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Jim Sterling vs David Jaffe: Debate on Used Games Market and Online Passes

Books also sell at higher volume with a higher margin. Why would they be concerned when a book costs nothing but the paper it's printed on and ONE man's time to write it? It's not comparable.

Explain why this should matter to the consumer. I don't give a crap what the margins are of the products I buy, I only care whether it's in my price range or not. Since apparently it's the deciding factor, at exactly what margin percentage should I find it acceptable to give up my first-sale rights?

You're also being pretty disingenuous about the cost of book production, many non-fiction books require extensive research, travel, interviewing, and organizational work, not to mention the jobs of editors and fact-checkers to shape it into something publishable. Of course none of that approaches the multi-million cost of game or movie production but you overstated your case.
 
Explain why this should matter to the consumer. I don't give a crap what the margins are of the products I buy, I only care whether it's in my price range or not. Since apparently it's the deciding factor, at exactly what margin percentage should I find it acceptable to give up my first-sale rights?

You're also being pretty disingenuous about the cost of book production, many non-fiction books require extensive research, travel, interviewing, and organizational work, not to mention the jobs of editors and fact-checkers to shape it into something publishable. Of course none of that approaches the multi-million cost of game or movie production but you overstated your case.

It shouldn't matter to the consumer, but at the same time, why should the fact that an online pass means you get $10 less when you trade your game in to Gamestop matter to the publisher? AT the end of the day everyone is looking out for themselves, the difference is the consumer gets the worse end of it because we're not million dollar corporations trying to make more millions, we're just regular joes trying to save a few bucks on what can be an expensive hobby. I don't think anyone is on any higher moral ground.
 
Books going digital have already started the transition.

Also, there was a pretty big difference between the used music and used game segments. You almost never, ever, ever found new releases used for quite some time... just didn't happen often. You could find older releases, but newer ones? Nope.

I can walk into Gamestop a week after release and almost always find a used copy of any big release.

Gamers are a different breed.

Not in my experience. In my neck of the woods there were more places to go and get used music back then than there are games today, so you might have to search more places, but I could generally find newer music or movies. That's opposed to games, where I really only have 3 options: Gamestop, Hastings, and GameXChange. Also depends on your definition of new release.

I know the CD Warehouse by my college always had tons of new release music because people would buy, rip, and then sell the music back. Movies have never been an issue, you can stroll into a Blockbuster right now and find plenty of used new release movies.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Not in my experience. In my neck of the woods there were more places to go and get used music back then than there are games today, so you might have to search more places, but I could generally find newer music or movies. That's opposed to games, where I really only have 3 options: Gamestop, Hastings, and GameXChange. Also depends on your definition of new release.

I know the CD Warehouse by my college always had tons of new release music because people would buy, rip, and then sell the music back. Movies have never been an issue, you can stroll into a Blockbuster right now and find plenty of used new release movies.

That could be true, my experience with used music dates to the 90's, pre-Napster. I don't think I've bought a compact disc since the 90's to be honest.

Someone else has gone over the whole movie debate earlier, but to rehash they have 2 revenue streams for profit before DVD/BD sells. Games don't have that, they have that first big month then a huge decline.

Also, all 4 of these markets have huge piracy issues: books, games, music, and movies. All those involved in those industries would love to have a way to control second hand sales and piracy. Games are the only ones in a position to do something about it in the future, to a certain extent.
 

Zoe

Member
Explain why this should matter to the consumer. I don't give a crap what the margins are of the products I buy, I only care whether it's in my price range or not. Since apparently it's the deciding factor, at exactly what margin percentage should I find it acceptable to give up my first-sale rights?

If a publisher is seeing zero/minimal margins, there will be nothing to return to the developer. If the developer isn't getting enough return, they're going to go under. If the developer goes under, there will be no one to create your game.
 

Fur_Q

Member
If a publisher is seeing zero/minimal margins, there will be nothing to return to the developer. If the developer isn't getting enough return, they're going to go under. If the developer goes under, there will be no one to create your game.

Welcome to the free market, adapt or die.
 

Maxim726X

Member
Listened to the podcast today... It was okay.

Basically, it seems that Jaffe was all about digital download as the future of gaming- Which would be spectacular as a developer but quite honestly a nightmare for the consumer.

It'll get there eventually, too... Only question is when.
 
is there any data yet on whether or not these online passes are actually working? in the podcast they speculate Resistance 3 may have gotten lower sales because of the pass.
 

