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Taking a look at the LGBT representation in Persona 5 (Light Spoilers)

PaulloDEC

Member
It really is shocking that two characters like P5's gay predators can exist in 2017, even in a Japanese game. Those characters could have very easily been removed from the game, and frankly they should've been.

I don't expect positive LGBTI representation from a Persona game, but I don't expect deeply harmful ones either.
 
I think they may have been going for more of an eccentric who is too involved with his art and kinda socially stunted so he never really thinks about sex or relationships at all.[/SPOILER]

That's exactly what they're going for. Yusuke is just in his own world and the other characters routinely call out his "weirdness". He's the Cloudcuckoolander of the group.
 
That's exactly what they're going for. Yusuke is just in his own world and the other characters routinely call out his "weirdness". He's the Cloudcuckoolander of the group.
I think his sexuality is fluid too. He never outright states or shows any interest other than "woman stripping within five feet of me".
 

Theecliff

Banned
playing through persona 4 for the very first time (also my first persona game) and whilst i'm absolutely loving my time with it some stuff has definitely stuck out to me as being a little bit weird (in regards to representation). it's kinda strange that romancing guys isn't an option when your character is practically a blank slate and you can do so with practically every female social link (other than your little cousin). hell you even get the occasional flirty lines of dialogue towards guys but they're all played off as jokes! it seems like a poor, limiting oversight to not allow players to pursue this if they so choose. shame the sequel looks even worse in some regards.

It's OK for a fictional character to not be a perfect model of tolerance. Yousuke was being a dick; that's what he does.
there's nothing wrong with a character being a dick, but as the comic relief character there's both the feeling that you're supposed to laugh at these jokes at the expense of gay/bi guys, and no one actually bothers to call out his bigotry towards homosexuality when he's often called out for other things (or at least as far as i've got in the game). the bias against homosexuality is just kind of accepted.
 
I'm not very far into the game but is Yusuke suppose to be Asexual? It sounded a bit like he is suppose to be gay. When you are in Madarames house and he reveals that he wanted to make a nude painting, he says something along the lines that he has no desire for the opposite sex

People seem to be having such an issue with this line. He doesn't like
Ann
as a member of the opposite sex. He isn't attracted to her[/I. She's supposed to be "the hot one" but that line doesn't say anything more then the fact that she's not Yusuke's type. Which of course doesn't prelude him from being gay, bi, or asexual, but knowing the series as a whole, it is doubtful.

I'm a little surprised there aren't any male confidants that turn romantic honestly. It would at least look like better LGBT comparison, as well as appease a subset of female fans, seeing as Hashino doesn't seem up to making a Persona game with a canon female protagonist.
 
Yosuke is not being a dick. He was literally there with you and saw what Kanji's real issues were. He never does this with any of the others after they solve their shot, not even Rise who you'd think he'd be perving all over.

He's written to be virulently homophobic for literally that one scene then never mentioned again, which is even more striking because he was meant to be a romance option so late into development that they have recorded dialogue of it.

It's a vastly out of character moment for the sole purpose of cracking a shitty joke.
 

HeatBoost

Member
It'd be nice if Atlus stopped going for cheap jokes at the expense of queer folks

hey that rhymes

I'm just tired of these moments clashing with the game's themes. Same with P4. I said this in the thread, they need to make up their minds if they wanna be mature takes on societal issues in Japan or a bunch of animu bullshit. It's not just the gay stuff, but even with the sexual harassment stuff. Like Ann is completely objectified by the game and characters numerous times and it's so tiring. Her in battle pose is a freaking 90 degree bend boobs and ass pose.

I don't see how any of this is uniquely "animu." Bad jokes and cheap sexualization are no more unique to anime than ultraviolence and plot contrivances are unique to Hollywood.

