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DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
(05-28-2015, 09:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by FliXFantatier

I admit it. I'm intolerant towards

  • racists
  • homophobes
  • sexists
  • xenophobes
  • Bigots
  • islamophobes

So am I, but that's not what the picture is saying and you know it.
Moosichu
Member
(05-28-2015, 09:39 AM)
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Originally Posted by Nicktendo86

Yep

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/polit...-10279837.html

Ugh. It's so frustrating. The reason I think cuts are a bad idea is because I think government safety nets are necessary for a truly developed country. But I don't see how you can think that and then still think forming a angry mob and going after the wrong people is a good idea.

Despite what I think about UKIP as a party, Douglas Carswell seems like a genuinely good person.
Crab
Famed for his Europa Universalis IV exploits
(05-28-2015, 09:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by Nicktendo86

Yep

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/polit...-10279837.html

And another one with a bit note detail:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...ng-racist.html

It just seems remarkably pointless to do this. If someone didn't already believe those things about Carswell, this won't have persuaded them. Even if they did already believe those things, that doesn't necessarily mean they think he deserves that kind of treatment, so it still won't have persuaded them. It certainly won't have dissuaded Carswell about his own beliefs. The only result it has is to reinforce the opinions of contrary sides about each as right and the other as wrong. I know a fair few students who do (somewhat) more moderate versions of this, and every time I just find myself asking what on earth the point is.
Kuros
Member
(05-28-2015, 09:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by Nicktendo86

Anyone see the abuse Carswell got yesterday from the idiots at that anti Tory demo? No place for that in a democratic society. Shouting Nazi and racist at him as well, how much of a fucking idiot do you have to be.

Carswell is actually a decent guy as well. Actively campaigning against some of the more lunatic tendancies of his party.
Any Questions
Member
(05-28-2015, 09:41 AM)
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Thank-you for the thread. Love politics and will aim to keep up with progress and contribute.

Happy to say that I am centre right with my politics and am glad we have a majority government.

I hope that the conservatives don't let us down.

The debate to consider I feel is the obvious Europe question.

I consider that staying in is for the best and am looking forward to the upcoming debate. Hopefully the scare tactics won't cloud things. Will see.
FliXFantatier
Member
(05-28-2015, 09:44 AM)
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While I don't agree with their chanting. And I am sure Carswell is on the libertarian and not racist spectrum of UKIP.

He is nevertheless the MP of a party with lots of questionable policies and more than a handful of literal racists amongst their ranks. He can hardly be surprised by the reaction he should have known what he was getting into when he jumped ship.
Maledict
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(05-28-2015, 09:48 AM)
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Originally Posted by DeFiBkIlLeR

Is this just going to be a place for the left wing to gather and shout down anyone that dares to disagree with them?

..because I got enough of that at RllMuk forums where the intolerant, fascist hatred of such people with differing views is quickly pounced upon with snotty, condescending replies.

If its anything like the old politics thread, exactly the opposite. Our right leaning posters are much more active in posting than the left wingers for the normal thread.
Wrestlemania
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(05-28-2015, 09:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by DeFiBkIlLeR

Is this just going to be a place for the left wing to gather and shout down anyone that dares to disagree with them?



..because I got enough of that at RllMuk forums where the intolerant, fascist hatred of such people with differing views is quickly pounced upon with snotty, condescending replies.

If you don't actually want your views to be challenged and debated then I'm sure there are plenty of right wing echo-chambers out there where you can post instead.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
(05-28-2015, 10:02 AM)
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Originally Posted by DeFiBkIlLeR

Is this just going to be a place for the left wing to gather and shout down anyone that dares to disagree with them?

What? Were you never in OT1?

ukpoligaf leans centre-right.
Last edited by Sir_Crocodile; 05-28-2015 at 10:30 AM.
MrChom
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(05-28-2015, 11:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by Nicktendo86

Anyone see the abuse Carswell got yesterday from the idiots at that anti Tory demo? No place for that in a democratic society. Shouting Nazi and racist at him as well, how much of a fucking idiot do you have to be.

There's a place for peaceful protest but it looks like what happened here looks to have crossed the line. Can't speak for Carswell, certainly don't like his party but at the same time he's an MP....we kinda need them to be 1. working, and 2. under scrutiny right now, especially in a house that's this tight votes wise.