TUROK

Member
So I can buy a used car, live in a 100-year old house that has had several owners before me, wear second-hand clothing, read a book from the library, buy music from a used record store, etc. but I can't buy a used game? Why are game devs/publishers magically exempt from the used products market when everything else in life, besides food, can be bought and sold in a used condition? It's this logical disconnect and the convoluted rationale used to justify it that gets me.
Because even though used games may have a few scratches on them, they still work just as well as new games. Wear and tear doesn't really apply to them as it does with the other products you've mentioned.
 

Scapegoat

Member
Because even though used games may have a few scratches on them, they still work just as well as new games. Wear and tear doesn't really apply to them as it does with the other products you've mentioned.
Wear and tear on a game doesn't apply in the same way to a record, a CD, or a book?
 
Where are you guys making the connection that online passes and DLC=publishers don't want me to be able to sell my games or buy used games anymore? I don't see them trying to shut down Gamestop. I don't' see them trying to pass laws to make used game sales illegal. You are free to buy and sell used games all you want just like you can buy a used house or car or book. Game publishers aren't asking to be any different. Online passes don't stop you from doing that. But just like you have the "right" to sell your games or buy them used, publishers have the "right" to take action to try and incentivize people to buy new.
 

Terrell

Member
Wear and tear on a game doesn't apply in the same way to a record, a CD, or a book?

CDs, yes. But if you're buying a used CD that skips and is rendered unusable, why did you buy it? Digital storage of media is kind of an on-or-off sort of situation. It works or it doesn't.

LPs and books are more fragile and more analogue in their wear-and-tear. Books, for instance, can have pages torn out of them, the print rubs off and fades, etc. which means you're actually MISSING parts of the experience that can NEVER be regained. CDs, DVDs and games can have scratches re-surfaced to make it same as new.
 

Orayn

Member
Listened to the podcast today... It was okay.

Basically, it seems that Jaffe was all about digital download as the future of gaming- Which would be spectacular as a developer but quite honestly a nightmare for the consumer.

It'll get there eventually, too... Only question is when.

My experience on Stream has been anything but a nightmare. I'd hate to see MS or Sony attempt a full-test DD platform like it, though.
 
Wear and tear on a game doesn't apply in the same way to a record, a CD, or a book?

Of course it does. A CD or record can be scratched and become unplayable, that can happen with a game. A book can be damaged as well and become unreadable.

Digital Downloads won't fall prey to DVD scratching but we are talking about console games here.
 
Where are you guys making the connection that online passes and DLC=publishers don't want me to be able to sell my games or buy used games anymore? I don't see them trying to shut down Gamestop. I don't' see them trying to pass laws to make used game sales illegal. You are free to buy and sell used games all you want just like you can buy a used house or car or book. Game publishers aren't asking to be any different. Online passes don't stop you from doing that. But just like you have the "right" to sell your games or buy them used, publishers have the "right" to take action to try and incentivize people to buy new.

There isn't much difference between rewarding new customers and punishing used customers. Well, online passes punish both so nevermind.
 

saunderez

Member
My experience on Steam has been anything but a nightmare.

It's not a nightmare until they find an excuse to ban your account, taking all of your purchased games with it. Steam is purely an Indie Games avenue for me now due to this, I lost an account with hundreds of dollars of games on it and found I had no recourse. And no I wasn't cheating in online games, I don't even play online games on PC. I won't be risking that again so if its > $10 I won't be buying it on Steam.

For this reason alone I'm not welcoming the DD future and buy whatever I can in physical form to prevent this.
 

Maxim726X

Member
My experience on Stream has been anything but a nightmare. I'd hate to see MS or Sony attempt a full-test DD platform like it, though.

Steam has been awesome, but let's not forget that there is competition in the PC realm- Both digitally and physically. I guess it could work if there was more than one place to purchase content, but if this generation is any indication it doesn't look like that's the case... At least yet.
 

Grinchy

Banned
It's not a nightmare until they find an excuse to ban your account, taking all of your purchased games with it. Steam is purely an Indie Games avenue for me now due to this, I lost an account with hundreds of dollars of games on it and found I had no recourse. And no I wasn't cheating in online games, I don't even play online games on PC. I won't be risking that again so if its > $10 I won't be buying it on Steam.

For this reason alone I'm not welcoming the DD future and buy whatever I can in physical form to prevent this.

So then what did you really do to get banned from Steam?
 