It's interesting, in the wildly unique SMT meta-franchise the Persona games have always kind of leaned towards the more commercial side of things (a trend which has only intensified with 3 and it's scions, especially 4 and it's avalanche of spinoffs), and I can't help but wonder if this kind of lowest common denominator stuff is just a side-effect of that. It probably doesn't help that the games star a bunch of dumbass high school kids, which is a kind of Trojan horse for being able to do dumbass shit.

With Hashino's team working on their fantasy RPG, Persona 6 could be handed off to another team entirely (either that or it'll be like four to eight years from now) so we'll see what happens next time around.
 
This is really sad. Of all things, I don't understand how they don't get how Persona here in the west is the most gayest videogame ever. And I mean that as a positive.
 
Great write-up. One of the many disappointing elements of the game.

3 & 4 had issues with this too, as noted, but I hoped the developers would have evolved past that since it's been almost a decade. And 2 was much better on that front. It's especially disappointing considering the thematic elements at the heart of P5. The game keeps betraying its own point during the "comedy" scenes. Same thing with the constant sexualization of Ann. I wouldn't necessarily have been offended in another game, but after what she goes though in the first chapter, it's kinda gross.

Lala ended up being alright aside from her shitty joke of a name but I recall the MC having a few questionable thought bubbles about her. But I don't remember the details.
 

True Fire

Member
Minor homophobia is pretty typical of Japan, but the beach scene was downright hateful. If it was a Western game the devs would be writing heartfelt twitter apologies by now.
 
I agree with pretty much everything OP. The scenes in question really took me out of the game.

Also, Lala is a drag queen. Its stated if you try to work at the bar.
 

OrionX

Member
I've talked to those characters multiple times at their hang-out spot, just to see if there's anything redeemable to found, and literally all they ever talk about is underage guys... It's some pretty depressing shit.
 

molnizzle

Member
Just had the beach scene yesterday and was shocked that they doubled down on the gay predator thing. That shit is unacceptable even from Japan.

Honestly there's a lot in this game that I'm surprised doesn't cause an uproar on GAF. The way you can just straight up date your teacher (and various other adult women) as a minor and have it be a-ok is fucking weird.
 

Sophia

Member
I think his sexuality is fluid too. He never outright states or shows any interest other than "woman stripping within five feet of me".

They don't really imply any fluidity regarding his sexuality, as far as I know. He's largely just more absorbed in other stuff.



Anyhow, that beach scene is cringe-worthy. Ugh. I didn't think they'd somehow get even worse then the "OMG SHE'S A HE?!" crap from Persona 3, but... : \
 

GeoGonzo

Member
Yeah, this is pretty bad. Thanks for making a thread about it, because this is something worth highlighting/discussing. Hopefully Atlus (and other devs) will take notice and do a better job in the future.
 
Honestly there's a lot in this game that I'm surprised doesn't cause an uproar on GAF. The way you can just straight up date your teacher (and various other adults) as a minor and have it be a-ok is fucking weird.

A whole new thread could be made about that. Some of the things implied as you complete her social link are pretty insane.
 
Thanks for the detailed OP!

Was just reading this FemHype article yesterday, about transphobia in Persona 3 and Catherine, and now gay panic with Persona 5.

ATLUS & ACCOUNTABILITY: WE NEED TO STOP GIVING QUEERPHOBIC GAMES A PASS
persona1.png

The transphobia in Persona 3 is upfront, cliché, and something of a groaner. It’s the trap motif all over again, which frames trans women as a commodity for the consumption of men while simultaneously invalidating their identity. A femme-presenting person is used as a cheap gag to elicit disgust, shock, and derision from the main characters and the audience. Whether or not this person identifies as trans is ultimately irrelevant to the stigmatization it perpetuates against gender non-conforming people — especially trans women. It upholds political myths that frame us as predators, or just bad copies of “real” women. These tangible implications are often violent, especially for trans women of color.
It’s painful, though a common scene in comedy, and its prevalence often informs how cis populations perceive us. This myth has, to no small degree, affected my own life in very tangible ways. I’ve been shouted and jeered at in public, pressured to leave jobs, and forced to adapt a state of hyper-awareness in social situations. It can become incredibly stressful, and to have these perceptions reinforced by a cheap gag is a crude reminder of the pain I so often feel, but it’s hardly the worst offender from Atlus.

