Said it better than I ever could. Preach, breh. Fucking preach.
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ABC/Wash Post Poll: Trump, GOP, AND Democrats all suck
- Thread starter Schattenjäger
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Souldriver
Member
As someone who is still completely convinced that Clinton would have been a fantastic president based on policy and methods, I'm starting to agree with the people who say Bernie should have been elected. It's obvious that Americans are all 'fuck it, I want something different'. In a sense Trump is something different, but it really is the worst kind of different imaginable.
I still feel the whole 'throwing a bomb in the living room to decorate the walls' approach people have about politics is misguided, but it is what it is. People in the western world want change. Bernie would have been a better person for that that Trump or Clinton.
I still feel the whole 'throwing a bomb in the living room to decorate the walls' approach people have about politics is misguided, but it is what it is. People in the western world want change. Bernie would have been a better person for that that Trump or Clinton.
benjipwns
Banned
But 40+% of women are anti-abortion...
Here's another important voice in the party called progressive by leadership:
http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/pro-life-democrats-pelosi-says-of-course-927707715667 said:
Yoshimitsu126
Member
I also feel like all those studies about how minorities will make up over 50% of US population in the future also shook the privileged white even though whites still end up being the majority in the future. But of course they probably see all minorities as the same and are trying to cling on to their privilege as long as possible.
Shy Fingers
Banned
....what?
You talk about not wanting to throw a bomb on US politics, and justify it by saying we should have elected Bernie?!
What point are you trying to make here? Because I'm pretty sure Bernie ran on against the status quo.
Muppet of a Man
Member
I'm personally in favor of making parties and party affiliation illegal. Everyone will be responsible for paying attention to proposed policies, and it would make it more difficult for existing politicians to band together consistently, putting an end to party platforms which really just fuck over the integrity and effectiveness of each individual policy that gets implemented due to "compromises" having to due with the platform as a whole. Plus, party dynamics enable the development of political machines, consolidation of wealth and power on the political front in general, and enable parties to play proxies for the political will of giant companies or even whole industries (as we are witnessing in today's world, day in and day out).
benjipwns
Banned
Unfortunately, it's gonna be hard to get that Amendment to the Constitution past the multi-trillion dollar political corporations at the heart of our system.
As an aside, I don't think anyone actually has followed a party platform in like a century and a half. I was kinda glad when the Ron Paul people went "what? no who gives a shit lol" when offered minor alterations to the platform as a concession to drop their meaningless protest votes for their candidate.
It won't help though. Because even without a republican platform, you'll still have people going 1:1 with the same ideals and campaign on the same bullshit. We're better off mandating the party system to be split into 4, this preventing no single one to hold the majority of power.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
the actual key to reforming the US government into something functional would be to abolish the Senate and Presidency and make the House elected by proportional representation, which means instituting parties as an official part of the process.
but unfortunately our constitution is so hard to amend and our major political parties have erected barriers to third party success beyond even Duveger's Law so it will never happen and we're stuck with a terrible government forever
until we pass a law mandating that we teach children about why it's important to enact all of my constitutional reforms
but unfortunately our constitution is so hard to amend and our major political parties have erected barriers to third party success beyond even Duveger's Law so it will never happen and we're stuck with a terrible government forever
until we pass a law mandating that we teach children about why it's important to enact all of my constitutional reforms
benjipwns
Banned
well hold on lets not get too carried away here
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
benji if the state stopped existing I'd run out of new material to read about it
Souldriver
Member
I'm saying I don't agree with the reactionary 'change it all or fuck everything' attitude from the voters. But if that's what it takes for them to lose the cynical negative attitude they have about politics, then we should have elected Bernie. At least then 'something different' would have gotten a chance, and it would not have been in the form of a criminal fascist nationalist sack of Orange.
Lord Frieza
Member
I know people are wanting and dreaming of that instant Trump drop, but it's still just been over 3 months. It's going to take some real time before we see his voters really start to drop off. And in the current environment, it'll probably never drop off nearly as much as we want. I believe we'll see it happen eventually, but I'm going to be realistic about it. The fact that his approval ratings are the lowest in recorded history at this point, and dissatisfaction with his governing party as well is good. I know Dems have low approval, too, but both parties are generally always low anyway.
Everybody thinks there is a problem but they can't agree on what the problem or the solution to the problem is.
Everyone hates congress but everyone also thinks their rep is "one of the good ones".
People are more likely to ascribe negative characteristics to groups than individuals.
Everyone hates congress but everyone also thinks their rep is "one of the good ones".
People are more likely to ascribe negative characteristics to groups than individuals.
benjipwns
Banned
I do not, how dare you post this vicious libel, I will be contacting my attorneys.
Lord Frieza
Member
Uh, excuse me? Pretty much every Rep from my State is a piece of shit, and I didn't vote for any of them. You might want to rethink this.