Where are you guys making the connection that online passes and DLC=publishers don't want me to be able to sell my games or buy used games anymore? I don't see them trying to shut down Gamestop. I don't' see them trying to pass laws to make used game sales illegal. You are free to buy and sell used games all you want just like you can buy a used house or car or book. Game publishers aren't asking to be any different. Online passes don't stop you from doing that. But just like you have the "right" to sell your games or buy them used, publishers have the "right" to take action to try and incentivize people to buy new.

They pretty much are in the PC space. Almost every major publisher has either signed onto Steamworks or adopted some other non-transferrable account-based DRM (Origin, Uplay, GFWL) that prevents the sale of used games.
 

Card Boy

Banned
So then what did you really do to get banned from Steam?

There are heaps of reasons why someone might get banned from Steam that doesn't involve cheating.

Paypal, Credit card chargebacks, errors, not enough funds. Even if the error is Valves fault they can lock down your account.
 

Brannon

Member
It's not nonsense... it's brilliant.

They've taken advantage of gamers' often irrational brand loyalty and obsession with identifying with developers and publishers, and idolizing game creators. Star power. Fashion.

When people go out shopping for a used fridge, a used car, or second hand furniture, they're not thinking "should I cheat makers of fine new products out of their hard earned money today?"

No, they're thinking "I can't afford to buy new on this," or "let's see if I can find a good deal on used before I buy new".

It's called bargain hunting for fuck's sake. Forget Gamestop. There's things called yard sales.

But, gamers have psychological triggers that can be manipulated due to how fandom works. The industry is trying really hard right now to sell this new tactic and see if they can't use it to patch over their flawed development funding and business models.

It's the very definition of being coachable. And many gamers are very susceptible to it. Let's not forget that many of them will believe tripe like, oh say, 'rumble is last gen'.

They eat it up hard and fast. So it's really no problem for devs and pubs to get a bunch of assholes to actually defend them when they say that hey, it's the used games that are the problem and not our viciously upside down model or rampant copycatting or the fact that we simply will not stand up to the company that is supposed to be the problem in the first place; it's the CONSUMER AND USED GAMES.

The excuses, the defending, the model, the people that believe it.

They are literally retarded.

I am using the word 'literally' correctly.

And I do not apologize for using the word 'retarded'
 

Kinyou

Member
Where are you guys making the connection that online passes and DLC=publishers don't want me to be able to sell my games or buy used games anymore? I don't see them trying to shut down Gamestop. I don't' see them trying to pass laws to make used game sales illegal. You are free to buy and sell used games all you want just like you can buy a used house or car or book. Game publishers aren't asking to be any different. Online passes don't stop you from doing that. But just like you have the "right" to sell your games or buy them used, publishers have the "right" to take action to try and incentivize people to buy new.
I'm not very knowledgeable about the law but I think it would be very, very, very hard to go through the court with this. What's the difference between selling a used game and a used dvd/book/car? Would all the car salesman have to be fired? Yard sales be raided by Cops? I mean that alone would probably make it impossible. Not even to talk about the issue of ownership. Would every product we buy just be lend to us by the companies?
 

Zoe

Member
I'm not very knowledgeable about the law but I think it would be very, very, very hard to go through the court with this. What's the difference between selling a used game and a used dvd/book/car? Would all the car salesman have to be fired? Yard sales be raided by Cops? I mean that alone would probably make it impossible. Not even to talk about the issue of ownership. Would every product we buy just be lend to us by the companies?

The Supreme Court has already affirmed software makers the right to prohibit resales through their license agreements.
 
The Supreme Court has already affirmed software makers the right to prohibit resales through their license agreements.
No they haven't. The only case that has made it that far is Autodesk v. Vernor, and SCOTUS didn't take it, and there is contradictory precedent in other districts.
 

Bruiserk

Member
I'm planning to check this out tomorrow on my way to class. I feel like I already know what Jaffe's opinion is going to be, but not Sterling's.
 

TUROK

Member
My experience on Steam has been anything but a nightmare. I'd hate to see MS or Sony attempt a full-test DD platform like it, though.
Today, Steam would not let me log on, saying it couldn't detect an internet connection. I tried a few things to try to fix it, but no dice. I asked some people if Steam was down, but it was working fine for them. Then, just a few hours later it starts working again on its own.

Is it a nightmare? Not really. Do I wish I didn't have to deal with it? Yeah, I really do. I miss the days of Xfire. Way less hassles with getting online.
 

malfcn

Member
Here is my take on the whole thing:

X: Hey guys, you are killing us by not buying new, full-priced games with stripped content that we charge extra for to make even moar money.
C: Yah, I will just buy the game used or wait for a sale in a month and get all the content for a fraction of the cost.

