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[LTTP] Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions (spoilers)

aadiboy

Member
Wow, just finished it. What can I say? Though I did have some problems with it, I think FFT is a great game, and a great start to the Ivalice Alliance. This is my first full playthrough of the game and the second ever Ivalice game I've played, FFXII being the first. I suppose it's sort of interesting going from XII to Tactics, going with full knowledge of espers and nethicite which others wouldn't have if they played Tactics first.

Let's get into the gameplay. I love that the game has intricate gameplay systems. There is a great implementation of the job system where you can mix and match abilities from different jobs to maximize the potential of your characters. There are tons of jobs that are all fairly different from eachother, though I only really played around with a fraction of the jobs the game has available.

I think the first half of the game is skewed a little too hard, with several of the story battles taking me a couple tries to beat. I got stuck on the final Wiegraf battle just like everyone else seems to, but after a couple hours of tries I found the one strategy that just barely let me beat him. The game slopes down in difficulty after that point. By the second half of the game you amass a strong group of unique characters that trivialize pretty much every encounter. Cid and Balthier, for example, are super op and make any "Defeat x character" battles super quick. I'll admit I cheesed through chapter 4 pretty hard, but there really isn't any reason not to other than to give yourself a challenge. With how long battles take in this game, it's too much of a hassle to grind the generic characters up to par with the unique ones. Overall, I like the gameplay, it just needed to be balanced a little better.

Now on to the story. It's amazing, and I feel like pretty much no other game I've played really has a story like this. XII has a bit of the political intrigue, but even it doesn't go as crazy with different factions as much as Tactics does. I have to hand it to the localization team, they did a beautiful translation with flowery dialogue that fits the setting. Square seems to save their best localization teams for Ivalice games, which makes me sad there hasn't been one in years now (other than the HD remaster of XII).

At its core, the story of Tactics is about classism, and this theme is no better demonstrated than in the dichotomy between Ramza and Delita. The two grew up as brothers despite Ramza being of the noble House Beoulve and Delita being lowborn. Throughout the game we see how events shape Ramza and Delita differently. Ramza has a strong sense of justice and overall seems to strive for peace instead of war. Delita is not as naive, and realizes that true harmony in Ivalice can't be achieved through peace. Together they shape the future of Ivalice in their own ways.

One thing about the story that does disappoint me a little is that it gets to be a little fetch questy towards the end. You're either going to a castle to save Alma or get a new auracite crystal. What makes up for this is the great dialogue, the betrayals and backstabs between many different characters, and the Lucavi fights. I love all the Lucavi fights in this game, they're as imposing as the esper fights in XII. The Belias and Cuchulainn fights are my favorite since they're a challenge to beat, while the later Lucavi fights can be steamrolled through.

To be honest, with the way the game kept on ramping up the plot twists I was expecting the ending to be a lot better. The leadup to the final boss wasn't great...you go to Mullonde to fight the templar knights, Folmarv summons Ultima, and you fight it and that's it. I mean, I know the plot of the Lucavi the whole game was to summon Ultima, but I expected more to be done with it. I also expected there to be a final confrontation between Ramza and Delita, but there was none. I don't know how to feel about the Ovelia stabbing Delita. Basically everyone who Delita manipulated ended up dead with the exception of Ramza and Orran, and Orran's story doesn't end well either. I didn't expect to have a happy ending, but for it to be so abrupt and kind of a downer was unexpected. I do think it's good that the game didn't have a cliche "everything is resolved" ending, and it's true to life in that way.

Anyway, I have some questions regarding the lore and connections to XII. Is auracite nethicite? What happened to Zodiark? Who trapped the espers in auracite? Also, when a human uses auracite, the Lucavi posesses that person's body, right? So as soon as Wiegraf used his auracite, Belias took over his body? It's kind of unclear. I suppose most of those questions haven't been officially answered, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions is a great game, and I recommend everyone interested in srpgs or Ivalice to try it out. As for me, the next Ivalice game I'll play is probably Vagrant Story, which I've heard nothing but good things about.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
l i t t l e m o n e y

sorry I have nothing else to contribute
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
Still need to play it. Hope Square Enix updates the iOS version. If that version becomes unplayable, then I'll have to figure out what the next best way to play it is. That would be the PSP version through emulation right?