If you're going to be throwing around the abuse, though, throw it at the minister (and shadow minister for balance) in charge of whatever you're upset about, not just a random member of the opposition.
QuicheFontaine
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(05-28-2015, 11:23 AM)
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Originally Posted by Maledict

If its anything like the old politics thread, exactly the opposite. Our right leaning posters are much more active in posting than the left wingers for the normal thread.

Well...."active in posting" isn't necesarily the same as "shouting down contrary views". I feel that the election thread went a bit the way of the latter in the week following the election result, but I put that down to shock and frayed nerves rather than Neogaf being a left-wing echo chamber or whatever.

If this thread is anything like the previous UK poligaf then it'll probably be reasonably balanced and quite a pleasant place to post from either side.
Mr. Sam
Member
(05-28-2015, 11:35 AM)
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Because finding the subscribe button is more effort than I'm willing to go to: posting to subscribe.
Crab
Famed for his Europa Universalis IV exploits
(05-28-2015, 11:36 AM)
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I have genuinely never used the Subscribe button in my life. I don't even know where it is.
RobotNinjaHornets
Samantha Hain,
The Pagan Princess
(05-28-2015, 11:37 AM)
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Originally Posted by Mr. Sam

Because finding the subscribe button is more effort than I'm willing to go to: posting to subscribe.

Originally Posted by Crab

I have genuinely never used the Subscribe button in my life. I don't even know where it is.

...wha? It's right there at the top of the thread.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
(05-28-2015, 11:39 AM)
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I never bother with subs, I just rely on the firefox awesome bar and post history
PJV3
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(05-28-2015, 11:39 AM)
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Originally Posted by Wrestlemania

If you don't actually want your views to be challenged and debated then I'm sure there are plenty of right wing echo-chambers out there where you can post instead.

The Left control everything.
Crab
Famed for his Europa Universalis IV exploits
(05-28-2015, 11:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by Sir_Crocodile

I never bother with subs, I just rely on the firefox awesome bar and post history

Pretty much.
Spaghetti
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(05-28-2015, 11:41 AM)
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Originally Posted by FliXFantatier

While I don't agree with their chanting. And I am sure Carswell is on the libertarian and not racist spectrum of UKIP.

He is nevertheless the MP of a party with lots of questionable policies and more than a handful of literal racists amongst their ranks. He can hardly be surprised by the reaction he should have known what he was getting into when he jumped ship.

yeah. carswell is too good for UKIP and quite honestly a big fish in a small pond. would not be surprised if he goes independent eventually.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
(05-28-2015, 11:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by DeFiBkIlLeR

Is this just going to be a place for the left wing to gather and shout down anyone that dares to disagree with them?

Not at all. We're still in the post-election settling-down phase, but it tends to be a pretty sensible tolerant bunch that posts here. Or at least, if someone seems intolerant it is probably not what it looks like - like on the rare occasion people gang up on zomgbbqftw; it's not that he's right-wing, but that he is just irritatingly right a lot of the time that he deserves a bit of gentle ribbing the odd time he fouls up.
Kotetsu534
Member
(05-28-2015, 11:57 AM)
Think Simon Jenkins and Martin Kettle have it about right on the new government. First Simon:

The government will go on pouring subsidies into the middle-class interests. There is always money for pensions tax relief, first-time buyers and inherited property. There is no mention of new property taxes. As for Cameron’s pledge to free businesses from red tape, this was surreal. Has he not been briefed on the deluge of new pensions and building regulations that he has just imposed on small businesses the length of the land? There has been no such deregulation.

The left can dismiss any Tory leader as bound by tribal instinct to oppress the poor and line the pockets of the top 1%. That is not Cameron. He may be victim of an incorrigible cronyism, and his overdue attempt to reform Britain’s welfare state has left many rough edges, some of them inexcusable. But he is a politician sincere in wanting to avoid the disciplines of a growing economy falling too heavily on those in genuine need. He is just not good at saying so.