Catherine is notable for featuring Erica, a waitress whose gender is explicitly addressed by her friends, one of whom is Vincent, the game’s protagonist and player character. While Persona 3 features a one-off offense, Catherine’s transphobia is routine and pervasive. Erica is subject to constant harassment by her peers like misgendering, grumbles about her deadname and past, and explicit mention of her “being a man.” In the game’s final scene, Toby, visibly shaken, cries: “I want my damned V-card back!” Erica shrugs it off, saying: “Once that card is punched, there’s no refund.” She’s not allowed to be offended because to acknowledge this scene’s damaging message is to validate her identity.

These beliefs — while held by the characters — are featured without criticism for the purpose of cheap laughs, the crux of which is the implicit assumption that the players agree with a ‘hard truth’ in the jokes’ underlying rhetoric. Catherine is absolutely venomous towards Erica — hell, the villain treats her better than any of the protagonists do. But unlike Atlus’ presumed audience, I don’t find these moments funny; they hit too close to home. And to top it off, the game’s Japanese artbook explicitly deadnames and misgenders Erica in her character profile. The result is not just innocuous queerphobia represented in a game or book, but a representation of bigotry that tacitly upholds the social and political status quo that have dangerous effects on the lives of actual queer people.​
...
Persona’s androgynous aesthetic and focus on self-interrogation felt like a mirror where I could reach in and congeal my own reflection. These stories held power for me, and they meant something — a way for me to understand and explore my identity in times of illness and trial. It’s hard for me to appreciate them now. These games have moved me to tears, and I’d be lying if I said that I’m not still affected by my time with them. It’d be easier to just move on, but they matter too much to me.

Still, the Persona games continue to betray their own thematic declarations of diverse self-actualization and acceptance if they can’t represent the humanity and complexity of queer and marginalized people. I realize that I’ve come to resent the games themselves and my cloying attachment to them. How can I move on? Persona 5 doesn’t benefit from that important time and place for me like past Atlus games, so I wonder if — when played on its own merits — will I be able to appreciate it despite the ache I feel in my chest? Despite the anger I harbor?

My personal feelings are valid, but they’re not my call to action. It’s perfectly fine to find value in Persona, and I’m certainly not asking anyone to feel the animosity that I do. Trust me, I’m envious of you — I want to love these games, too. I want this conflict in my chest to be resolved. Rather, we need to do better at nurturing these conversations and holding developers accountable for the stories they tell and, perhaps most importantly, by promoting the diversity of storytellers themselves. Representation cannot end at the screen.​
 

molnizzle

Member
A whole new thread could be made about that. Some of the things implied as you complete her social link are pretty insane.

(paraphrasing)

"I can't believe we're doing this! I mean, you're a minor!"
several sentences later
"Now that you're my boyfriend, are there any commands you want to give me? I'll follow them, you know. *wink*"
you spent some time alone with Kawakami

like WTF?
 
Thanks for the detailed OP!

Was just reading this FemHype article yesterday, about transphobia in Persona 3 and Catherine, and now gay panic with Persona 5.

ATLUS & ACCOUNTABILITY: WE NEED TO STOP GIVING QUEERPHOBIC GAMES A PASS
persona1.png

The transphobia in Persona 3 is upfront, cliché, and something of a groaner. It’s the trap motif all over again, which frames trans women as a commodity for the consumption of men while simultaneously invalidating their identity. A femme-presenting person is used as a cheap gag to elicit disgust, shock, and derision from the main characters and the audience. Whether or not this person identifies as trans is ultimately irrelevant to the stigmatization it perpetuates against gender non-conforming people — especially trans women. It upholds political myths that frame us as predators, or just bad copies of “real” women. These tangible implications are often violent, especially for trans women of color.
It’s painful, though a common scene in comedy, and its prevalence often informs how cis populations perceive us. This myth has, to no small degree, affected my own life in very tangible ways. I’ve been shouted and jeered at in public, pressured to leave jobs, and forced to adapt a state of hyper-awareness in social situations. It can become incredibly stressful, and to have these perceptions reinforced by a cheap gag is a crude reminder of the pain I so often feel, but it’s hardly the worst offender from Atlus.