Most of the time, day one buyers are punished. I know that in most cases early adopters get the shaft, but gamers get it hard.

Day 01: $60 + $10 (DLC in a Month, or Day 1)
Day 30: $30-40 (New or used, Sale) + $10 DLC (or even discounted)

Developers/Publishers try to hype up gamers by "rewarding" Day 1 buyers with retailer exclusives etc. and then caste hate on rational buyers that wait 30-60 days. Most of the time retailer DLC is worthless, or can be bought for an insignificant price that still makes the cost less than a new Day 1 purchase.

This is making me reconsider my ME3 N7CE order..
It is why I didn't buy Assassin's Creed: Revelations right away. Within a week or two it was already $40 or less..and NEW.

If they expect gamers to continue to purchase new, they need to actually deliver some meaningful content for the price, or charge less.

And the Ubi port to the Vita that went from $0.99 to $40 is another disgusting example..
 
Because even though used games may have a few scratches on them, they still work just as well as new games. Wear and tear doesn't really apply to them as it does with the other products you've mentioned.

Outside of collector reasons games depreciate over time, like everything else. Especially if the game -sucks-!
 

Kinyou

Member
I'd just like to note that instead of "Jim Sterling vs David Jaffe" the description "Jim Sterling and David Jaffe stroking each others ego-cocks" would probably have been more accurate. The insider views Jaffe gave were really quite interesting though.
 

TUROK

Member
Outside of collector reasons games depreciate over time, like everything else. Especially if the game -sucks-!
Monetary value is different from physical wear and tear. Do you have to perform maintenance on a used game like you do a used car?
 
I really don't get why this is such a big argument among videogame fans. Games are becoming increasing expensive and difficult to develop and the people responsible for making them need to do everything they can to increase their revenue. If the inclusion of an online pass in anyway contributes to Jaffe or Eat Sleep Play having more time and resources to put into future titles, and this results in higher quality games, then at the end of the day the online pass is fucking outstanding in my books.
 
Monetary value is different from physical wear and tear. Do you have to perform maintenance on a used game like you do a used car?

The used games market shows that is irrelevent in ppls buying decisions. I don't even know why it keeps being bought up.
 
Your reply to Machine was very clear, he merely asked why are game devs/publishers magically exempt from having their products on the used market and you replied "because of wear and tear." None of that factors in ppls buying decisions.
 

wcw

Neo Member
I don't hate on the developer for putting in online passes. Its their right to try to curb used sales any reasonable way they can or try to get a kickback off of online passes. But at the same time its the right of a consumer to wait for price drops, buy used, or borrow stuff from their friends.

Personally there are some games I don't buy because I wasn't able to borrow a copy from my friend and play online. So I waited till the game was cheap or bought it used. Other times I wanted the game day one no matter what even if they made me use an online pass.
 

TUROK

Member
Your reply to Machine was very clear, he merely asked why are game devs/publishers magically exempt from having their products on the used market and you replied "because of wear and tear." None of that factors in ppls buying decisions.
Uh... Yeah, that's the point I'm making. "Wear and tear" don't factor in to used games like they do with other products, which is why the makers of other products don't mind the secondhand market, but with video games, there's no difference between buying a new game that came out a month ago vs buying the same game used. There's no incentive to buy new when the used is just as good, which is why online passes exist. There's incentive to buying a new book vs a used one, or a new car vs an old one.
 

jimi_dini

Member
If a publisher is seeing zero/minimal margins, there will be nothing to return to the developer.

Hmm
In cases like Pandemic, the developer was closed down before their (last) game's release date. Go figure.

If the developer isn't getting enough return, they're going to go under. If the developer goes under, there will be no one to create your game.

And if you screw enough with the customer, there won't be one left to buy your game
on release date
.

Single-Player "online" passes screw around with the actual customers only - just like copy-protection. Pirates still get the full game and they don't pay a dime. Of course, pirates never wanted to pay for your game at any time, so people say it doesn't matter. Maybe that's the hidden goal of those online passes?
 
Uh... Yeah, that's the point I'm making. "Wear and tear" don't factor in to used games like they do with other products, which is why the makers of other products don't mind the secondhand market, but with video games, there's no difference between buying a new game that came out a month ago vs buying the same game used. There's no incentive to buy new when the used is just as good, which is why online passes exist. There's incentive to buying a new book vs a used one, or a new car vs an old one.

