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Who is the most famous person in human history?

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Jesus and Muhammed were actually real people? I thought they were characters in the bible, not actually real people.

If this was most famous literary works Bible etc.

It's like someone giving Batman as an answer.

A lot of the New Testament is treated like a historical text between Luke, Romans, Acts, and other books. Saying Jesus didn't exist because he appears in a holy book is like saying Hirohito didn't exist because the Japanese regarded him as divine.
 
Some of you guys need to read what actual historians and researchers say, and not merely the romanticized wafflings of fence sitters who don't want to stir up shit. Dr. Richard Carrier is a name you should be getting familiar with.

Tacitus and Josephus were not contemporaries of this alleged Jesus, and were writing about hearsay. There is not one single account from a proven contemporary that has confirmed a man attributed to the Jesus myth even existed.

Is it possible a man was martyred to give way to the formation of the myth? Hell, I would wager it isn't just possible, it's probable. But stop with the "was a real man, divine nature questionable" malarkey.

You want real famous? Look how many people think Cesare Borgia is literally what this figure even remotely looked like, when that doesn't even jive with the damned scripture. I'd say you could safely put him there with Mohammed or Julius Caesar, even if plebes are mistaking him for someone else. Though, that was kind of the point all along, wasn't it?
 

Heartfyre

Member
Hitler, Abraham Lincoln, or Winston Churchill, I would suggest. Modern history will always have more famous figures, even if ones such as Caesar or Charlemagne have significant, lasting influence.

While Jesus was probably a historical figure, there's no historical chronicling of his life, so I don't think he qualifies. The Bible is a text of parables and moral guidance, not a book of history.
 
Because scientists like Einstein will do more for our understanding of reality and the universe than religious figures like Jesus, Moses, or Muhammad will ever do.

Einstein was a deist who used science to help explain the divine.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Furthermore, those figures you mention touch upon basic truths of the human condition, especially Jesus and Buddha.

Your adherence to science is anti-intellectual and the fact you think science and religion is either/or is juvenile.
 
Einstein was a deist who used science to help explain the divine.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Furthermore, those figures you mention touch upon basic truths of the human condition, especially Jesus and Buddha.

Your adherence to science is anti-intellectual and the fact you think science and religion is either/or is juvenile.

Get out of here with this nonsense. You're honestly going to tell me people were out of touch with the human condition until the likes of mythical figures like Jesus, Muhammad, and Moses were penned? You do realize that the majority of the dogmas and tenets heralded by Christians originate and were incorporated after the fact from the schools of Greek philosopher scribes who contributed to the scriptures and gospels which were ultimately curated over 400 years after Jesus's supposed death by the Roman Empire, right?

Religion borrows more from schools of philosophy, both western and eastern, than the other way around. And philosophy predates all of these modern day religions significantly.

Einstein may have believed in a deity in the weakest sense of the word (Spinoza's "god"). That's not why what he's contributed has been valuable to mankind in the least.
 

Chmpocalypse

Blizzard
Some of you guys need to read what actual historians and researchers say, and not merely the romanticized wafflings of fence sitters who don't want to stir up shit. Dr. Richard Carrier is a name you should be getting familiar with.

Tacitus and Josephus were not contemporaries of this alleged Jesus, and were writing about hearsay. There is not one single account from a proven contemporary that has confirmed a man attributed to the Jesus myth even existed.

Is it possible a man was martyred to give way to the formation of the myth? Hell, I would wager it isn't just possible, it's probable. But stop with the "was a real man, divine nature questionable" malarkey.

You want real famous? Look how many people think Cesare Borgia is literally what this figure even remotely looked like, when that doesn't even jive with the damned scripture. I'd say you could safely put him there with Mohammed or Julius Caesar, even if plebes are mistaking him for someone else. Though, that was kind of the point all along, wasn't it?

Fucking THANK YOU.

Anyone who mentions Josephus as "evidence" - the mention on Jesus being a centuries-later addition acknowledged even by biblical scholars to be a forgery - instantly loses all credibility in this argument.
 
