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Mumei · May 11, 2012

iamblades said:
We are discussing the types of anecdotes that were in the article, we are not talking broadly about the problem of rape as a whole.

Also where are your statistics taken from? Are they all accusations, all charges filed, convictions, or estimated including unreported rapes? Because depending on where they are from there could be all kinds of biases (not the political type, the mathematical type) in them.

http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape-sexual-violence/campus/know-attacker.htm

About 85 to 90 percent of sexual assaults reported by college women are perpetrated by someone known to the victim; about half occur on a date. The most common locations are the man’s or woman’s home in the context of a party or a date. The perpetrators may range from classmates to neighbors.

Half of all student victims do not define the incident as “rape.” This is especially true when no weapon was used, there is no obvious physical injury, and alcohol was involved — factors commonly associated with campus acquaintance rape. This is one reason rape and other sexual assaults on campus are not well reported.

Fewer than 5 percent of completed and attempted rapes of college students are reported to campus administrators or law enforcement, according to one study. Failure to recognize and report the crime to law enforcement officials may contribute to underestimating the extent of the problem and may affect whether victims seek medical care. However, those who report in other contexts, such as through a confidential reporting system, are more likely to seek medical or counseling services.

(I misremembered the 85 - 90% as 80%)

Devolution · May 11, 2012

CrushDance said:
Devo. I'm not discussing this with you anymore. I did not say women are to blame for being raped, I did not say the way a woman dresses or acts is reason to rape her. I did not say that women must must than restrict themselves. All I said was that I will tell my children to watch out for various types of threats and do their best to avoid them. I won't blame them, I don't blame anyone but the person who CHOOSES to harm another. But I also acknowledge that there are people who have no qualms doing so. I don't have an solution for rape, if I did; I'd have a peace prize. All I have is my own experiences and experiences of people I know to mold my behaviour and attitude towards the hyper charged sexual culture that we have.

I'm not saying you're blaming us, I'm saying telling us to do X is punishing us. This is a fact.

elcapitan · May 11, 2012

Mumei said:
Hey, someone who gets it.

Rape prevention is a myth. You don't even meaningfully lower your chances of being raped by doing the things you guys are talking about. 80 percent of victims know their attacker. 57 percent of rapes occur on dates. Attackers are usually in a position of trust and occur on a second or third date.

So presumably you guys think that women should never go on dates (and certainly never a second or third) and should never be alone with any man (especially men they trust)?

Maybe we could require female chaperones, too.

Those are some telling statistics. I would imagine the trauma comes from having that initial trust completely betrayed.

While precautions aren't effect against the 80%, surely taking precautions has some value? By calling it a "myth," do you mean to say that there's no point in doing so?

We should certainly focus our efforts into changing the cultural attitudes around the subject (legislation, education, etc.), but on the interim, what can a woman (or anybody really) do to protect themselves other than take "precautions?"

Vermillion · May 11, 2012

I'm only going to ask one question - would you guys advocate your friend going out with a man you knew to be a rapist? Yes or no? And why?

Gaborn · May 11, 2012

Baconsammy said:
Are we blaming motorcyclists who are wearing a helmet when they get hit by a drunk driver and die? Should we tell them to forget the helmets, because instead we'll just teach everyone that drinking and driving is a bad thing and then hope that everyone listened? No need for that preventative measure of wearing the helmet and pads. The same fools that will accuse the cyclist of being an idiot for riding the motorcycle are the same ones that will still blame the rapists. Prevention serves a purpose. Not a myth. It's not a 100 percent cure-all, but it most definitely is not a myth.

What about blaming a random man in his 30s, wife, 3 kids. Doesn't drink much, but he's not a teetotaller. He's not really religious but he'll say a little something over the Christmas turkey because it makes his mother happy. He's good with his kids, doesn't spoil them but doesn't beat them either. He's a devoted family man, doesn't run around, doesn't smoke. And he couldn't stop the bank robber that killed him to make an example to the other hostages.

Baconsammy · May 11, 2012

Timedog said:
Okay, so what you're saying is that it's okay to put blame onto the victim up until some magical line is drawn where suddenly protecting yourself becomes too much of a burden, then it's suddenly not okay to put blame onto the victim. Please, could you elaborate on this "Baconsammy Line"? Please, I'd like to hear more about the arbitrary point at which you decide taking away women's freedoms is just going too far.