Perhaps the PM should take lessons on Edmund Burke from his backbench colleague, Jesse Norman. Cameron is a traditional Tory. He is no radical. He does not believe in a smaller state or in radical redistribution of wealth. He is a city-dweller, a Whitehall centralist, a natural meddler, an interventionist at home and abroad. The countryside, natural beauty or the arts do not feature in his make-up – or in the Queen’s speech. Such localism as he professes has been forced on him by Europe’s new wave of centrifugal politics. Cameron is no Thatcher, indeed the worrying thing is his professed admiration for Blair.

He takes a look at some policies:
- Extending the NHS to 7 days (likely to face heavy opposition from the BMA, costly).
- Selling off social housing on the cheap. (Costly.)
- Doubling free childcare entitlement to 30 hours per week. (Costly.)
- Unconditional powers for Scotland and HS2. (Probably costly.)
- Let Whitehall take control of housing land across the land, dictating disposals and transfers. (Centralism, probably costly.)
- Continued centralisation of education, as all new primaries and secondaries, and those deemed failing, are brought under de facto control of the Secretary of State (even if subcontrated to a "free" provider). (Centralism, probably costly.)
- He suspects the move to bring social services in line with the NHS will end up taking it out of local authority control too, but this isn't clear.

All of this is going to make life difficult for Osborne's goal of getting rid of the deficit during this Parliament. Very interested to see what his new budget holds.

As for Martin Kettle, he pointed out here that the 4 things of importance to the government's legacy in the Queen's Speech were Europe, devolution, tax and spending, and childcare (which will be very popular with key voters). Even if changes to trade union political funding rules, strike ballots and yet more invasive communications data powers anger some people deeply, they won't matter much in the end.
Last edited by Kotetsu534; 05-28-2015 at 12:47 PM.
Wrestlemania
Member
(05-28-2015, 12:05 PM)
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But he is a politician sincere in wanting to avoid the disciplines of a growing economy falling too heavily on those in genuine need. He is just not good at saying so.

I don't understand this bit at all. Not only is he not good at saying so, he's seemingly been ineffective at acting on it also.
31GhostsIV
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(05-28-2015, 12:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by Crab

You can't redraw the boundaries to create a level playing field, really. It's just not possible given how FPTP works. If you want to have equal sized constituencies that are in the realm of +/-10% of 67,000 constituents and don't break across county council or borough lines, then there's only so many ways you can draw them. The Conservatives aren't getting an advantage because they personally draw up the borders - they don't, it's done by an independent body. They get an advantage because their vote is more geographically concentrated than Labour's. This means they do poorly in seats they lose, and just well enough in seats they win; so not many votes are wasted. Labour's big problem is that they're doing quite well in places they're losing (Scotland) and too well in seats they win meaning wasted votes piling up (the North).

The only way to change this is to get rid of FPTP.

This is genuinely my no.1 political desire.

Oh, I agree. That's my point, really - if the Tories wanted equal votes, they would want to ditch FPTP, not be eager to mess with boundary lines. Is the reducing the number of MPs also an independent thing?
Maledict
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(05-28-2015, 12:06 PM)
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Moving social services out of LA control and into the NHS is absolutely the right thing to do. Social services costs are way too high for local government to bear - that's why 75% of local government funding now comes from central government rather than your council tax and local rates.

Take social services out of LA control, reduce the budgets, and you instantly grant a huge amount more localism to areas - because council tax is (once again) the majority of funding for a council.
Crab
Famed for his Europa Universalis IV exploits
(05-28-2015, 12:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by 31GhostsIV

Oh, I agree. That's my point, really - if the Tories wanted equal votes, they would want to ditch FPTP, not be eager to mess with boundary lines. Is the reducing the number of MPs also an independent thing?

No, reducing the number of MPs is a political decision, although how the boundaries would get redrawn as a result of MP reductions is not. I suspect Cameron will be rather less keen to reduce the number of MPs than he once was, because it would now favour Labour.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
(05-28-2015, 12:10 PM)
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Most on the left don't seem to realise just how much a tiny majority of 12 will constrain Cameron and Osborne.

All the hysteria of Tory Armageddon on the poor will not happen because of it, also you have to look at the make up of the backbenchers of the Tory party in 2015, it's not the silver spoon brigade of Thatchers time, many of them come from normal working backgrounds who have done well for themselves.

These days you will find just as many 'privileged' MP's on the Labour benches as you will on the Conservatives.