Catherine is notable for featuring Erica, a waitress whose gender is explicitly addressed by her friends, one of whom is Vincent, the game’s protagonist and player character. While Persona 3 features a one-off offense, Catherine’s transphobia is routine and pervasive. Erica is subject to constant harassment by her peers like misgendering, grumbles about her deadname and past, and explicit mention of her “being a man.” In the game’s final scene, Toby, visibly shaken, cries: “I want my damned V-card back!” Erica shrugs it off, saying: “Once that card is punched, there’s no refund.” She’s not allowed to be offended because to acknowledge this scene’s damaging message is to validate her identity.

These beliefs — while held by the characters — are featured without criticism for the purpose of cheap laughs, the crux of which is the implicit assumption that the players agree with a ‘hard truth’ in the jokes’ underlying rhetoric. Catherine is absolutely venomous towards Erica — hell, the villain treats her better than any of the protagonists do. But unlike Atlus’ presumed audience, I don’t find these moments funny; they hit too close to home. And to top it off, the game’s Japanese artbook explicitly deadnames and misgenders Erica in her character profile. The result is not just innocuous queerphobia represented in a game or book, but a representation of bigotry that tacitly upholds the social and political status quo that have dangerous effects on the lives of actual queer people.​
...
Persona’s androgynous aesthetic and focus on self-interrogation felt like a mirror where I could reach in and congeal my own reflection. These stories held power for me, and they meant something — a way for me to understand and explore my identity in times of illness and trial. It’s hard for me to appreciate them now. These games have moved me to tears, and I’d be lying if I said that I’m not still affected by my time with them. It’d be easier to just move on, but they matter too much to me.

Still, the Persona games continue to betray their own thematic declarations of diverse self-actualization and acceptance if they can’t represent the humanity and complexity of queer and marginalized people. I realize that I’ve come to resent the games themselves and my cloying attachment to them. How can I move on? Persona 5 doesn’t benefit from that important time and place for me like past Atlus games, so I wonder if — when played on its own merits — will I be able to appreciate it despite the ache I feel in my chest? Despite the anger I harbor?

My personal feelings are valid, but they’re not my call to action. It’s perfectly fine to find value in Persona, and I’m certainly not asking anyone to feel the animosity that I do. Trust me, I’m envious of you — I want to love these games, too. I want this conflict in my chest to be resolved. Rather, we need to do better at nurturing these conversations and holding developers accountable for the stories they tell and, perhaps most importantly, by promoting the diversity of storytellers themselves. Representation cannot end at the screen.​

Yeah, some of the stuff with Erica in Catherine was pretty unsettling.
 
One of my friends described Persona 5 in particular, and the series in general, as a story of rebellion written by privileged people who never had to rebel. I'm inclined to agree with her
 

Vorg

Banned
I don't even understand how the platform holders allow for stuff this offensive to slip by. I mean, those guys at the beach, holy shit.
 

Aizo

Banned
This answer maybe makes things worse instead of alleviating it, but considering the age of consent in Japan is not as clear cut as it is here in the west, maybe those dudes hitting on Ryuji isn't meant to be seen as hitting on an underage person. After all, your MC enters romantic relationships with adults as well. (Not trying to defend Japan's age of consent, just that the intent might not be as we read it, maybe a Japanese person can clarify further).

That being said, those characters are still excessively stereotypical.
Age of consent in Tokyo is 18, so no. Also, no close age gap exemption laws exist here.
 
