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Dutch Company Claims it Owns No Man's Sky World Generation Formula [they don't]

B

BRocknRolla

Member
SG-17 said:
Except it's not a creation. It's a discovery. Hello Games had no reason to assume that anyone attempted to patent it. It's like if a filmmaker made a movie centered around a newly discovered species of bird. The person who discovered this new bird isn't entitled to anything from the filmmaker and can't own that bird.
Click to expand...

A patent is a creation though, not a discovery. If you genetically made that new bird, you could absolutely patent it. While the math itself may have been a discovery, the patent is likely on a novel manner in which to use it, which presumably is what the patent is for. Whether or not it actual is novel isn't something I'm weighing in on, but clearly someone agree that it was if they've been issued a patent.

Likewise, "I didn't assume you had a patent," wouldn't be a legitimate defense for a patent case.
 
M

MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
Seems like a fishing expedition to get a peek at someone else's code more than anything else.

DeepEnigma said:
Wonder what a procedurally generated pie would taste like?

It can be either horrible, or the best damned thing one would have ever tasted.
Click to expand...

You'd get bored of it after two or three bites, according to the internet.
 
C

Calabi

Member
SG-17 said:
Except it's not a creation. It's a discovery. Hello Games had no reason to assume that anyone attempted to patent it. It's like if a filmmaker made a movie centered around a newly discovered species of bird. The person who discovered this new bird isn't entitled to anything from the filmmaker and can't own that bird.
Click to expand...

What's the difference between a discovery and a creation? I dont think its absolutely certain that maths and this algorithm arent creations. It's not a hundred percent clear that math's is applicable to all areas in the real world. Maths could just be a man made creation that happens to align and help us describe most of what we see in the real world.

You could say the same of music, it's all just patterns, someone discovered a pattern that sounds like All Along the Watchtower. We create or discover the patterns.

If all we have is the film for evidence and someone claims they created the bird in it(and have evidence), and the bird doesn't exist anywhere else in the world then how are you so sure they didn't create it.
 
Tal Shiar Agent

Tal Shiar Agent

Member
Calabi said:
What's the difference between a discovery and a creation? I dont think its absolutely certain that maths and this algorithm arent creations. It's not a hundred percent clear that math's is applicable to all areas in the real world. Maths could just be a man made creation that happens to align and help us describe most of what we see in the real world.

You could say the same of music, it's all just patterns, someone discovered a pattern that sounds like All Along the Watchtower. We create or discover the patterns.

If all we have is the film for evidence and someone claims they created the bird in it(and have evidence), and the bird doesn't exist anywhere else in the world then how are you so sure they didn't create it.
Click to expand...
Math is the human explanation for the state of reality. Everything that exists in nature can be reduced to a mathematical formula. That's why it's understood that math isn't created, simply discovered. Einstein didn't create mass-energy equivalence (e=mc2), he merely discovered the concept and transcribed it to a language.

Gielis didn't create the complex shapes and curves found in nature. He merely discovered a new way to accurately transcribed them to a language. To claim ownership over something like that is wrong, and most countries patent offices agree.
 
DeepEnigma

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
SG-17 said:
Math is the human explanation for the state of reality. Everything that exists in nature can be reduced to a mathematical formula. That's why it's understood that math isn't created, simply discovered. Einstein didn't create mass-energy equivalence (e=mc2), he merely discovered the concept and transcribed it to a language.
Click to expand...

Hence why we all live in one big simulation. ;)
 
F

Faustek

Member
ooh came in to say that this is bullshit but I see people on the first page already mentioned Elite.

If any people should claim any sort of ownership to this, in a video game that is, it would be David Braben and Ian Bell the creators of Elite. I mean holy crap what they did with the acorn system. If you all remember how Doom had more installs than Windows 95? Shareware status helped of course but Elit wasn't shareware. The BBC Micro had sold about 150k examples from what I remember and the game itself was close to 150k examples. That was extreme. That gave them the rights to really pound their chests. Imagine something like that happening today? I can't see it.
Anyway the game itself from what I remember had a set number of worlds numbered over 300 trillion and that number wasn't the maximum possible. Just what Braben and Bell decided on themselves. So yeah, this was indeed a game you could play forever.

