureaucray having nothing to do but controll, punish and harass poor and unemployed people. Hartz4 and the Agenda2010 were built upon the neoliberal ideology of poor people being to blame for being poor, they just need to work harder or to pursue jobs more aggressively! It enabled employers and corporations to harass and oppress their workers because they were deathly afraid of losing their job and sliding into the Hartz4 system. They invented the frankly INSANE system of 1 euro-jobs, were unemployed people do jobs that could be done by regular workers and get paid basically nothing, so so they have work, because "work builds character". It's straight out of the 19th century. They constantly throw pointless programs for "further education" at you, where people sit in pointless seminars all day. The main purpose of those is to clean up the unemployment numbers, because people currently in those programs do not count.
The paperwork for Hartz4 and related things is insane. It's one of the reasons the rate of homeless people goes nothing but up, coupled with rising rents. People struggling with abduction and without friends or family fail to comply with the absurd demands of the system so they end up homeless. Sometimes just because the Jobcenter failed to pay the rent. Landlord doesn't care, throws tentant out on the street.
Hartz4, in general, is drastically lower than the former system because they just threw together basic social security for people who can't work anymore with the normal unemployement welfare. You can basically live under a roof and eat, if you are able to find a room, that's it. You are otherwise excluded from society. It's less worse for single people, but it's a catastrophe for families.
Being a recipient of "Hartz4" was and is basically synonymous with being a heroin-addicted criminal even though millions of people are on it. It's one of the most-often used insults in Germany. There is a whole industry of "Hartz4-TV" doing nothing but painting poor people as sort of halfwitted animals who sit on couches in dirty social housing apartments all day and drink beer so the middle class people who watch it can laugh about the stupid poor Hartz4-recipients. It's all fake documentaries. It basically created the German version of GOP voters who rather vote against their interests than those dirty poor getting a bite more from the share. Hating Hartz4-recipients, by the way, is today often coupled with racism because "They all just want our welfare, look at them, they do not want to work, it's just the way those orientals are..." etc.
Hartz4, by the way, is named after Peter Hartz, a former Volkswagen manager, who was a leading member of a commission out of the industry basically writing the neoliberal reform of the job market and welfare state for former chancellor Gerhard Schröder and his government. Yes, leading figures from business world wrote those laws. He was later convicted of corruption and other things. The Social Democrats, like Labour, did never recover from the damage Schröder and his cronies did to them (Schröder went on to be best buddy with Vlad Putin and work for Gazprom, by the way). Greens went centrist to conservative with a green pastiche, but SPD is flailing ever since, between centrism and trying to be a bit left but not really because the Left Party is already there.
People in this thread claiming "Germany is well off" talk about corporations and the upper class. Wages stagnated, inequality rises. Growth and GDP alone are completely pointless to describe how well off a society is. Many people from the poorer parts of society basically just went away and don't take part anymore. Some vote right-wing extremists, millions do not vote at all.