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The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM
- Thread starter Hasney
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The EU is far more trustworthy on rights then the UK
The Friendly Monster
Member
I think this is where we disagree. The EU has been guaranteeing the rights of these citizens (both UK and rEU) for decades. I consider them as far more trustworthy in this matter, just for the sake of continuity they should be the ones who to have jurisdiction in these matters in my opinion.
Please stop refering to the EU as a country, it isn't. This is not two equal partners deciding to split.
Theonik
Member
lol
Norwegian_Imposter
Member
As a brit living in Europe. Screw brexit seriously
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/20/britons-living-in-europe-could-lose-right-to-live-in-another-eu-country?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/20/britons-living-in-europe-could-lose-right-to-live-in-another-eu-country?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
The Friendly Monster
Member
Do you think UK citizens currently living in the rEU would like the UK or the EU to have jurisdiction over their citizenship rights after Brexit?
Do you think rEU citizens currently living in the UK would like the UK or the EU to have jurisdiction over their citizenship rights after Brexit?
Tories or EU? 🤔
Theonik
Member
As a Greek Citizen in the UK you understand my predicament!
Case 1) The UK definitely. They would lose representation in the EP, and virtually all levels of EU government and for the UK to be able to care for its citizens they'd need appropriate assurances.
Case 2) Their home countries. The EU is just a mediator and makes everything much simpler.
The Friendly Monster
Member
I fall into case 1, and I vehemently disagree.
For case 2 the ECJ has jurisdiction over national governments when it comes to this issue. The ECJ is not a mediator.
Yes, but assuming that UK citizens resident in the EU aren't booted out, they will retain their rights under the ECJ as long as they are living in an EU country - the EU just want parity here with the EU citizens living in the UK afterwards too.
I don't really see how that's reductionist. EU residents in the UK are the only group that are really seeing the prospect of their rights being stripped away (again, assuming the EU don't deport all the UK citizens resident there, but there doesn't appear to be much demand for them to be doing that, so it's a fairly safe assumption)
Theonik
Member
For case 2, the ECJ only holds power in those jurisdictions as long as the governments want it to. If you don't think the UK is to be trusted, and fair enough, then you should also believe the UK could and would just repeal whatever legislation gives you these protections. Of course they never would because the other side would retaliate. The ECJ does not provide any extra peace of mind.
Damn, now I see why you don't like the EU. They have fucked up big time on Greece.
Theonik
Member
The funny thing is I /like/ the EU. Well the concept of it.
People need to just stop assuming the EU is their friends.
It is not. That's not how the EU works.
I have never assumed that, just assume they are better then the Tories. Being a mental health issue sufferer I have been treated like shit by the Tories
CyclopsRock
Member
But do you mean that EU residents in the UK should retain their existing rights, or that they should retain the same rights as the people on the UK? Because once the UK leaves the EU, the UK government is free to add or remove any rights it wants.
Theonik
Member
Politicians are only good to the people that vote for them. That's fundamentally the largest flaw in the EU as well because of the way it is structured. When the UK leaves the EU even the Tories would be expected to give more of a shit about you than the EU ever would.
Moreover one other weakness, and probably the bigger sticking point over the ECJ keeping jurisdiction for the UK is that it potentially binds the UK to future changes the EU wants to do with the legislation regarding these nationals.
EU residents in the UK should retain any rights they had under European law at the time of leaving that aren't matched or beaten by British law.
If the UK wants to suddenly surprise everyone and make a load of laws guaranteeing rights way better than those in the EU, then any EU residents should also be subject to those as long as they live in the UK
Edit: Basically I don't think EU residents should be losing any fundamental rights that will be stripped from them after leaving the EU, especially when EU residents (aside from Ireland) weren't allowed to vote in the referendum
Monty Mole
Member
They are (and should be) all doing it, this isn't news. Mark Carney himself told the banks of all colours to ensure they have contingency plans in place in case of a Hard Brexit, with the government continuing to pursue their 'no deal is better than a bad deal' policy. They would be irresponsible not to, under the circumstances and uncertainty that May's government is thrusting upon them.