Ps. Some gameplay on the Acorn
 
C

Calabi

Member
SG-17 said:
Math is the human explanation for the state of reality. Everything that exists in nature can be reduced to a mathematical formula. That's why it's understood that math isn't created, simply discovered. Einstein didn't create mass-energy equivalence (e=mc2), he merely discovered the concept and transcribed it to a language.

Gielis didn't create the complex shapes and curves found in nature. He merely discovered a new way to accurately transcribed them to a language. To claim ownership over something like that is wrong, and most countries patent offices agree.
Click to expand...

Can you prove that though?

I mean there are some areas in reality which maths struggles to describe, and math's goes in lots of different directions that dont describe reality at all(infinite, imaginary numbers for instance).

The maths is separate from the shapes. Is it the only maths, or are there other maths languages that describe the shapes just as well.
 
S

Sakujou

Banned
iam not sure which one is right or wrong. might be that this dutch company tries to make some quick buck, it also might be that sony will los. dont forget about the killzone thingy, the psn outtage or the whole rumble affair of the dual shock where sony also lost.
 
DeepEnigma

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Sakujou said:
iam not sure which one is right or wrong. might be that this dutch company tries to make some quick buck, it also might be that sony will los. dont forget about the killzone thingy, the psn outtage or the whole rumble affair of the dual shock where sony also lost.
Click to expand...

This has nothing to do with Sony. This is a Hello Games issue.
 
LordRaptor

LordRaptor

Member
SG-17 said:
To claim ownership over something like that is wrong, and most countries patent offices agree.
Click to expand...

In theory.

In practice, its been repeatedly demonstrated that PAtent Offices do not understand fundamental principles of computing, and the line between what is unpatentable maths and what is 'work product' or 'a specific implementation method' is incredibly blurry when it comes to software.

Especially when money is involved.
 
E

eyeball_kid

Member
Faustek said:
ooh came in to say that this is bullshit but I see people on the first page already mentioned Elite.
Click to expand...

This company isn't claiming sweeping rights to any procedural generation of worlds, but to Sean's use of the so-called Superformula which algorithmically describes shapes found in nature.

The thing is, there's plenty of prior art of the use of the Superformula in computer graphics, so unless Dutch patent law is really odd I don't know how this would stand up in court. That's probably why Hello has ignored them.
 
F

flashbandit16

Member
JoeyJungle said:
Can anyone find this interview? I did a quick google, I couldn't find any interview with Sean Murray and Business Insider, let alone a specific interview from Feb 2016.
Click to expand...

Here is the article were the Superformula is mention it is at the bottom about 24 paragraphs down. The article in the OP doesn't mention the company nor does the original article from telegraaf.nl but after some googling I found this company Genicap that is co-owned by Johan Gielis who discovered the formula. Johan Gielis does have some patents that reference the formula but I know nothing of patents so I don't know if the patents can be used against No Man's Sky although there is something called the idea–expression divide that might protect Hello Games.
 
DeepEnigma

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
flashbandit16 said:
Here is the article were the Superformula is mention it is at the bottom about 24 paragraphs down. The article in the OP doesn't mention the company nor does the original article from telegraaf.nl but after some googling I found this company Genicap that is co-owned by Johan Gielis who discovered the formula. Johan Gielis does have some patents that reference the formula but I know nothing of patents so I don't know if the patents can be used against No Man's Sky although there is something called the idea–expression divide that might protect Hello Games.
Click to expand...

Nice rundown. Thanks for sharing this. Adding to OP.
 
B

BRocknRolla

Member
LordRaptor said:
In theory.

In practice, its been repeatedly demonstrated that PAtent Offices do not understand fundamental principles of computing, and the line between what is unpatentable maths and what is 'work product' or 'a specific implementation method' is incredibly blurry when it comes to software.