Do these criticisms reach Atlus Japan?

Most Japanese game devs fucking stumble when confronted by questions of representation and diversity, but we at least know they hear them. But does Atlus even hear this?
 

Maxinas

Member
Do these criticisms reach Atlus Japan?

Most Japanese game devs fucking stumble when confronted by questions of representation and diversity, but we at least know they hear them. But does Atlus even hear this?

They don't care. They've made it clear with their recent and past responses.
 

robotrock

Banned
Do these criticisms reach Atlus Japan?

Most Japanese game devs fucking stumble when confronted by questions of representation and diversity, but we at least know they hear them. But does Atlus even hear this?

I think they largely ignore markets outside of Japan when it comes to the reception and the development of these games. I don't know if their fanbase over there is as vocal of it as we are. Even here these issues aren't being talked about as much as they should be.
 
Do these criticisms reach Atlus Japan?

Most Japanese game devs fucking stumble when confronted by questions of representation and diversity, but we at least know they hear them. But does Atlus even hear this?
Atlus doesn't care, P Studios don't care.

They won't care. It's a small miracle LaLa wasn't played like a typical Okama archetype.

That shit is SUPER offensive.
 

Vamphuntr

Member
One of my friends described Persona 5 in particular, and the series in general, as a story of rebellion written by privileged people who never had to rebel. I'm inclined to agree with her

I feel like in the context of the game they consider rebelling simply as fighting back. The game tries to take the moral high ground by saying you are reforming society but in the end you are simply taking justice in your own hands because the judicial system is often powerless. All of the persona users are simply fighting back and defending themselves in the end because someone is blaming them for something they are innocent. S links are more or less the same without spoiling them. All of them got publicly shunned and humiliated for something they didn't do.

You aren't fighting against sexualization of women but punishing a pervert that cannot be touched because of his fame. You aren't solving cases for the greater good as often you are threatened both physically and legally if you don't do something before the deadline imposed.
 

Aeana

Member
Most gamers don't seem to care. Even on GAF, people keep recommending P5 :/
I care a lot about this issue, and I'd still recommend Persona 5, albeit with several caveats. A person can decide whether those caveats are important enough for them to skip it entirely.

Refusing to buy doesn't really send the message you want, anyway. Being vocal and communicating directly does.
 
Made it to the aforementioned beach scene a couple days ago. Tried playing it again last night and the fire was gone. After about 60 hours, the tropey characters, weird localization, and somewhat aimless direction of the game's story were starting to take their toll, but that beach scene might have cemented me putting the game down for good. I'm giving it a couple days before I know for sure.

Also, you can date Kawakami? What the actual fuck? Between Morgana being a horndog and the game in general having a huge boner for Ann, this game was creepy enough as is.
 
I don't even understand how the platform holders allow for stuff this offensive to slip by. I mean, those guys at the beach, holy shit.

Do these criticisms reach Atlus Japan?

Most Japanese game devs fucking stumble when confronted by questions of representation and diversity, but we at least know they hear them. But does Atlus even hear this?

Because from the Japanese cultural perspective, issues of genuine LGBT representation - and not merely lesbian T&A for otaku - are fairly fringe and not openly acknowledged to be issues in society. From the point of view of the creators, the people who will most give them grief are foreigners who clearly just 'don't get' Japanese society, and thus their complaints can be dismissed outright.
 

Burbeting

Banned
I care a lot about this issue, and I'd still recommend Persona 5, albeit with several caveats. A person can decide whether those caveats are important enough for them to skip it entirely.

Refusing to buy doesn't really send the message you want, anyway. Being vocal and communicating directly does.

Where I stand as well. The game is still my favorite of this year, but the issues it has can, and should be still called out.
 
First thing I hope ends up happening with the rerelease is hitting those characters.

I don't need them to add a same sex option but at least please remove the offensive garbage of those scenes. They add nothing to the game.
 