As someone more than familiar with mental health issues, I can't say the Tories are any worse than Labour. They both treat mental health like a shower of shit with chronic under-funding of associated services of all types. We really need a more progressive government on that front, and I think only the Greens and LibDems have ever talked about mental health policy and actually convinced me they might actually mean it. Although, easy for them, when they won't have to form a government and back it up with funding.
CyclopsRock
Member
I agree that I'd like to see that, but surely you see how your previous statement - "EU residents in the UK are the only group that are really seeing the prospect of their rights being stripped away" - is self evidently incorrect. The more likely occurrence is that both UK nationals living in the UK and EU nationals living in the UK see their rights stripped away on the grounds that you generally have parity with those nationals in the country you're living in. In this sense, the EU nationals in the UK's experience is no different to UK nationals in the EU's - they have parity with those born in the country in that they live. The fact the UK used to be in the EU (by the time what we're talking about becomes relevant) is basically irrelevant - if you go to live in Madagascar, you don't expect to maintain a right to maternity pay because you're an EU national, even if it is a bit of a kick to the kidney if that right existed when you first moved there.
Essentially what you're asking for is for EU nationals to be guaranteed better rights than UK nationals in the UK. (Note, guaranteed, not get.)
Monty Mole
Member
It's easy. Existing EU residents in the UK should get the exact same rights as UK-born residents. Full stop. Not better, not worse. And if they would get better benefits in the EU, then they have a key advantage over most other UK residents: they'll get to return to their previous home EU country should they wish and enjoy those benefits there. I don't see how it can be done any other way, without being a complete mockery.
The Friendly Monster
Member
Just because something is not surprising doesn't make it not news though. Especially when a large number of the population said anyone arguing it would happen were fearmongering and are still in denial about the whole situation.
Monty Mole
Member
Theresa May does likely give a shit about the Brits living in other EU countries though, and whatever is agreed will need to be reciprocal. I think the bigger issue is her incompetence.
CyclopsRock
Member
I'd agree, but even that is tricky without knowing the relationship between the UK and the EU. After all, American migrants in the UK don't always get the same rights as UK citizens. Nor do most non-EU migrants, including commonwealth ones. I mean personally I have no problem promising exactly what you've said, but it has the same "doesn't totally make sense" problem as has been outlined above re: guaranteeing their existing rights.
It's got worse under Tories:
Waiting to get onto ESA properly now takes over a year!
Tories have scrapped schemes that helped people with mental health issues get back to work, like the one I was on.
Cut benefits for ESA claimants
I can now only see a therapist 8 weeks a year due to under funding
ATOS medicals have got even worse
Cutting of people who are trained to help mental health suffers in job centres
Etc etc
Labour were bad, but the Tories have been far worse
Actually, allowing the UK to reach a mutually beneficial deal is the exact opposite of what the EU wants and is absolutely not in their interest. The EU want the UK to get the absolute worst possible deal to keep any other country in the Union from trying something like this again. They have absolutely no reason to do anything but play the hardest of hardballs. Add do that that they are in an infinitely better position, and there is absolutely no reason why the EU wouldn't try to squeeze the UK for everything they have. THe worst has already happened. Both the EU and the UK will suffer from this. If would have been mutually beneficial if the UK stayed in the EU. Instead, they fucked the EU over, hard and will now pay the price in form of a series of pretty terrible (for them) trade deals they will have no choice but to accept.
CyclopsRock
Member
Well, that's not true. They might have come to the conclusion that the reasons in favour of a good deal are outweighed by the reasons against a good deal, but it's obviously, evidently, patently not true that there are absolutely no reasons to achieve a good deal.
If the two choices for May are to strip all Brits in the EU of their current rights in order to make EU residents in the UK accountable to British courts OR to guarantee all Brits in the EU their current rights in exchange of the ECJ ruling on EU nationals in the UK, I can guarantee you 100% she will go for the former. It's a smaller political loss compared to the capitulation of power that the latter would be portrayed as. I also think she has it in for the ECJ and would rather drive 1m Brits off the cliff than accept their jurisdiction.