..although having said that, Jacob Rees Mogg should keep his mouth shut as much as possible, because if anything reinforces the stereotype of the typical Tory MP from the shires, it's him. :)
Crab
Famed for his Europa Universalis IV exploits
(05-28-2015, 12:12 PM)
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Works both ways, though. The 12 nutters are just as likely to rock the boat as the 12 moderates; if not more so.
Mr. Sam
Member
(05-28-2015, 12:15 PM)
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They'd a much larger majority last election but, obviously, were tempered more by the Liberal Democrats.
Black Republican
water to wine
the drink exchanger
(05-28-2015, 12:16 PM)
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nice new thread, should be an interesting couple of months ahead
31GhostsIV
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(05-28-2015, 12:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by DeFiBkIlLeR

These days you will find just as many 'privileged' MP's on the Labour benches as you will on the Conservatives.
)

Is there a breakdown of this anywhere?

Not being snide, just curious.
Mr. Sam
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(05-28-2015, 12:18 PM)
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I suppose it would depend on your definition of "privileged."
Crab
Famed for his Europa Universalis IV exploits
(05-28-2015, 12:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by 31GhostsIV

Is there a breakdown of this anywhere?

Not being snide, just curious.

I don't know about 2015, but in 2010, there were 25 MPs who had a background in manual labour before joining politics; 22 were Labour, 2 Conservative, and 1 Liberal Democrat. Just over 9% of the Labour Party had a background in manual labour, less than 1% of the Conservative Party, and just over 2% of the Liberal Democrats.

See: http://researchbriefings.files.parli...28/SN01528.pdf
Last edited by Crab; 05-28-2015 at 12:28 PM.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
(05-28-2015, 12:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by Crab

Works both ways, though. The 12 nutters are just as likely to rock the boat as the 12 moderates; if not more so.

But it only takes 6 Tory MPS to vote against the government for its policies to be blocked, David Davies is waiting with his bloc of MP's to put the boot in.

12 really isn't enough to be a radical administration.
Jackpot
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(05-28-2015, 12:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by DeFiBkIlLeR

Is this just going to be a place for the left wing to gather and shout down anyone that dares to disagree with them?



..because I got enough of that at RllMuk forums where the intolerant, fascist hatred of such people with differing views is quickly pounced upon with snotty, condescending replies.

Stop playing the persecution card and make a cogent argument.
Kuros
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(05-28-2015, 12:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by DeFiBkIlLeR

But it only takes 6 Tory MPS to vote against the government for its policies to be blocked, David Davies is waiting with his bloc of MP's to put the boot in.

12 really isn't enough to be a radical administration.

It would probably take a few more than than given DUP/UU voting inclinations. They're unlikely to vote against the gov on most things. At most abstain.

As we've seen though they have already long grassed the ECHR stuff due to not being able to get it through.
31GhostsIV
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(05-28-2015, 12:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by Crab

I don't know about 2015, but in 2010, there were 25 MPs who had a background in manual labour before joining politics; 22 were Labour, 2 Conservative, and 1 Liberal Democrat. Just over 9% of the Labour Party had a background in manual labour, less than 1% of the Conservative Party, and just over 2% of the Liberal Democrats.

See: http://researchbriefings.files.parli...28/SN01528.pdf

Thanks Crab
Crab
Famed for his Europa Universalis IV exploits
(05-28-2015, 12:33 PM)
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As a rather depressing piece of context, in Oct 1974, just over 40% of Labour's MPs came from manual labour backgrounds. The party got taken over by solictors, barristers, and professional politicians. Still more working class than the others, but by a barely appreciable margin.
Guerrillas in the Mist
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(05-28-2015, 12:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Crab

I don't know about 2015, but in 2010, there were 25 MPs who had a background in manual labour before joining politics; 22 were Labour, 2 Conservative, and 1 Liberal Democrat. Just over 9% of the Labour Party had a background in manual labour, less than 1% of the Conservative Party, and just over 2% of the Liberal Democrats.

See: http://researchbriefings.files.parli...28/SN01528.pdf

While this is obviously a tiny number, surely the percentage of the population actually involved in some sort of manual labour is at an all-time low, especially when you consider the presence of non-UK citizens in areas such as agriculture, transporting goods etc.
FliXFantatier
Member
(05-28-2015, 12:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by Crab

As a rather depressing piece of context, in Oct 1974, just over 40% of Labour's MPs came from manual labour backgrounds. The party got taken over by solictors, barristers, and professional politicians. Still more working class than the others, but by a barely appreciable margin.