Especially when money is involved.
Click to expand...

The reality is that the legal system itself is slow, and the creation or modification of laws related to that system even slower. Toss in an emphasis on historical precedent like you have in the US, and changing the laws to adapt to the speed at which technology changes seems like an insane prospect.

I don't know the fix for this, but I tend to agree that the patent system in much of the world is fundamentally broken. Businesses can rise and fall in the potential years it could take you to protect yourself using even a legitimate patent. With all the abuse of the system, it makes it even more frustrating.
 
LordRaptor

LordRaptor

Member
BRocknRolla said:
The reality is that the legal system itself is slow
Click to expand...

It's not even that; most laws assume patents once granted are valid and that patents are not awarded frivolously or erroneously, so its a legal case with the odds against you in the first place in proving that a patent is invalid, so the system is automatically setup in such a way that the entity with more money to spend on lawyers is at an advantage.

The original concept of patents were so that humanity as a whole could benefit from new technologies and discoveries, but the inventor of a new technology would have a window of opportunity to benefit from that technology first.

For traditional manufacturing processes - say, the invention of the motorcar - a 20 year window where you are either sole vendor or where you can earn money from licencing makes sense; it took time to set up manufacturing processes, retail channels, vendor logistics, etc.

For a software patent, 20 years is a fucking century long monopoly, in terms of time to implement and distribute software over the web, and the speed at which technology improves.
 
F

Faustek

Member
eyeball_kid said:
This company isn't claiming sweeping rights to any procedural generation of worlds, but to Sean's use of the so-called Superformula which algorithmically describes shapes found in nature.

The thing is, there's plenty of prior art of the use of the Superformula in computer graphics, so unless Dutch patent law is really odd I don't know how this would stand up in court. That's probably why Hello has ignored them.
Click to expand...

flashbandit16 said:
Here is the article were the Superformula is mention it is at the bottom about 24 paragraphs down. The article in the OP doesn't mention the company nor does the original article from telegraaf.nl but after some googling I found this company Genicap that is co-owned by Johan Gielis who discovered the formula. Johan Gielis does have some patents that reference the formula but I know nothing of patents so I don't know if the patents can be used against No Man's Sky although there is something called the idea–expression divide that might protect Hello Games.
Click to expand...

Affirmative.
 
Shpeshal Nick

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
Wulfram said:
The fact that they're using the Superformula doesn't seem to have been public until relatively recently. And they do say they have been trying to contact Hello games directly, we don't know when they started.

Or possibly they may have been waiting until their most directly relevant patent - one about "generating naturalistic scenery on an amusement device" - got approved in the US, which happened in April. Its probably worth mentioning that that patent seems to have only been filed after NMS was announced, though they have earlier more general ones.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. Would suck for Hello and people looking forward to NMS, but at the same time, if the patent has been infringed then appropriate action should be taken.

Hopefully they can come to a settlement that gets a win/win.
 
R

RexNovis

Banned
What a load of BS. This is a custom made algorithm that was made in house by Hello Games. The only people who should own rights to that formula are the people who made it not some company who patented a similar concept. Apparently I was wrong and this particular formula was used to help generate believable life forms.

Regardless, this crap makes me so angry. People can't create something themselves so they just try to take advantage of people who can instead. Absolutely infuriating.
 
M

malfcn

Member
Those is such a weird issue with alot of broad ramifications. Mathematics, programming, DNA etc.

Did Bill Gates discover Windows?
 
U

UnemployedVillain

Member
Calabi said:
It does seem kind of dumb that Hello games admitted to using the formula. Whether or not its legitimate and a bullshit patent, the evidence is pretty damning. Surely it should be an unwritten rule "never admit to using something of someone else's creation" especially in our litigious environment.
Click to expand...