Yeah, as if we dont live in a society that doesn't take away your freedom already to protect people. Drinking and driving - illegal. Driving without a seatbelt - illegal. Texting while driving - illegal in many states. Riding a motorcycle without a helmet - illegal in most states. Prevention. It works, and at times infringes on freedoms. Educating women (and men) on how to avoid situations that can lead to rapes may alter some behavior, but it doesn't stop anyone from still going out and drinking. You look at that at take it to the stupidest degree, I don't.

Incendiary · May 11, 2012

no angel said:
That's....an interesting point of view.

I'm going to start driving around without a seatbelt on because wearing one implies that any accidents I have would be my fault.

This is completely nuts. A women can be taught preventative measures for rape and still be raped. She can go out with girlfriends, stay away from strangers, and end up walking home with a close friend who she's known for years...and still get raped.

If I'm wearing a seatbelt and get rearended, it's the guy's fault for rear ending me. If a girl takes preventative measures and still gets raped, it's the rapist's fault.

To take your analogy a step further: we should be teaching people NOT to drive recklessly and rear-end people, instead of saying wear a seatbelt and pray you don't get rear-ended by an idiot.

no angel · May 11, 2012

JokerOfSpades said:
I'm only going to ask one question - would you guys advocate your friend going out with a man you knew to be a rapist? Yes or no? And why?

No, because he might rape again.

To me it seems crazy that some here would be ok with it because 'hey, she can do what she wants, limits on what she can and can't do shouldn't be artificially placed on her because he's already raped a woman before'.

Edit

Post above , I know it was an extreme analogy. It's 11:50 here and I'm in bed. I feel that with matters such as this prevention and education should go hand in hand. The promotion of one does not exclude/minimise the importance of the other.

Gaborn · May 11, 2012

Baconsammy said:
Yeah, as if we dont live in a society that doesn't take away your freedom already to protect people. Drinking and driving - illegal. Driving without a seatbelt - illegal. Texting while driving - illegal in many states. Riding a motorcycle without a helmet - illegal in most states. Prevention. It works, and at times infringes on freedoms. Educating women (and men) on how to avoid situations that can lead to rapes may alter some behavior, but it doesn't stop anyone from still going out and drinking. You look at that at take it to the stupidest degree, I don't.

How about changing the way men view women as a way of addressing the problem? The onus shouldn't be on the women to avoid being raped, it should be on the men to control themselves.

Baconsammy · May 11, 2012

Gaborn said:
How about changing the way men view women as a way of addressing the problem? The onus shouldn't be on the women to avoid being raped, it should be on the men to control themselves.

Of course the onus is on prevention until this utopia you envision actually exists.

freenudemacusers · May 11, 2012

no angel said:
No, because he might rape again.

To me it seems crazy that some here would be ok with it because 'hey, she can do what she wants, limits on what she can and can't do shouldn't be artificially placed on her because he's already raped a woman before'.

Not sure if serious

Edit: sorry it was a very dumb analogy.

Devolution · May 11, 2012

Baconsammy said:
Of course the onus is on prevention until this utopia you envision actually exists.

Rape culture is refusing to acknowledge that the only thing that the victim of every rapist shares in common is bad fucking luck.

Rape culture is refusing to acknowledge that the only thing a person can do to avoid being raped is never be in the same room as a rapist.

Rape culture is avoiding talking about what an absurdly unreasonable expectation that is, since rapists don't announce themselves or wear signs or glow purple.

.

iamblades · May 11, 2012

Mumei said:
http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape-sexual-violence/campus/know-attacker.htm

About 85 to 90 percent of sexual assaults reported by college women are perpetrated by someone known to the victim; about half occur on a date. The most common locations are the man’s or woman’s home in the context of a party or a date. The perpetrators may range from classmates to neighbors.

Half of all student victims do not define the incident as “rape.” This is especially true when no weapon was used, there is no obvious physical injury, and alcohol was involved — factors commonly associated with campus acquaintance rape. This is one reason rape and other sexual assaults on campus are not well reported.