Get out of here with this nonsense. You're honestly going to tell me people were out of touch with the human condition until the likes of mythical figures like Jesus, Muhammad, and Moses were penned? You realize the majority of the dogmas and tenets heralded by Christians originate and were incorporated after the fact from the schools of Greek philosopher scribes who contributed to the scriptures and gospels which were ultimately curated over 400 years after Jesus's supposed death by the Roman Empire.

Religion borrowers more from schools of philosophy, both western and eastern, than the other way around. And philosophy predates all of these modern day religions significantly.

Einstein may have believed in a deity in the weakest sense of the word (Spinoza's "god"). That's not why what he's contributed has been valuable to mankind in the least.

This is really hard to take seriously. Most of the things you mention already existed before the Roman empire made Christianity its official religion. The early church was big on tradition and this was made sure to have lasted through various councils. The council of Nicea for instance predates the Constantine making Christianity Rome's official religion by 60 years. Most of these things you say were upheld by Rome was handed down, orally. These traditions were also established by various leaders of the church to make sure everyone was on the ball. This was far before Rome legitimizing Christianity and saying it was inspired by Greek philosophy says a lot about your profound ignorance.

I didn't say that these religious figures were the only people to speak truth of the human condition, but they certainly played a major part, and saying that they didn't contribute any to society is erroneous as much as it is childish.

You can't get even get your own facts straight.

Buddha lived 500 bc to 400 bc. The Torah was written in 600 bc. Aristotle was born in 300~bc.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
People arguing that Jesus is not a real person while a great majority of people who studied him for a living, historians and the like, are in consensus that he did in fact exist puzzled me.

Like, why? Is it because it is offensive to your no-religion! rules of life to acknowledge his existence, even if it's only purely academical?

So weird and petty.
Essentially that is what's going on yes. It seems to be a weird understanding of secularism that comes out of the "New Atheism".
Um. No. As I (and others) have pointed out, Jesus' historical existence IS disputed. He's likely to have existed, yes, but the evidence is actually not that strong.

No serious historian doubts Jesus' existence.
Wrong.
There's more evidence Jesus existed than many famous people say were real with no hesitation.
Such as?

Many arguments made against the existence of Jesus, such as the fact that no one wrote about him until after his death is ludicrous as this was common during the antiquity.
It'd indeed be ludicrous if anyone made the claim that he didn't exist... but that's not what people are saying. Because you can't prove a negative. Rather, it just means than his existence is debatable.

Heck, writings on Jesus were made within the very century he died and even catalogued by Jewish and Roman historian sources, who had absolutely zero reason to make his existence known if he weren't to have exist given that Christian's during this period were seen as a black sheep and crazy religion between both camps. Yet they still recorded Jesus in their history books anyways as having been executed by Pontius Pilate.
Or they repeated hearsay and rumour.

(But we all know such things never happen... right?)

Einstein was a deist who used science to help explain the divine.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
Uh, no. That quote is out of context. Einstein was agnostic and described religion as "childish". In any case it doesn't matter, because what Einstein thought about religion or god is irrelevant. His contributions to science have nothing to do with religion and religious people claiming him as some sort of "ally" are deluding themselves, not to mention making an appeal to authority fallacy.

Your adherence to science is anti-intellectual
LOL what

Edit:

I didn't say that these religious figures were the only people to speak truth of the human condition, but they certainly played a major part, and saying that they didn't contribute any to society is erroneous as much as it is childish.
Oh they contributed all right. They contributed toxic superstitions that have held back humankind for centuries or more. Alas.
 
Because scientists like Einstein will do more for our understanding of reality and the universe than religious figures like Jesus, Moses, or Muhammad will ever do.

"In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god's blessing. But because, I am englightened by my intelligence."
 

Abelard

Member
Some of you guys need to read what actual historians and researchers say, and not merely the romanticized wafflings of fence sitters who don't want to stir up shit. Dr. Richard Carrier is a name you should be getting familiar with.

Tacitus and Josephus were not contemporaries of this alleged Jesus, and were writing about hearsay. There is not one single account from a proven contemporary that has confirmed a man attributed to the Jesus myth even existed.