LOL, this is ridiculous. Any given piece of software could use potentially dozens of algorithms that were previously come up with. For a videogame, it's guaranteed. Any game with path finding probably uses A*. Any game with AI probably uses some decision tree structure and algorithm. The idea that you have to "hide" an algorithm being used in nonsense.

100% of developers use algorithms of someone else's creation. This isn't a generalization either. This is an indisputable fact
 
C

Calabi

Member
UnemployedVillain said:
LOL, this is ridiculous. Any given piece of software could use potentially dozens of algorithms that were previously come up with. For a videogame, it's guaranteed. Any game with path finding probably uses A*. Any game with AI probably uses some decision tree structure and algorithm. The idea that you have to "hide" an algorithm being used in nonsense.

100% of developers use algorithms of someone else's creation. This isn't a generalization either. This is an indisputable fact
Click to expand...

Well yeah I know, but the people whom make up the rules and those whom judge them arent necessarily smart reasonable people. So best to err on the side of caution until things change(which may be a while).
 
F

fastford58

Member
UnemployedVillain said:
LOL, this is ridiculous. Any given piece of software could use potentially dozens of algorithms that were previously come up with. For a videogame, it's guaranteed. Any game with path finding probably uses A*. Any game with AI probably uses some decision tree structure and algorithm. The idea that you have to "hide" an algorithm being used in nonsense.

100% of developers use algorithms of someone else's creation. This isn't a generalization either. This is an indisputable fact
Click to expand...

In one of the Dreams videos for PS4 the devs go to wikipedia and literally copy/paste formulae into the game.
 
O

Orca

Member
RexNovis said:
What a load of BS. This is a custom made algorithm that was made in house by Hello Games. The only people who should own rights to that formula are the people who made it not some company who patented a similar concept. Apparently I was wrong and this particular formula was used to help generate believable life forms.

Regardless, this crap makes me so angry. People can't create something themselves so they just try to take advantage of people who can instead. Absolutely infuriating.
Click to expand...

Create something like...a formula for generating random and believable lifeforms?

You're arguing FOR the patent there, you realize that right?
 
E

eyeball_kid

Member
Saint of Killers said:
https://twitter.com/NoMansSky/status/756889227095318528
Click to expand...

Very strange since he already said publicly that he had been using it in NMS. I believe another dev Innes also mentioned it in a tech talk. I guess he could have replaced it with his own algorithm, but his tweet comes off a bit defensive. It wasn't a "non-story" because the only info we had was that they had been testing the Superformula in the game and Sean was happy with the results. I think it's also weird that he calls it "this superformula thing", like he doesn't know what it is, when he's the one that brought it up in an interview.

Regardless, it's great to hear this is a non-issue.
 
C

c0Zm1c

Member
eyeball_kid said:
Very strange since he already said publicly that he had been using it in NMS. I believe another dev Innes also mentioned it in a tech talk. I guess he could have replaced it with his own algorithm, but his tweet comes off a bit defensive. It wasn't a "non-story" because the only info we had was that they had been testing the Superformula in the game and Sean was happy with the results. I think it's also weird that he calls it "this superformula thing", like he doesn't know what it is, when he's the one that brought it up in an interview.

Regardless, it's great to hear this is a non-issue.
Click to expand...

I thought that to be strange too. Nevertheless, it could be that they've developed it to the point that it's no longer recognisable as the Superformula. To prove it would require revealing the source code, something Sean Murray likely wouldn't want to do. The meeting to "chat maths" could be to stay on good terms with Johan Gielis and Genicap, as trading knowledge is something they are interested in.
 
D

diaspora

Member
eyeball_kid said:
Very strange since he already said publicly that he had been using it in NMS. I believe another dev Innes also mentioned it in a tech talk. I guess he could have replaced it with his own algorithm, but his tweet comes off a bit defensive. It wasn't a "non-story" because the only info we had was that they had been testing the Superformula in the game and Sean was happy with the results. I think it's also weird that he calls it "this superformula thing", like he doesn't know what it is, when he's the one that brought it up in an interview.