There really needs to be a PC version.
 

preta

Member
Never know that Vagrant Story is a part of Ivalice games. Is it??

Kind of but not really. There are some nods to Ivalice lore and location names, and FFXII makes reference to VS similarly as well, but Matsuno says that it was never intended to take place in the same universe, even though it sure seems like it does.

It certainly has the same kind of tone, atmosphere, writing, and setting.
 
On the game difficulty, it's a great game to play with some headcanon for your characters or self-imposed restrictions on characters.

Whenever I play, I usually try to use generics as much as possible and only bring along story characters if they make sense for that particular battle's story. I also try to come up with a 'theme' for my army every playthrough (or for each chapter: e.g. Knights in Chapter 1, Thiefs and 'mercs' in Chapter 2; etc): god-hating faithless warriors and wizards, zealous high-faith knights and priests, 'Far East' mercenary band of monks, ninja, and samurai; thieving highwaymen; etc.

It's probably my favorite overall console game though, mind you... So having played it probably over a dozen times, I've had lots of reason to try new ideas for it. I don't think I started 'roleplaying' in it until my third playthrough.

I try not to 'TG Cid' the game, sort of like, say, avoiding items like Zodiac Spear in OG FF XII or Deathbringer, Karkata, Arcturus in FF XII. Usually try restrict use of Math, too.
 

Muffdraul

Member
Kind of but not really. There are some nods to Ivalice lore and location names, and FFXII makes reference to VS similarly as well, but Matsuno says that it was never intended to take place in the same universe, even though it sure seems like it does.

It certainly has the same kind of tone, atmosphere, writing, and setting.

I don't know if I ever would have picked up on any superficial similarities between FFT and Vagrant Story, the only reason I was aware of any connection was that I read it was from the same director, character designer etc. And of course some of the name references. But I remember the first time I played FFXII I thought "My god, this looks/sounds/feels almost like some kind of Vagrant Story 2."
 

DJIzana

Member
Now on to the story. It's amazing, and I feel like pretty much no other game I've played really has a story like this. XII has a bit of the political intrigue, but even it doesn't go as crazy with different factions as much as Tactics does. I have to hand it to the localization team, they did a beautiful translation with flowery dialogue that fits the setting. Square seems to save their best localization teams for Ivalice games, which makes me sad there hasn't been one in years now (other than the HD remaster of XII).

I enjoy XII quite a bit but yeah, Tactics will always remain my favorite. XII is missing out on some of the more elaborate scheming and grand wars but hey, it's still Ivalice and it's still pretty awesome. I mean, to me, the Judges almost more than make up for it (in terms of just how they're presented and just their overall design).
 
I enjoy XII quite a bit but yeah, Tactics will always remain my favorite. XII is missing out on some of the more elaborate scheming and grand wars but hey, it's still Ivalice and it's still pretty awesome. I mean, to me, the Judges almost more than make up for it (in terms of just how they're presented and just their overall design).
Yeah it's hard for XII to compare that front. It's kinda like... a novel versus a movie. XII is a much more cinematic experience and all about its acting -- by nature of its franchise, too. So it's naturally a bit more focused and tighter in political scope. FF Tactics, in contrast, like a novel, can expand so many different threads.

The thing that always stopped XII from quite approaching FFT/TO for me, too, was the like of graphical character changes. If there was ever another FF that deserved the graphic Job change treatment of X-2, it's XII. I always end up replaying FFT because the graphical variety of generic Job changes does wonders for [extreme] replayability. What I mean by that is, the third and fourth and seventh playthrough where you really want to change up your aesthetic, or not stare at the same character art the entire game.