Fewer than 5 percent of completed and attempted rapes of college students are reported to campus administrators or law enforcement, according to one study. Failure to recognize and report the crime to law enforcement officials may contribute to underestimating the extent of the problem and may affect whether victims seek medical care. However, those who report in other contexts, such as through a confidential reporting system, are more likely to seek medical or counseling services.

(I misremembered the 85 - 90% as 80%)

Just looking through the study, their definition of 'known' is about the most liberal imaginable:

Most often, a boyfriend, ex-boyfriend, classmate, friend, acquaintance, or coworker sexually victimized the women.

Boyfriends and ex-boyfriends were responsible for less than a quarter of all completed rapes and only 14.5% of all attempted rapes. Interesting survey though, still looking through the data.

MWS Natural · May 11, 2012

Incendiary said:
To take your analogy a step further: we should be teaching people NOT to drive recklessly and rear-end people, instead of saying wear a seatbelt and pray you don't get rear-ended by an idiot.

Is there a reason you can't do both?

Vermillion · May 11, 2012

Too extreme?

Let's change it:

Would you advocate your friend going down a street at night where you know a rapist to live? Why or why not?

Or hell, would you advocate your friend (male or female) going into a bad neighborhood unless they truly had to?

apana · May 11, 2012

It's crazy how common sexual assaults and rapes are. So many people are just casually sadistic and fucked up.

Baconsammy · May 11, 2012

MWS Natural said:
Is there a reason you can't do both?

The reason to some people here is that if you tell the driver to wear the seatbelt, you're blaming him/her for whatever bad happens while wearing it.

Orayn · May 11, 2012

Baconsammy said:
The reason to some people here is that if you tell the driver to wear the seatbelt, you're blaming him/her for whatever bad happens while wearing it.

Bad analogy because rape is not a type of accident.

samus i am · May 11, 2012

Baconsammy said:
The reason to some people here is that if you tell the driver to wear the seatbelt, you're blaming him/her for whatever bad happens while wearing it.

Terrible analogy.

Edit: Beaten

Zoramon089 · May 11, 2012

Devolution said:
What's the point in telling me I shouldn't drink with men ever as something women should just start doing? What's the point in focusing the energy on limiting what women do in hopes rape will stop happening? Why are you punishing me?

You know you don't have so resort to insults whenever you disagree with someone. Exercising some level of control is something everyone does and yet you make it out to be some personal attack/imposition only on women. I'm not saying stop hanging out with males (drunk or sober). I'm not saying stop drinking. Asking either would be unreasonable.

However, the suggestion that a person not drink till they aren't aware of their surroundings or aren't able to refuse advances is perfectly reasonable. It's no different than asking someone to wear a seatbelt in a car. It's gender neutral as it's a good suggestion for people in general and it can potentially make a world of difference.

Of course this won't prevent all rapes. Maybe not even most of them but as this article seems to talk particularly about rapes in a heavy party environment talking about alcohol seems relevant

SuperBonk · May 11, 2012

It's amazing how angry we can get at each other when all of us are more or less on the same page.

We want to eliminate rape. What's the best way to do that?

Obviously the answer is to teach everyone how rape is absolutely not ok.

However, some people are arguing that there are people in this world who are inherently evil and will continue to rape no matter how many times they're told how wrong it is. For these situations, they want to encourage prevention techniques.

The problem is this: Do these prevention techniques actually work? There are statistics in this thread that show that common rape prevention techniques such traveling in packs with female friends at parties will not prevent the vast majority of rapes. Instead, it just imposes an arbitrary limitation on women's liberties, along with an added implication of victim blaming for when someone is raped where they didn't follow these commonly stated preventative measures.

However, I don't think anyone in this thread is guilty of actually blaming the victim. I think we all agree that rape is 100% the rapist's fault. Some people just genuinely believe that preventative measures will reduce the instances of rape.

iamblades · May 12, 2012

Devolution said:
Rape culture is refusing to acknowledge that the only thing that the victim of every rapist shares in common is bad fucking luck.

Rape culture is refusing to acknowledge that the only thing a person can do to avoid being raped is never be in the same room as a rapist.