Is it possible a man was martyred to give way to the formation of the myth? Hell, I would wager it isn't just possible, it's probable. But stop with the "was a real man, divine nature questionable" malarkey.

You want real famous? Look how many people think Cesare Borgia is literally what this figure even remotely looked like, when that doesn't even jive with the damned scripture. I'd say you could safely put him there with Mohammed or Julius Caesar, even if plebes are mistaking him for someone else. Though, that was kind of the point all along, wasn't it?

If you don`t believe Tacitus and Josephus are valid sources, then we need to say that Aristotle and Socrates did not exist because, like Jesus' story, we are left with written accounts that have been repeatedly copied through various generations
 

YoungFa

Member
Buddha i guess. Given how the world population is distributed across the globe, I assume he must be the most known.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
"In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god's blessing. But because, I am englightened by my intelligence."
What does a five year old reddit post have to do with any of this? Do you think yourself clever with your shitposting?

Edit:

If you don`t believe Tacitus and Josephus are valid sources, then we need to say that Aristotle and Socrates did not exist because, like Jesus' story, we are left with written accounts that have been repeatedly copied through various generations
Bad comparison. We have contemporary sources for both.
 
Claim: "Because scientists like Einstein will do more for our understanding of reality and the universe than religious figures like Jesus, Moses, or Muhammad will ever do."

Reality: The Buddhist and the Neuroscientist

An encounter with His Holiness the Dalai Lama and the scientific study of meditation

The poverty of scientific naturalism as a philosophy exposed for all to see. Such utter cringy, whingey, one-dimensional vapidity.

It's not wrong that you value science. It's just wrong that you value science above all else.
 

Slacker

Member
The answer is Jesus. Most powerful person ever too. He even has the power to make this thread way longer than it would have been otherwise. :)
 
If you don`t believe Tacitus and Josephus are valid sources, then we need to say that Aristotle and Socrates did not exist because, like Jesus' story, we are left with written accounts that have been repeatedly copied through various generations

Sure. When people start implying that the very nature of reality is dependent on Socrates' existence, get back to me.

There's a huge difference between doubting the existence of and asserting the nonexistence of a thing.

Fuck, like why do I have to spend every other day telling people that just because I don't believe in a god does not mean I believe there is no god?

Does articulation not even matter anymore?
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Claim: "In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god's blessing. But because, I am englightened by my intelligence."

Reality: The Buddhist and the Neuroscientist

An encounter with His Holiness the Dalai Lama and the scientific study of meditation

The poverty of scientific naturalism as a philosophy exposed for all to see. Such utter cringy, whingey, one-dimensional vapidity.

It's not wrong that you value science. It's just wrong that you value science above all else.
Well, the important part is how you've managed to feel superior about it all.

"Cringy, whingey", lol, do you even listen to yourself? Your posts are among the most embarrassing in this thread.
 

Chuckie

Member
If you don`t believe Tacitus and Josephus are valid sources, then we need to say that Aristotle and Socrates did not exist because, like Jesus' story, we are left with written accounts that have been repeatedly copied through various generations

Works of Aristotle have been saved, Socrates had been written about by contemporaries so I am not sure that comparison is a good one.
 

WiseguyMVP

Member
You're all wrong. :)

Sadly... It's Donald Trump.

The world is more interconnected than ever and the world population is the the largest it's ever been. Plus, no one tweets more BS than the Trumpster.

Lol.

If you're asking whom was most famous throughout our history? Good luck answering that one.
 
It's not wrong that you value science. It's just wrong that you value science above all else.

When it comes to discerning the nature of reality, there is no better method for determining fact and making accurate models than science. Valuing science above all else only indicates that one cares about what can be shown to be true. In that, I'd say there is not a damned thing wrong with valuing science above all else.

Unless you have a better investigative methodology that outperforms scientific inquiry...
 