Regardless, it's great to hear this is a non-issue.
Click to expand...

IIRC he said had plugged it in to see it work, but I don't think he said he actually integrated it into the game proper.
 
LordRaptor

LordRaptor

Member
c0Zm1c said:
The meeting to "chat maths" could be to stay on good terms with Johan Gielis and Genicap, as trading knowledge is something they are interested in.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but the stated intention of using this formula for scientific research, or general mathematical progress is somewhat undermined by the fact it got fucking patented in the first place.

A goal of "just want to advance our undestanding" with a side aim of working with other contributors would be an open source project under a legally protected licence like the GPL
 
N

Netherscourge

Banned
If Genicap owns the patent, then Hello Games needs to pay royalties and licensing fees.

Doesn't mean the game needs to be delayed.

But it does mean Hello Games has to pay the copyright owners their share.
 
D

DGaio

Member
Maybe he refered to "super formula" as the same way someone says "algorithm","equation", "function", etc. Meaning it's just a label to something that can difere from implementation to implementation.
 
C

c0Zm1c

Member
LordRaptor said:
Yeah, but the stated intention of using this formula for scientific research, or general mathematical progress is somewhat undermined by the fact it got fucking patented in the first place.

A goal of "just want to advance our undestanding" with a side aim of working with other contributors would be an open source project under a legally protected licence like the GPL
Click to expand...

Oh I agree. "Filthy opportunists" did spring to mind when I read this line in the PC Gamer article:

Sparrow said Genicap is making a game of its own based on the formula, and that “it would be great if we could trade knowledge with Hello Games.”
Click to expand...

Which I think shows that their intention with the claim isn't exactly just to protect the patent. Because if it was they wouldn't care about what Hello Games was supposedly doing with Superformula and would only want them to stop.
 
E

eyeball_kid

Member
diaspora said:
IIRC he said had plugged it in to see it work, but I don't think he said he actually integrated it into the game proper.
Click to expand...

The Business Insider article states:
A huge secret behind the realism is a fascinating biological algorithm that's been described as a scientific "Superformula." Relying on this and other math to generate star systems and worlds, they've created an immersive cosmos full of unique planets and animals unlike anything we've ever seen.
Click to expand...

It's possible the BI writer overstated or misrepresented the importance, but that would be a pretty big misrepresentation given the "huge secret behind the realism" line. We don't actually have any direct quotes from Sean in this article.

Innes (née Hazel) had a slide on the Superformula in his proc gen talk from last year, and said,
"A good example of that is the Superformula, that's something that Sean has been looking into recently."
Click to expand...

So that's a much smaller statement. Either way, it confirms Sean has knowledge of the formula and was researching it, so his tweet comes off a bit strange. Anyway, I hope Hello can get past this quickly; the last thing they need is another lawsuit.
 
DeepEnigma

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
No Man’s Sky devs meeting with Dutch company to discuss patent claims

Eurogamer reached out to Sparrow today to find out how the situation currently stands, and things aren’t looking dire, so that’s good.

“There have been several sources and people (Sean Murray himself, among others) who have indicated more or less directly that the Superformula has been used,” he said.

“Yesterday Sean Murray invited us for a cup of coffee at Hello Games in order for him to clarify things. We will certainly do that.”
Click to expand...
 
2

2AdEPT

Member
An interesting thread...I know nothing about patents, but logically, if this guy was so steeped in his own superformula being GOd's gift to creation, then why isnt he the one releasing his game next week?

When Murray said his algorithm was "BASED" on the superformula, I took this to mean he created his own formula, and hence why he can be so confident that he didnt use the other guy's, becuase the other guys doesnt work yet..he has no finished product. I realize ideas can be patented without being finished...but in this case it sounds like a stretch.

Of course I dont know for sure, but it sure sounds like this guy patented an idea (like virtual reality) and still hasnt been able to make it work in reality yet and Sean Murray has.

Didnt the last (blobby?fishy?) procedural title that came out use a similar superformula?
 
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