I think the point is that approval of Congress is in single digits but Congressional candidates have a 90%+ reelection rate.
Lord Frieza
Member
I'm sure that's probably what he meant, but it sure as shit doesn't mean that everyone thinks their rep is the best even if they get re-elected. I'd rather be dead and buried than ever think that soulless cunt Diane Black is the best of anything
That is one of the most ridiculous attitudes saying you're not for automation is saying you disliked the industrial revolution. It's not gaf . Sure step aside let the world automate and well see where that leaves you ... The key is managing automation and equality
May not be true for you but in general this is true of congress . Officials get elected on local concerns but are often at odds with consensus . It's a reality of different political viewpoints etc .
Mercury Fred
Banned
Ding ding ding!
Carpe Libertatem
Member
That's fine. Joe Manchin is in the party and very much anti-choice. We just don't call him progressive because, well, he's not.
(also obviously 40% of Democratic women are not anti-choice)
Everything they have done since November has been about chasing after the white working class. This is why Bernie is on a "unity tour," even though he refuses to even call himself a Democrat. They've continually put him in prominent leadership roles despite him continuing to put his foot in his mouth.
You really have no grasp of American politics if you think the demographic they're chasing ("class politics," lol) has any interest in women's reproductive rights, LGBT rights, and racial minority rights. But you thought we could win the South by promoting socialist policies, so meh. Must be nice to live in your world.
King Tubby
Member
Yes, it's all Bernie's fault and his obviously privileged white supporters. They're to blame!
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
You don't have to think your representative is good to re-elect them, though - you just have to think they're better than the alternative, which they can be whilst also being bad if the alternative is worse. There's a consistently strong relationship between proportional electoral systems and political satisfaction - see Lijphart (1999), Klingeman (1997) among others - because people can express genuine preferences instead of making lesser-of-two-evils calculations. It's not even a minor difference - Lijphart found that controlling for other differences, open list and top-up democracies had +17% approval ratings for political institutions like legislatures over FPTP democracies.
Still not doing demonizing and generalizing Bernie voters eh? The fact that you can write this with a straight face is sort of Kellyanne-Conway-ish.
Yes, the common thread is privileged white people. But attributing that demo to Bernie voters specifically is farcical. The reality is that this problem has been around long before Bernie sanders emerged, and there are likely far, far more privileged white people who are disaffected to problems in the minority communities that voted for Clinton than voted for Sanders. Does that mean that "Hillary-voters" are the problem? No. It means part of the Democratic coalition is the problem. And clearly Bernie in no way created that nor had a disproportionate share of it. You trying to project that onto Sanders voters is ironic, given it points to you "shitting on [somebody] without paying any attention to context."
JordanN
Banned
Political parties are just terrible. There are many issues in life that can't just be broken down to left or right.
Climate change for example, is fact. Any party who makes it policy to even deny it shouldn't even be allowed on the ballot (looking at you GOP).
But I kinda dislike Democrats too. Where's the party that will push for peace and non-intervention? Yet Obama was bombing up all these countries in the Middle East.
America's political system needs a huge re-haul and I would say the rest of the world too. Make politics to be about carefully weighted facts and surviving the future. Ditch the parties and have independents represent the population instead.
Climate change for example, is fact. Any party who makes it policy to even deny it shouldn't even be allowed on the ballot (looking at you GOP).
But I kinda dislike Democrats too. Where's the party that will push for peace and non-intervention? Yet Obama was bombing up all these countries in the Middle East.
America's political system needs a huge re-haul and I would say the rest of the world too. Make politics to be about carefully weighted facts and surviving the future. Ditch the parties and have independents represent the population instead.
The media also needs to grow a set. We heard more about emails than anything else. They latched onto those news bits and drilled it harder than anyone else. They essentially chicken littled everyone into becoming apathetic.
The GOP need to be absolutely gutted by the media, yet they are all grasping for the largest market share of viewership. The liberal media simply doesnt exist and is basically a conservative gateway to writing off all news. Fox News calls itself 'fair and balanced', and in the tv guide is labeled America's news channel. They give no fucks and are dominating as a result.
Almost everyone i know who "voted third party" or didnt vote was in the never Hillary camp. They gave no shit about what she actually proposed for the rust belt or foreign policy. They were locked in the second benghazi became a thing. Those new to politics took the bait when the emails hit and the rest is history.
The Democrats need to be absolutely cut throat in their talking points, not just pointing and saying "arent they ridiculous?" Assuming everyone will make the right choice. And they need to flood the media in the same way the GOP does.
There is no mtv or daily show equivalent, and they will continue to be fucked as a result.
The GOP need to be absolutely gutted by the media, yet they are all grasping for the largest market share of viewership. The liberal media simply doesnt exist and is basically a conservative gateway to writing off all news. Fox News calls itself 'fair and balanced', and in the tv guide is labeled America's news channel. They give no fucks and are dominating as a result.