Either graphical choice isn't better per se -- there's an argument for a consistent character appearance, too, in crafting a narrative and establishing personality. Balthier running around with a Time Mage dunce cap would no the wonderful acting and cutscene direction no favours. I just mean for replayability, it does wonders and it's why I ultimately replay FFT or TO more often.
 

Usobuko

Banned
Classism is present in plenty of games, what makes FFT sticks out is you have a character that stood in complete contrast of the MC in terms of ideals and the bittersweet outcome when they both achieved what they sought out to do. It's like one of those shakespeare tragedy.

OP, you might be interested in this opinion piece.

Final Fantasy Tactics, entitlement, and recognizing privilege

I adored the script in War of the Lions for what its worth. Fitting, dramatic without being overindulging.
 

DJIzana

Member
Yeah it's hard for XII to compare that front. It's kinda like... a novel versus a movie. XII is a much more cinematic experience and all about its acting -- by nature of its franchise, too. So it's naturally a bit more focused and tighter in political scope. FF Tactics, in contrast, like a novel, can expand so many different threads.

The thing that always stopped XII from quite approaching FFT/TO for me, too, was the like of graphical character changes. If there was ever another FF that deserved the graphic Job change treatment of X-2, it's XII. I always end up replaying FFT because the graphical variety of generic Job changes does wonders for [extreme] replayability. What I mean by that is, the third and fourth and seventh playthrough where you really want to change up your aesthetic, or not stare at the same character art the entire game.

Either graphical choice isn't better per se -- there's an argument for a consistent character appearance, too, in crafting a narrative and establishing personality. Balthier running around with a Time Mage dunce cap would no the wonderful acting and cutscene direction no favours. I just mean for replayability, it does wonders and it's why I ultimately replay FFT or TO more often
.

Aye... I honestly couldn't agree more. I prefer Tactics to XII too because, it's as you said, it's more branching and the customization and just... the reasons I've listed previously too. Could also be because the fact that it's so badass with that certain cartoonish look makes(/made) it that much cooler too. xD

It sure as heck would be weird as well seeing Balthier running around outfitted like that too. I guess that design choice was for the better hahaha.

Either way, those judges... gotta agree there! Too badass! :D
 

duckroll

Member
Tactics Ogre
Final Fantasy Tactics
Vagrant Story
Final Fantasy XII
Crimson Shroud

What a legend. Can't wait for Lost Order later this year. Hope it comes out in English as well, a Matsuno game doesn't feel quite right without a solid localizaton.
 

Fraxin

Member
Tactics Ogre
Final Fantasy Tactics
Vagrant Story
Final Fantasy XII
Crimson Shroud

What a legend. Can't wait for Lost Order later this year. Hope it comes out in English as well, a Matsuno game doesn't feel quite right without a solid localizaton.

Need Alex to handle the localization.

On topic, you won't find alot of connections between FF tactics and Vagrant Story, except for maybe fanservice OP.
 

aadiboy

Member
Classism is present in plenty of games, what makes FFT sticks out is you have a character that stood in complete contrast of the MC in terms of ideals and the bittersweet outcome when they both achieved what they sought out to do. It's like one of those shakespeare tragedy.

OP, you might be interested in this opinion piece.

Final Fantasy Tactics, entitlement, and recognizing privilege

I adored the script in War of the Lions for what its worth. Fitting, dramatic without being overindulging.
This is a good read, I do think those themes are presented well throughout the game.

I enjoy XII quite a bit but yeah, Tactics will always remain my favorite. XII is missing out on some of the more elaborate scheming and grand wars but hey, it's still Ivalice and it's still pretty awesome. I mean, to me, the Judges almost more than make up for it (in terms of just how they're presented and just their overall design).
I still prefer XII to Tactics, but both are amazing games. Will the holy quad of Matsuno, Ito, Yoshida, and Sakimoto ever collaborate on a game again?
 