Rape culture is avoiding talking about what an absurdly unreasonable expectation that is, since rapists don't announce themselves or wear signs or glow purple.

You still haven't told me what your answer is.

The legal system can't deal with the issue because it is impossible for the victim's word to reach the legal standard of proof in most cases without additional evidence.

Vermillion · May 12, 2012

SuperBonk said:
It's amazing how angry we can get at each other when all of us are more or less on the same page.

We want to eliminate rape. What's the best way to do that?

Obviously the answer is to teach everyone how rape is absolutely not ok.

However, some people are arguing that there are people in this world who are inherently evil and will continue to rape no matter how many times they're told how wrong it is. For these situations, they want to encourage prevention techniques.

The problem is this: Do these prevention techniques actually work? There are statistics in this thread that show that common rape prevention techniques such traveling in packs with female friends at parties will not prevent the vast majority of rapes. Instead, it just imposes an arbitrary limitation on women's liberties, along with an added implication of victim blaming for when someone is raped where they didn't follow these commonly stated preventative measures.

However, I don't think anyone in this thread is guilty of actually blaming the victim. I think we all agree that rape is 100% the rapist's fault. Some people just genuinely believe that preventative measures will reduce the instances of rape.

I take back everything I said and agree with this post in full.

ronito · May 12, 2012

This thread is really weird to read after the whole "is it ok to compliment women on their boobs?" thread

Baconsammy · May 12, 2012

samus i am said:
Terrible analogy.

Completely apt given the "prevention is a myth" BS being spouted by some.

In cities where crime prevention was both taught and funded, crime rates dropped dramatically. And amazingly not on the list of crime-prevention methods circulated to homeowners and business owners was "hide away in your house forever away from the rest of society". Simple, yet effective methods of prevention can prevent crime, and also at the same time may impinge on how you live your daily life. A fair trade most would say.

Timedog · May 12, 2012

Baconsammy said:
Yeah, as if we dont live in a society that doesn't take away your freedom already to protect people. Drinking and driving - illegal. Driving without a seatbelt - illegal. Texting while driving - illegal in many states. Riding a motorcycle without a helmet - illegal in most states. Prevention. It works, and at times infringes on freedoms. Educating women (and men) on how to avoid situations that can lead to rapes may alter some behavior, but it doesn't stop anyone from still going out and drinking. You look at that at take it to the stupidest degree, I don't.

1. Drinking and texting while driving are terrible, terrible, terrible analogies. I hope I don't need to explain why. I'm facepalming so fucking hard right now.

2. Seatbelt and helmet laws don't actually impinge on any of your driving rights, who you have in the car with you, where you can go, etc. This analogy might make sense if we were talking about a magic rape protection guantlet that gave +15 Escape points.

3. You failed to answer my question. But way to go with the ridiculous dodges.

Incendiary · May 12, 2012

MWS Natural said:
Is there a reason you can't do both?

Doing both is fine, but saying the latter is the "best" way or saying wearing a seatbelt helps prevent car accidents is wrong. To be clear: girls and guys can do everything in their power to prevent rape and be prepared, but it's not going to stop a rapist.

Case in point: I had a friend who went out for drinks with some of her friends...not alone, with a group. She went to a local bar, one she'd frequented before. At the bar, she met a guy who she knew from class. He offered to buy her a drink....while she was with her friends. She said yes. After the drink, she felt weird. He coerced her away from her friends, kept plying her and asking her if she wanted to come home with her. She managed to say no and get back to her friends. One of her friends took her home and she blacked out for the rest of the night.

The guy had roofied her EVEN THOUGH she had taken preventative measures. It was not HER fault some douchebag SHE KNEW roofied her drink and wanted to take advantage of her. It was the douchebag's fault.

Yes, teaching preventative measures is fine, but the focus should be on stopping rapists, not just telling potential victims how not to be raped.

Baconsammy · May 12, 2012

Timedog said:
1. Drinking and texting while driving are terrible, terrible, terrible analogies. I hope I don't need to explain why. I'm facepalming so fucking hard right now.

2. Seatbelt and helmet laws don't actually impinge on any of your driving rights, who you have in the car with you, where you can go, etc. This analogy might make sense if we were talking about a magic rape protection guantlet that gave +15 Escape points.