Almost everyone i know who "voted third party" or didnt vote was in the never Hillary camp. They gave no shit about what she actually proposed for the rust belt or foreign policy. They were locked in the second benghazi became a thing. Those new to politics took the bait when the emails hit and the rest is history.
The Democrats need to be absolutely cut throat in their talking points, not just pointing and saying "arent they ridiculous?" Assuming everyone will make the right choice. And they need to flood the media in the same way the GOP does.
There is no mtv or daily show equivalent, and they will continue to be fucked as a result.
Every single person who has said both parties are out of touch to me has either been unable to say why, were democrats but believed all the falsehoods about dems being the same as republicans. (One of the most damaging falsehoods ever propagated and the most successful tactic Republicans ever used to destroy democratic voter turnout outside of voter laws) They all turned out to be truly ignorant of the political parties outside of what they heard from sound bites which republicans are so good at media wise.
What does "push for peace and non-intervention" entail? Obama often took non-interventiontist approaches and emphasized soft power over hard power in a number of situations (Syria, Iran, Russia). But, blanket non-intervention is not a realistic policy either.
This is not flipping a switch. If there are politicians who show willful disregard for plainly established facts, it's because their voters are equally dismissive of those facts. These people aren't conjured out of thin air; they represent the thoughts and interests of their constituents.
HarryHengst
Member
You people need to get rid of first past the post system. Its horrible and will always lead to a two-party system, leaving no space for third/fourth/fifth/sixteenth parties to be elected.
Schattenjäger;234558317 said:http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/23/politics/donald-trump-approval-poll/
Yea so we need electoral reform to ensure that third parties can thrive without risk of potential spoiler effects
Fixed. Won't happen though thanks ironically enough to our bipolar system.
Pew shows that the stats agree with him. At the time, Congress' approval stood around 28% while individual reps on average were polling at 40% approval.
http://www.people-press.org/2014/07...ss-voters-views-of-their-own-representatives/
Dude Abides
Banned
We have plenty of third parties. Nobody likes them either.
Vermillion
Banned
Schattenjäger;234558317 said:Yea so we need a 3rd party
Hold that thought until the day of the next election.
PeskyToaster
Member
Congress sucks! Let me voice this by voting the same person in for 50 terms.
"But the future refused to change."
Carpe Libertatem
Member
Fenno's Paradox.
Somehow American voters consistently fall for Congresspeople running campaigns that are explicitly against Congress.
now this is insightful.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Yes automation needs to happen.
Lord Frieza
Member
I mean, 40% is still pretty low, but I won't concede. All my Congress people goddamn suck. Every. Single. One.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I like the part where people whine that politicians are out of touch with regular Americans when in reality most "regular Americans" are uninformed blockheads that aren't in touch with reality. This is not limited to either side, either.
Example: people complained in the aftermath of the election that Clinton lost in those key states because wasn't tough enough on bringing back the coal jobs. Except the people who voted on that were too out-of-touch to realize coal is dying and that even if you brought coal back, most coal mining jobs are going to be replaced by automated mining operations.
The average voter is a gormless oaf who probably couldn't even find Russia on a map, much less give a shit about what they're actually doing.
Example: people complained in the aftermath of the election that Clinton lost in those key states because wasn't tough enough on bringing back the coal jobs. Except the people who voted on that were too out-of-touch to realize coal is dying and that even if you brought coal back, most coal mining jobs are going to be replaced by automated mining operations.
The average voter is a gormless oaf who probably couldn't even find Russia on a map, much less give a shit about what they're actually doing.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Mathematically, it's entirely unsuprising that people hate congress but love their congressional representative. It's just a measure of geographical polarization. If all red districts were 75% R and 25% D, and all blue districts were 75% D and 25% R, and congress was split 50% R and 50% D, then on congressional represenative approval will be 25% higher than congressional approval, because people are clustered with representatives they like but congress is obviously less clustered. People aren't being illogical - the US just uses a shitty electoral system.
It's only a paradox if you can't do basic maths.
It's only a paradox if you can't do basic maths.
Bay Maximus
Banned
Well what does that say about the citizens that voted them in / allowed them to be voted in? Say what you want about the US, we have (mostly) free elections and this government reflects the ignorance, fears and complacency of America. We get out what we put in.
You can't blame folks for freaking out about their livelihood disappearing. A big failure of 21st century liberalism is its inability to offer proactive solutions to help people suffering from outsourcing and automation.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
You don't, though. It is extortionately expensive and time-consuming putting up any kind of serious election effort, and requires a great deal of political experience and a good set of surrogates. You aren't going to get anywhere in politics without the support of one of the major parties; they act as gate-keepers to American democracy.
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