FinalAres

Member
I don't know if I ever would have picked up on any superficial similarities between FFT and Vagrant Story, the only reason I was aware of any connection was that I read it was from the same director, character designer etc. And of course some of the name references. But I remember the first time I played FFXII I thought "My god, this looks/sounds/feels almost like some kind of Vagrant Story 2."
Vagrant Story wasn't originally supposed to be in Ivalice, but there are lots of shared locations, and SE did eventually say it was set in Ivalice, even though Matson disagrees.
 

Strings

Member
Check out Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together op, arguably the superior game (they're both fucking phenomenal though). It's a crime Matsuno hasn't made more stuff :(
 

Ratrat

Member
Tactics Ogre
Final Fantasy Tactics
Vagrant Story
Final Fantasy XII
Crimson Shroud

What a legend. Can't wait for Lost Order later this year. Hope it comes out in English as well, a Matsuno game doesn't feel quite right without a solid localizaton.
Crimson Shroud? What is that?
 

ookami

Member
I pray for a Switch re-release without the PSP slowdowns.

I'll play it for the 20th time.
Seriously I'd love to see this happen but... We'll have to settle for the PSP version. Sony might have full exclusivity on the licence.

Final Fantasy Tactics
Tactics Ogre
Vagrant Story
Final Fantasy XII
Never heard about Crimson Shroud. Is it good ? After seeing some gameplay It lack FFT's sprites animations (don't get me started on this, it was just too perfect).
 

DJIzana

Member
I still prefer XII to Tactics, but both are amazing games. Will the holy quad of Matsuno, Ito, Yoshida, and Sakimoto ever collaborate on a game again?

Yeah, that's fair. I mean... I love both so... :p

And as for your other question? Obviously, I hope so. Lost Order is a mobile game that has 2 out of the 4, at least (from Cygames). >_<
 

DrDamn

Member
I think the first half of the game is skewed a little too hard, with several of the story battles taking me a couple tries to beat. I got stuck on the final Wiegraf battle just like everyone else seems to, but after a couple hours of tries I found the one strategy that just barely let me beat him.

I see that point as a good thing personally. Some challenge and reason to mix up your tactics and try different things. The solution to the Wiegraf battle was well out there tactically but I bet you got a load of satisfaction from finding a strategy to beat him?

I love a lot of games for lots of different reasons, but when pressed to name my favourite it will always be FFT. Story, tactics, gameplay, progression all fantastic.

The Calculator job was also genius and deserves a special mention.
 
Anyone with a 3DS need to download Crimson Shroud. One of the most underrated game on 3DS, it being relatively cheap is a plus too.
 

duckroll

Member
Never heard about Crimson Shroud. Is it good ? After seeing some gameplay It lack FFT's sprites animations (don't get me started on this, it was just too perfect).

It's pretty good. It can get really hard. It's less of a mainstream game like FFT and FFXII, and more obtuse like Vagrant Story too. It's designed like a miniature tabletop RPG campaign with a lot of text, dice rolls, and so on. Translation is by Alexander O Smith.

http://level5ia.com/blackbox/us/crimson-shroud/
http://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/f_UKC0OlYRxqkBiqeEO3L-Vj_hnA3d69
 

ookami

Member
It's designed like a miniature tabletop RPG campaign with a lot of text, dice rolls, and so on. Translation is by Alexander O Smith.

Sounds pretty good, thanks.
Illustration & Character Design
HIDEO MINABA
Prior Works :
FINAL FANTASY TACTICS
FINAL FANTASY XII
LOST ODYSSEY​
I was wondering why most of Matsuno's work always had the same aura visually. Or why the character design was familiar. I guess I have now the answer.
 
Tactics Ogre
Final Fantasy Tactics
Vagrant Story
Final Fantasy XII
Crimson Shroud

What a legend. Can't wait for Lost Order later this year. Hope it comes out in English as well, a Matsuno game doesn't feel quite right without a solid localizaton.

That reminds me that I need to go back and get the real ending to Crimson Shroud one day.
 