3. You failed to answer my question. But way to go with the ridiculous dodges.

Not a single dodge to be found. But then again, I'm not the one that took "simple preventative measures" to the incredibly ignorant degree of "hide in your house away from all of society".

Incendiary said:
Doing both is fine, but saying the latter is the "best" way or saying wearing a seatbelt helps prevent car accidents is wrong. To be clear: girls and guys can do everything in their power to prevent rape and be prepared, but it's not going to stop a rapist.

But it will lower the number of rapes. And that's what prevention is for. It's not a bloody myth.

Trent Strong · May 12, 2012

Orayn said:
Bad analogy because rape is not a type of accident.

Ok, say there was a gang of psychos in a certain city who were going around and deliberately ramming peole with their cars. Do you think warning someone about this gang and advising them to wear a seatbelt would be "blaming the victim", or that this advice would somehow be a form of punishment to the advisee?

iamblades · May 12, 2012

SuperBonk said:
It's amazing how angry we can get at each other when all of us are more or less on the same page.

We want to eliminate rape. What's the best way to do that?

Obviously the answer is to teach everyone how rape is absolutely not ok.

However, some people are arguing that there are people in this world who are inherently evil and will continue to rape no matter how many times they're told how wrong it is. For these situations, they want to encourage prevention techniques.

The problem is this: Do these prevention techniques actually work? There are statistics in this thread that show that common rape prevention techniques such traveling in packs with female friends at parties will not prevent the vast majority of rapes. Instead, it just imposes an arbitrary limitation on women's liberties, along with an added implication of victim blaming for when someone is raped where they didn't follow these commonly stated preventative measures.

However, I don't think anyone in this thread is guilty of actually blaming the victim. I think we all agree that rape is 100% the rapist's fault. Some people just genuinely believe that preventative measures will reduce the instances of rape.

Those statistics in this thread do not exactly prove that prevention is useless. In fact the very same study says that certain factors increase risk:

Multivariate logit models for each type of sexual victimization measured
were estimated to predict the likelihood of having been victimized. Consistent
across the models, it was found that four main factors consistently increased
the risk of sexual victimization: (1) frequently drinking enough to get drunk,
(2) being unmarried, (3) having been a victim of a sexual assault before the
start of the current school year, and (4) living on campus (for on-campus
victimization only).

Unfortunately I can't find the raw data to see how significant the risk factors are.

In the absence of a utopia where no one rapes, this is the best we can do.

Vermillion · May 12, 2012

To be fair though, I've done some mental gymnastics with this question. To take it to it's extreme, everyone ever can always be blamed for anything that happens to them. After all, if we wear a suit of armor all the time, we could prevent harm to ourselves. But it would not make life any more comfortable.

And of course, we should not have to. Learning self-defense would also be helpful, but should we all have to?

Why do girls rarely walk alone at night, though? Why do they always walk with someone else? Why do girls go together to parties to make sure they don't do anything stupid (I know one in particular who was explaining why girls who are virgins are surrounded by friends who cockblock for them)?

We all agree that certain degrees of prevention are wise, but not to the point where it impedes our comfort. Comfort is determined by societal influences, however. If wearing a suit of armor all the time was what we did, it would be just fine - but we don't, and it doesn't fit in in modern society.

In conclusion, I would advocate that how a woman dresses remains up to her, and taking that away would impede comfort. However, some other preventative measures are only wise as they are not against societal comfort - such as making sure not to walk alone at night, and keeping friends around you if you want to get drunk.

Eh.

Baconsammy · May 12, 2012

SuperBonk said:
The problem is this: Do these prevention techniques actually work? There are statistics in this thread that show that common rape prevention techniques such traveling in packs with female friends at parties will not prevent the vast majority of rapes. Instead, it just imposes an arbitrary limitation on women's liberties, along with an added implication of victim blaming for when someone is raped where they didn't follow these commonly stated preventative measures.

There hasn't been one single statistic listed in this thread that relates to the percentage of rapes that taking precautions has affected.

apana · May 12, 2012

Baconsammy said:
The reason to some people here is that if you tell the driver to wear the seatbelt, you're blaming him/her for whatever bad happens while wearing it.