Cyframe

Member
I talked about this in another topic. Yosuke from Persona 4, was a constant irritant. Not only during the tent scene but throughout the game, he makes jabs as Kanji's sexuality. He knows it's a sore spot, but let's make a lowerclassmen feel even worse about himself.

In Persona 5, presenting the gay men as predators was unacceptable. This was a game about challenging social norms, but they didn't with this aspect of a very marginalized demographic. And even with Ann's hardships, they put her in a compromising situation right after she dealt with horrible events relating to a friend.

Lala was a breath of fresh air, mature, calm, collected. So they know how to write certain characters, they just don't want to.

And the excuse of this being a Japanese game only goes as far as Altus USA, who go along with approving the homophobia.

This might not be a big deal to people, but kids and teens from a lot of their opinions of the LGBTQ community through the media they consume. Growing up, the word f*g was pretty common on popular shows and I suffered because of that as a gay teen.

I like the game, but I'm sick of tropes that paint me as a predator when a big portion of the LGBTQ community are victims of sexual assault. And trans women are often forced into sex work. Altus can do better.

EDIT:

And I'm not asking for a LGBTQ MC, just, either do LGBTQ representation right, or don't have it in at all.
 
Because from the Japanese cultural perspective, issues of genuine LGBT representation - and not merely lesbian T&A for otaku - are fairly fringe and not openly acknowledged to be issues in society. From the point of view of the creators, the people who will most give them grief are foreigners who clearly just 'don't get' Japanese society, and thus their complaints can be dismissed outright.

I still refuse to grant credence to a Tokyo based company making a Tokyo based game about society and rebellion and not having even a mention of Ni-Chome.
 

Aki-at

Member
Do these criticisms reach Atlus Japan?

Most Japanese game devs fucking stumble when confronted by questions of representation and diversity, but we at least know they hear them. But does Atlus even hear this?

For me it's a strange one because as the series has progressed, it has not only gotten bigger in the West but in Japan as well.

And with the presentation of characters and negative elements in the stories (Even doubling down in some instances) has not stopped the growth of the Persona franchise in it's sales. Japan I'm sure dictates whatever they do with the series and it's bigger than ever. I feel as Atlus is one of the most old fashioned company, this isn't something that'll be hard to change.

I mean they still think streaming is awful and block us from doing anything about it... very old fashioned Japanese thinking from the company will hold them back in a number of issues. It's such an unfortunate and sad irony as the latest release is going against society yet conforms to a lot of issues within society.
 

LotusHD

Banned
First thing I hope ends up happening with the rerelease is hitting those characters.

I don't need them to add a same sex option but at least please remove the offensive garbage of those scenes. They add nothing to the game.

That's what irked me the most. Like there was literally no point to adding those scenes there, and yet they did it anyways.
 

Famassu

Member
It's OK for a fictional character to not be a perfect model of tolerance. Yousuke was being a dick; that's what he does.
It's ok to have intolerant characters in stories, but at that point they need to have a point in the larger scheme of things vs. just having homophobic, bigot characters that just shit on gays for laughs. Or at least it's not ok to make bigotry "fun" and acceptable or something no one at all objects to.
 

Dylan

Member
Sadly, I don't expect progressive views of sexuality, heterosexual, homosexual, or otherwise, to come out of these traditional Japanese-centric Japanese developers.


Heck, it was only in the past decade or so that Western developers started getting the message that oggling dolled up female characters in games is juvenile and gross.

I'm hopefully that as time moves on and younger generations start taking more active roles in game development we will start to see more progressive representation and less stereotyping across the board.
 
I still refuse to grant credence to a Tokyo based company making a Tokyo based game about society and rebellion and not having even a mention of Ni-Chome.

It's fucking frustrating, no?

If anything, the example from the OP is one of the more worse things that can happen; I follow a few people on twitter that are gay and live in Japan, and normally they don't get outright hate about their sexuality. More of a dismissive confusion.

This? Nah, the game isn't confused, at least on this.
 
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