Admittedly, I don't think it will come down to just those choices, but I still hope Barnier doesn't back down. See who blinks first.
It seems the UK is saying that UK citizens in the EU should maintain the same rights as they currently have (ie the ability to work in any of the EU27) while the EU is saying that EU citizens in the UK should have the same rights as they currently have.
The EU is saying you can't have one without the other, leading to the possibility of no one getting any rights.
The EU is saying you can't have one without the other, leading to the possibility of no one getting any rights.
Camp Freddie
Member
I fear a prisoners' dilemma is developing due to a complete lack of trust and good faith.
The best outcome could be achieved easily if both sides weren't complete dicks about it.
But if one side starts being an untrustworthy dick, the other side has to be equally dickish to avoid losing out.
I think citizens rights need to be agreed universally in the brexit treaty and enforced by a bipartite EU/UK committee that has authority to overrule the national courts.
Giving ECJ continued authority in the UK will never work when "take back control" it is pretty much the only non racist/xenophobic/crazy justification for Brexit.
Likewise, "Trust the UK courts, it's not like we'll tell EU citizens to go whistle!" will never be acceptable to the EU.
The best outcome could be achieved easily if both sides weren't complete dicks about it.
But if one side starts being an untrustworthy dick, the other side has to be equally dickish to avoid losing out.
I think citizens rights need to be agreed universally in the brexit treaty and enforced by a bipartite EU/UK committee that has authority to overrule the national courts.
Giving ECJ continued authority in the UK will never work when "take back control" it is pretty much the only non racist/xenophobic/crazy justification for Brexit.
Likewise, "Trust the UK courts, it's not like we'll tell EU citizens to go whistle!" will never be acceptable to the EU.
I should really have been more nuanced with what I was trying to say, because with things like the working time directive, or maternity pay etc, making them guaranteed for EU citizens would probably be wasted effort anyway - in reality most employers would just then not hire EU residents for jobs in the UK if they had a load more employment rights than British ones.
But existing EU residents should be guaranteed stuff like the right to come and go from the country as they had before Brexit, bring EU family members to the UK, use education at same cost as British people, things like that
I guess in a situation where everyone is going to suffer, its impossible to avoid the fact that EU residents are going to suffer as well, when they have done absolutely nothing to deserve it
Brexit is starting to impact the continent
Frankfurt Is Already Running Out of Office Space for Banks
Frankfurt Is Already Running Out of Office Space for Banks
Theonik
Member
They should knock down some of the shitty blocks from the 1950/60s some nice new new developments near Haupwache would be nice!
I posted this about Paris a couple weeks back. It's not as bad yet, but we've had to do a lot more scouting trips than we expected and the competition is getting rough (especially if you want commercial space in the more desirable districts).
Datacenter providers are going to make some good money too. A few customers starting to get jumpy about hosting their data in the UK now.
DarthMasta
Member
Fuck, things get rough when Germans think they're running out of space...
Theonik
Member
As a BTW many of Germany's datacentres are in Frankfurt as well because it's very close to where the US setup their military infrastructure after the war and where the US/DE data lines terminate. SO MUCH MONEY. ALL THE MONEY.
Too soon
Germany took in something like 1.5m refugees in the last couple years, whereas the UK took about 5 and promptly declared "WE'RE FULL!" and voted to leave the EU
I don't think thats something English people can make fun out of Germany about anymore
DarthMasta
Member
FTFY.
Big winner seems to be Frankfurt. EMA going to be interesting though.
Good thing I'm not English then.
Ah, fair enough, as you were then
I wonder what the economic hit will be with just bank services etc.. UK is a service economy, a lot of staff will go but I don't think a complete uproot is on the cards. I don't know enough about the services and how the money is made and taxed but if the HQs get shifted, UK won't see that money and that's a lot of money?
Orniletter
Banned
Amazon just expanded their footprint in Frankfurt.
https://aws.amazon.com/de/about-aws/whats-new/2017/06/third-az-in-eu-frankfurt-region/
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