These analogies are probably hurting your argument more than helping it. I think people should be aware of the predatory behaviors of certain men and places or situations where they may be more vulnerable, but I don't think that knowledge should carry with it an obligation or responsiblity on the part of the victim. The emphasis should be placed on actually preventing young men from thinking this is acceptable and giving them harsh punishment when it does happen.

Timedog · May 12, 2012

Baconsammy said:
Not a single dodge to be found. But then again, I'm not the one that took "simple preventative measures" to the incredibly ignorant degree of "hide in your house away from all of society".

Cool, so you've failed to answer my question or address the criticisms(from me or others) of your shitty analogies. I have no idea why you're even responding, other than to continually show how upset you are that I brought up the fact that hiding women away would be the best defense. Okay, I get it, you didn't like that I posted that. Feel free to criticize it or actually make some sort of point other than "wahhhhhhhhhhh Timedog said stuff I didn't like!".

elcapitan · May 12, 2012

Nobody's trying to blame the victim, it's just that people refuse to believe that bad things happen to good people for no reason. We don't want to believe that the universe is so random that horrible stuff like this happens all the time. There has to be an explanation, and there has to be a way to avoid it. Everybody who advocates for preventative measures only does so to impose some sort of control over what is really an unpredictable event.

Incendiary · May 12, 2012

Baconsammy said:
But it will lower the number of rapes. And that's what prevention is for. It's not a bloody myth.

Basically, what he said:

SuperBonk said:
The problem is this: Do these prevention techniques actually work? There are statistics in this thread that show that common rape prevention techniques such traveling in packs with female friends at parties will not prevent the vast majority of rapes. Instead, it just imposes an arbitrary limitation on women's liberties, along with an added implication of victim blaming for when someone is raped where they didn't follow these commonly stated preventative measures.

It's not that prevention is a problem or a "myth." It's that when a girl doesn't use these preventive measures people are more apt to say "oh, well you didn't do X so who's to blame now?"

Baconsammy · May 12, 2012

apana said:
These analogies are probably hurting your argument more than helping it. I think people should be aware of the predatory behaviors of certain men and places or situations where they may be more vulnerable, but I don't think that knowledge should carry with it an obligation or responsiblity on the part of the victim. The emphasis should be placed on actually preventing young men from thinking this is acceptable and giving them harsh punishment when it does happen.

The analogies are as dumb as the statement that "prevention is a myth". Prevention works. It prevents rapes. It prevents crimes. It prevents deaths in car crashes. It prevents deaths to our soldiers in war. The notion that prevention is a myth is just so incredibly inept to me as to almost be laughable, if it weren't so scary. Only fools blame the victims. But we're now at the point in the thread where it's just one big circle. I'm out. Peace.

iamblades · May 12, 2012

Incendiary said:
Basically, what he said:

It's not that prevention is a problem or a "myth." It's that when a girl doesn't use these preventive measures people are more apt to say "oh, well you didn't do X so who's to blame now?"

Well if someone says that, everyone should certainly call that person a douchebag of epic proportions. That is irrelevant to the question of how to reduce the number of rapes in a practical way.

Timedog · May 12, 2012

elcapitan said:
Nobody's trying to blame the victim, it's just that people refuse to believe that bad things happen to good people for no reason. We don't want to believe that the universe is so random that horrible stuff like this happens all the time. There has to be an explanation, and there has to be a way to avoid it. Everybody who advocates for preventative measures only does so to impose some sort of control over what is really an unpredictable event.

Are you saying that all these guys are just born rapists?

edit: Awwww, Baconsammy can't take being criticized. Later gator.

apana · May 12, 2012

elcapitan said:
Nobody's trying to blame the victim, it's just that people refuse to believe that bad things happen to good people for no reason. We don't want to believe that the universe is so random that horrible stuff like this happens all the time. There has to be an explanation, and there has to be a way to avoid it. Everybody who advocates for preventative measures only does so to impose some sort of control over what is really an unpredictable event.

I sort of agree with what you are saying but you are simplifying it quite a bit.

elcapitan · May 12, 2012

Timedog said:
Are you saying that all these guys are just born rapists?