Extollere

Sucks at poetry
That moment when you realize that Donald Trump is probably the most famous person in the world at this moment in time.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Oh I'm an idiot, that much is clear.
image.php


:)
 
When it comes to discerning the nature of reality, there is no better method for determining fact and making accurate models than science. Valuing science above all else only indicates that one cares about what can be shown to be true. In that, I'd say there is not a damned thing wrong with valuing science above all else.

Unless you have a better investigative methodology that outperforms scientific inquiry...

I'm not devaluing science. I highly value it. I am devaluing the idea that science is all we need to explore or explain the world. My links shows that science is gleaming into and trying to understand the benefits and methodology of practices that are over 2,000 years old. The original claim is that such practices aren't needed, because after all, we have science to explain our world. But even actual scientists disagree with him. This adherence to scientific thought seems intelligent at first glance, but comes across as teenage rebellion to many people, including scientists. The claims he made do not exist within our reality.

If it were true that science were all we needed to understand the world then that wouldn't happen.

There's so much science can't answer and limiting this world to as just observed by science is boring, just like Einstein said. Just recently scientists have discovered that our lungs produce our blood, and yet here you are trying to rely on science to explain our existence and consciousness. And yet here's scientists studying religious figures to tap into what they've experienced and explain it with the very scientific method you so cherish.

What's most funny is that arguments in favor of naturalism often are done with discoveries made by theists. The irony is too good.
 
Sure. When people start implying that the very nature of reality is dependent on Socrates' existence, get back to me.

There's a huge difference between doubting the existence of and asserting the nonexistence of a thing.

Fuck, like why do I have to spend every other day telling people that just because I don't believe in a god does not mean I believe there is no god?

Does articulation not even matter anymore?

So then, what was the point of your posts here exactly?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Jesus existing as a man is all that need be to qualify for the topic of this thread. So if his existence is probable, which you've said you acknowledge, then he's the most famous person in human history.

The rest of your entire spiel is splitting hairs for the sake of splitting hairs, at best.
 
I'm not devaluing science. I highly value it. I am devaluing the idea that science is all we need to explore or explain the world. My links shows that science is gleaming into and trying to understand the benefits and methodology of practices that are over 2,000 years old. The original claim is that such practices aren't needed, because after all, we have science to explain our world. But even actual scientists disagree with him. This adherence to scientific thought seems intelligent at first glance, but comes across as teenage rebellion to many people, including scientists. The claims he made do not exist within our reality.

If it were true that science were all we needed to understand the world then that wouldn't happen.

There's so much science can't answer and limiting this world to as just observed by science is boring, just like Einstein said. Just recently scientists have discovered that our lungs produce our blood, and yet here you are trying to rely on science to explain our existence and consciousness. And yet here's scientists studying religious figures to tap into what they've experienced and explain it with the very scientific method you so cherish.

What's most funny is that arguments in favor of naturalism often are done with discoveries made by theists. The irony is too good.

Horsepucky.

Humor me: Do you care if what you believe is true or not?
 
So then, what was the point of your posts here exactly?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Jesus existing as a man is all that need be to qualify for the topic of this thread. So if his existence is probable, which you've said you acknowledge, then he's the most famous person in human history.

The rest of your entire spiel is splitting hairs for the sake of splitting hairs, at best.

I'm saying that there's a huge difference between implying that marginally verifiable figures whose fame is less pertinent are not a good analogy for a thoroughly unverifiable figure whose fame is contingent for purposes of the topic.
 
Jesus. He was almost certainly a real person and basically everyone knows of him. Whether you agree/believe some of the things written about him well your mileage may vary.
 

Nerokis

Member
Fucking THANK YOU.

Anyone who mentions Josephus as "evidence" - the mention on Jesus being a centuries-later addition acknowledged even by biblical scholars to be a forgery - instantly loses all credibility in this argument.

Nah. Anyone who dismisses Tactitus and Josephus because they weren't contemporary sources isn't really engaging in history, and anyone who overemphasizes someone like Richard Carrier isn't really engaging with the consensus of historians.

Also, "the mention of Jesus"? There was more than one in Josephus alone, and no, most Biblical scholars don't dismiss these as forgeries.
 
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