It's not really surprising.
It starts on the local level.
Who has time to invest into local politics. Who can easily take an afternoon off to do whatever?
In Germany it is often teachers and other state employees who get very flexible time arrangements, especially if it is for political work.
Also self-employed who can juggle their time more flexibly.
Dependent workers who have a regular 9-5 or maybe even shift work won't get off so easily unless their employers are very supportive.
Crab
Famed for his Europa Universalis IV exploits
(05-28-2015, 12:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Guerrillas in the Mist

While this is obviously a tiny number, surely the percentage of the population actually involved in some sort of manual labour is at an all-time low, especially when you consider the presence of non-UK citizens in areas such as agriculture, transporting goods etc.

You'd be surprised. About 17.2% of the UK's population works in manual labour. The reason you expect less is because they're the group with the least profile in our media and politics. If Labour was perfectly representative of the country, you'd expect them to have 17.2%. Given that they're actually (supposedly) a working class party, you'd actually expect them to have a *higher* proportion than the country as a whole, so well above 17.2%.
Last edited by Crab; 05-28-2015 at 12:41 PM.
Uzzy
(05-28-2015, 12:47 PM)
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The Scotland Bill has been published. Unsurprisingly, the SNP have instantly attacked it as not going far enough. Seems they're complaining about UK Government vetoes on eight areas, including benefit changes.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
(05-28-2015, 01:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Uzzy

Unsurprisingly, the SNP have instantly attacked it as not going far enough.

Guess they should call a referendum then....they really are a bunch of grievance seeking piss & wind merchants.
FlammableD
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(05-28-2015, 01:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by DeFiBkIlLeR

Guess they should call a referendum then....they really are a bunch of grievance seeking piss & wind merchants.

Crab
Famed for his Europa Universalis IV exploits
(05-28-2015, 01:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by DeFiBkIlLeR

Guess they should call a referendum then....they really are a bunch of grievance seeking piss & wind merchants.

I think comments like this are probably the reason people make condescending remarks, rather than your political beliefs.
FliXFantatier
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(05-28-2015, 01:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by DeFiBkIlLeR

Guess they should call a referendum then....they really are a bunch of grievance seeking piss & wind merchants.

DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
(05-28-2015, 01:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by FlammableD

No really, if your sense of injustice is so great, get on with it and call another referendum, after all Nicola Sturgeon is having to accept policies from a government that lacks 'legitimacy' in her words.

If she is as principled as she likes to make out, such a state of affairs is an affront to Scotland and a referendum should have already been called.

Instead of boring the rest of the country with your imagined grievances, just get on with it.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
(05-28-2015, 01:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by Crab

I think comments like this are probably the reason people make condescending remarks, rather than your political beliefs.

Wait, calling out a political party is now grounds for personal attacks..
Sir_Crocodile
Member
(05-28-2015, 01:21 PM)
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Posting this thread in off topic rather then community seems to have lowered the general tone. :/
MrChom
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(05-28-2015, 01:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by DeFiBkIlLeR

Guess they should call a referendum then....they really are a bunch of grievance seeking piss & wind merchants.

Well they were elected on a manifesto of getting what they believe to be the best deal for Scotland. So if they believe they can get more then it is their duty to their electorate to try to do so.

This is in much the same way that I would expect my MP to try and obtain the best deal for my constituency.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
(05-28-2015, 01:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by MrChom

Well they were elected on a manifesto of getting what they believe to be the best deal for Scotland.

Which they believe the best way of achieving is by leaving the UK, so what are they waiting for?
Crab
Famed for his Europa Universalis IV exploits
(05-28-2015, 01:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by DeFiBkIlLeR

Which they believe the best way of achieving is by leaving the UK, so what are they waiting for?

I think people are allowed to want more than one thing. The SNP probably most want to leave Scotland, but, if that can't be acheived because there isn't sufficient support for it, they'd then still prefer a highly autonomous Scotland to a less autonomous Scotland. This was one of the things which they were (overwhelmingly) elected on the basis of and thus have a great deal of support for, so calling them out on this just makes you look a little silly.

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