I'm speaking as to why people (those of us in this topic) are advocating for preventative measures against rape.

apana said:
I sort of agree with what you are saying but you are simplifying it quite a bit.

I'm just making a psychological evaluation. People read bad news and try to rationalize it by asserting authority over it.

"This can't happen to me because I'll make sure it doesn't."

It's not specific to this issue.

I'm more interested in imablades' analysis of the stats. We need better data to get a more informed idea of whether or not preventative measures actually reduce the number of rapes.

Trent Strong · May 12, 2012

Incendiary said:
Basically, what he said:

It's not that prevention is a problem or a "myth." It's that when a girl doesn't use these preventive measures people are more apt to say "oh, well you didn't do X so who's to blame now?"

Except no one says that. Advising someone to be carefull or take preventative measures does not equal blaming the victim.

SuperBonk · May 12, 2012

Baconsammy said:
There hasn't been one single statistic listed in this thread that relates to the percentage of rapes that taking precautions has affected.

While you're technically correct, I was referring to the statistic that Mumei posted about how 85-90% of rapes are committed by someone the victim knew or was on a date with (50%). From that we can infer the most commonly stated rape prevention measures would not be very successful.

Regardless, I know what you're trying to say. It's just that for the times when a girl is raped without using preventative measures (whether they would have helped or not), it gives an avenue for some people to blame the victim, which hurts the ultimate goal of trying to eliminate rape.

Devolution · May 12, 2012

Men rape women a lot guys. Okay let's limit what women can or should do to x y and z. And never discuss why men rape.

Sound good? Yeah okay.

Incendiary · May 12, 2012

iamblades said:
Well if someone says that, everyone should certainly call that person a douchebag of epic proportions. That is irrelevant to the question of how to reduce the number of rapes in a practical way.

The best way to reduce rapes is to teach men and women that raping is wrong. That no means no, even when you're drunk. That when you're drunk, you should control your base urges, and if you can't to not get that drunk in the first place. That men don't have a right to sex, women can wear whatever they want, and can change their mind depending on how they feel without consequences.

Yes, it's also practical to tell girls to travel in groups and don't do X and do Y and that will make you safer....but isn't it more practical to go straight at the potential rapists instead of the potential victims? When I go to a party, I don't worry about going alone or with friends. Why should women have to do the same? If a woman wants to go to a party by herself, she should be able to and not worry that she has a higher chance of being raped because of it.

Is it more practical to fireproof your entire house, or be taught that playing with matches could burn your house down and to not do it? Maybe I should stop using analogies.

ronito · May 12, 2012

Yesterday: Men can't compliment women on their boobs! Do you know how sexually vulernable it makes women feel?! What about schrodinger's rapist?! Men should know better than to be so overtly sexual!

Today: Why are you limiting what women can do you patriarchal assholes?!

iamblades · May 12, 2012

Devolution said:
Men rape women a lot guys. Okay let's limit what women can or should do to x y and z. And never discuss why men rape.

Sound good? Yeah okay.

So why do men rape, and how do we solve it?

Not being patronizing, genuinely curious..

SuperBonk · May 12, 2012

iamblades said:
In the absence of a utopia where no one rapes, this is the best we can do.

Thanks for that, I admit I didn't read the full study.

But is that really the best we can do? What if we put those resources into teaching men about how wrong rape is? Do you think that will have an even greater impact on decreasing the instances of rape? I know the society we live in is not utopia, but I certainly want to take the steps to make it one.

Timedog · May 12, 2012

elcapitan said:
I'm speaking as to why people (those of us in this topic) are advocating for preventative measures against rape.

You are talking about it as if it is unavoidable unless the victim does something, rather than trying to fix the root of the problem (the culture the breeds predators).

Gaborn · May 12, 2012

ronito said:
Yesterday: Men can't compliment women on their boobs! Do you know how sexually vulernable it makes women feel?! What about schrodinger's rapist?! Men should know better than to be so overtly sexual!

Today: Why are you limiting what women can do you patriarchal assholes?!

There is a difference between restricting someone from doing something (saying something in this case) that affects someone else and preventing someone from doing something because the BEHAVIOR of someone else would be inappropriate if you did what you have every right to do.

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