Anyway, I have some questions regarding the lore and connections to XII. Is auracite nethicite? What happened to Zodiark? Who trapped the espers in auracite? Also, when a human uses auracite, the Lucavi posesses that person's body, right? So as soon as Wiegraf used his auracite, Belias took over his body? It's kind of unclear. I suppose most of those questions haven't been officially answered, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

Auracites and nethicites are two types of magicites. If I recall correctly, in FFXII: Revenant Wings, auracites are tools that are used to summon Espers from the World of Illusion, but the summoning pact comes at a great price since the stones sap the user of their soul little by little.

Of course in FFTactics the evil Espers are trapped in the "Netherworld", not the World of Illusion. I suppose the auracites in FFTactics are more powerful than the ones in Revenant Wings and the evil Espers they're associated with can immediately take over your soul instead of draining it little by little.

FFTactics A2 also attempts to explain the Lucavi:

There are worlds within our world of Ivalice that we cannot touch or know as we know our own bed, home, or town.
The Netherworld, the Empyreal Plain, the World of Illusion... these are together known as otherworlds, unseen by eye; untouched by hand.
The order of creatures known as scions hails from these otherworlds. They are found in many places, in many lands, and they count among their number emissaries of the gods, protector spirits, and even greater doers of evil.
Though the otherworlds are not normally accessible from Ivalice, if certain requirements are met, it is possible to give otherworldly power a physical manifestation in our world. This is most commonly seen in the pact made by the summoners who calls down an Esper to fight for them.
From the legend of a great mage in the far eastern realms who sundered a magickal seal, thus receiving a scion as a servant, it would seem that they, too, operate by these same principles.
In Jylland, it has been discovered that that summoning of scions is possible with the use of a particular magickal device. However, it is certain that the power manifested through this means is only an echo of the scion's true power. To evoke the true power of a scion, it would be necessary to harmonize oneself to the scion's being, fusing not only one's purpose with the scion, but one's own body and mind.

Anyway Zodiark does appear in FFTactics. He's part of an optional dungeon called Midlight's Deep.
 
Just played through this game, so I figured I'd piggyback on the latest LTTP thread to share my thoughts.

I played the Android version. It's great actually, and only $8 - $12 (seems like it goes on sale occasionally). If you have a smartphone and a passing interest in this game, there's really no reason not to pick this up. The controls took some getting used to, but they actually work pretty well. I was pleasantly surprised with them.

My favorite thing about this game was definitely the story and tone. I appreciate the seriousness, and the story is well written enough to justify that seriousness. I also think the themes around truth and history are a really great homage to the actual (real-world) medieval era.

The gameplay was kinda boring to me. I really liked the first half of the game, but eventually, the game just becomes way too easy. Arithmetician is way too OP, dragoon and ninja are way too OP, reraise is way too OP. I could go on; lots of stuff in this game is OP.

I didn't do any of the sidequests, because I didn't discover any over the course of the game (I looked up that sort of stuff after I beat the game). Not sure if they're worth doing... If it's just going to be more easy battles then I'm worried I'll just be bored going through them.

Overall, I would say I really liked the game, and I'm glad I played it. Probably the best $8 I ever spent on video games.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
Well, Amazon is looking to produce the next "Game of Thrones." Someone get Jeff Bezos' number.
Really, it would be best like Netflix Castlevania. The Zodiac Demons alone would make live action look ridiculous.
Imagine an entire series looking like WotL's cutscenes...
 
Best Final Fantasy ever made. And yeah early game is a bit tough, and grinding can be a death sentence if you get in a battle with the 'effin black chocobos.

Is War of the Lions worth playing over the original? Emulation for both.

With the resolution/slowdown patch (dont know if thats a thing in emulation) its better. Some people like the original translation but War of the Lions just fixes all the errors and dumb stuff people loved.
 

Qvoth

Member
FFXIV%20Sep%208%201_t.jpg


guess who's coming back?
 
I like FFT but I think the gameplay is pretty lackluster.

The Job system is good but is filled with so many useless or hard to understand abilities and classes, theres a reason theres a revamped patch for the game that really makes the game play so much better.

On top of that coming from games like Shining Force, Fire Emblem, and other SRPG's the limited amount of characters you could take into battle with you was severely disappointing and made battles feel small. It didn't help that battles also took fairly long despite how few enemies and characters would generally be involved.

It had some good ideas to be sure but I still think its vastly overrated and its the story that people remember loving so much more then anything else. I wish we could get a proper remake for the game that really enhances the job system and makes the gameplay a lot more fluid and interesting and really feels like you are leading a proper army.

Also something about the game always made me think it could have just been done better. Like look at how many characters end up joining you that are named. You get a ton of them but you also get a ton of randomly generated soldiers as well and it always seemed to me like we just didn't need both. I would have liked to see a more character driven story with more named characters and just not had the random soldiers outside of specific battles. It just felt very pointless outside of a few things you could do (like forcing enemies to join you) and it would have helped to have the named characters feel more important when they do end up joining you. Having them just be entirely optional always made it seem like they really didn't matter in the end and outside of a few specific scenes they don't offer any sort of arc or characterization after finally joining you.

It just always seemed to me that FFT could have just been better in so many ways that I never really understood the universal praise it always got. It's a pretty flawed game that could be so much better.
 

aadiboy

Member
I could see FFT as an animated show. Maybe not like the animated cutscenes from the game, but based on Yoshida's art. Live action could work, but no one would ever give it the budget it needs to be faithful to the game so it's probably best as an animated show.
 
I could see FFT as an animated show. Maybe not like the animated cutscenes from the game, but based on Yoshida's art. Live action could work, but no one would ever give it the budget it needs to be faithful to the game so it's probably best as an animated show.

I think it would make a great play more then a show or anything else.
 
I like FFT but I think the gameplay is pretty lackluster.

The Job system is good but is filled with so many useless or hard to understand abilities and classes, theres a reason theres a revamped patch for the game that really makes the game play so much better.

On top of that coming from games like Shining Force, Fire Emblem, and other SRPG's the limited amount of characters you could take into battle with you was severely disappointing and made battles feel small. It didn't help that battles also took fairly long despite how few enemies and characters would generally be involved.

It had some good ideas to be sure but I still think its vastly overrated and its the story that people remember loving so much more then anything else. I wish we could get a proper remake for the game that really enhances the job system and makes the gameplay a lot more fluid and interesting and really feels like you are leading a proper army.

Also something about the game always made me think it could have just been done better. Like look at how many characters end up joining you that are named. You get a ton of them but you also get a ton of randomly generated soldiers as well and it always seemed to me like we just didn't need both. I would have liked to see a more character driven story with more named characters and just not had the random soldiers outside of specific battles. It just felt very pointless outside of a few things you could do (like forcing enemies to join you) and it would have helped to have the named characters feel more important when they do end up joining you. Having them just be entirely optional always made it seem like they really didn't matter in the end and outside of a few specific scenes they don't offer any sort of arc or characterization after finally joining you.

It just always seemed to me that FFT could have just been better in so many ways that I never really understood the universal praise it always got. It's a pretty flawed game that could be so much better.
I agree with a lot of this. It's actually disappointing when characters join you in this game, because it means they are going to be written out of the story. I guess that's a concession to the permadeath mechanic, but in general I don't feel like permadeath makes sense in a game where you only use 5 characters.

I would really love to see another attempt at something like FFT, but with a more character driven story, a more balanced battle system, and a few of the other gameplay kinks ironed out. The core of the game is good, but I do wish we could see another iteration of it.
 
I could see FFT as an animated show. Maybe not like the animated cutscenes from the game, but based on Yoshida's art. Live action could work, but no one would ever give it the budget it needs to be faithful to the game so it's probably best as an animated show.

Yeah, things like the Lucavi (and even just the Chocobos) might be goofy looking in live action without the proper budget.
 
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