The "wear and tear" argument is not why Online Passes exist. It's a reaction to places like Gamestop making an entire industry out of the used market which devs feel is getting out of hand. It is historically accepted the online portion of a game is part of the original purchase. That means if you sell the game to someone else or if you keep playing the multiplayer component all year-round yourself it's still only one person using it. What difference does it make? No server costs arguments if the games online portion is peer-to-peer which I believe is how most console games operate.

Going back to Machines point on "wear and tear" it's a logical disconnect and the convoluted rationale. Besides there IS wear and tear on the hardware to play it on. What happens when a console is no longer manufactured?
 

TUROK

Member
The "wear and tear" argument is not why Online Passes exist. It's a reaction to places like Gamestop making an entire industry out of the used market which devs feel is getting out of hand. It is historically accepted the online portion of a game is part of the original purchase. That means if you sell the game to someone else or if you keep playing the multiplayer component all year-round yourself it's still only one person using it. What difference does it make? No server costs arguments if the games online portion is peer-to-peer which I believe is how most console games operate.

Going back to Machines point on "wear and tear" it's a logical disconnect and the convoluted rationale. Besides there IS wear and tear on the hardware to play it on. What happens when a console is no longer manufactured?
Holy crap... You are dense. The reason the "wear and tear" argument got brought up in the first place is because people were wondering why other industries weren't complaining about used product sales. Products from other industries have incentive for buying new because there is no wear and tear on those products. The game industry is including online passes to create incentive to buy new. A invalid online pass is the digital equivalent of wear and tear.

Most console games use a client-server model, but that's besides the point. Take 343 Industries into account. They may not use dedicated servers to host games, but they do have servers to store information about playlists, rankings, and all those stats that are saved, so it's not like the online isn't costing them nothing.

What does it matter if a console is still being manufactured or not? I have no idea what that has to do with games having online passes (online passes that you can purchase for like 10 measly bucks, too). Do you hear Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft bitching about the sale of used consoles? No.
 
Holy crap... You are dense. The reason the "wear and tear" argument got brought up in the first place is because people were wondering why other industries weren't complaining about used product sales.

You said that's why online passes exist (because used is just as good). I even bolded what I was replying to. . . I believe you are the dense one here. Online passes exist not because of "wear and tear" like you claim. It's because of places like Gamestop and devs reacting to it. If a publisher has a problem, it shouldn't be with the concept of "wear and tear" on used games sales, but with the practice of retailers pushing used sales more than new in the first, say, 30 to 60 days of a game's release.

Go and read back some posts

"
Not even the movie or music industries had to contend with a national chain/cartel of stores selling used content, the used market was all independent or niche retailers. You also very rarely saw those retailers selling new products in the same location, drawing people into the allure of buying used over new and using new release content as a lure for their primary business.
"

If the movie and music industries using disc based formats aren't complaining than "wear and tear" isn't why any of this is happening.

What does it matter if a console is still being manufactured or not? I have no idea what that has to do with games having online passes (online passes that you can purchase for like 10 measly bucks, too).

Because the topic was the "wear and tear" rationale you bought up. The "wear and tear" argument doesn't hold up if the exclusive hardware will eventually break down. Can't buy new xbox 1's nowadays, but you can still get new cd/dvd players.

Most console games use a client-server model, but that's besides the point. Take 343 Industries into account. They may not use dedicated servers to host games, but they do have servers to store information about playlists, rankings, and all those stats that are saved, so it's not like the online isn't costing them nothing.

The only ppl who think leaderboards should be an additional cost are devs and their corporate apologists. If you believe a dev cannot launch with such basic support for these games without an additional fee then Sony and their PSN are in big trouble.
 
You're trying to change his point. He's saying the wear and tear argument was brought up because people were asking why the games used market is different from any other (ie cars/books/music/movies). Simple as that.

Did you read the bolded section where he says "which is why online passes exist". Or am I the one here with a reading comprehension problem?

Also the used games market is not different. The only difference between that and music/films is places like Gamestop that devs believe has gotten out of hand. The wear and tear argument is just a poor justification and not a real reason.
 
Did you read the bolded section where he says "which is why online passes exist". Or am I the one here with a reading comprehension problem?

Also the used games market is not different. The only difference between that and music/films is places like Gamestop that devs believe has gotten out of hand. The wear and tear argument is just a poor justification and not a real reason.
EDITED TO CLARIFY:

Obviously the used games market is the reason this is being implemented. I'm saying (and I assume he's trying to tell you) that you're lending too much weight to that particular statement because of the way it's phrased and that he's trying to explain WHY the used game market is different from other used markets with the "wear and tear" factor. Again "wear and tear" is a FACTOR that makes it different from things like books/cars/refrigerators. As it had been stated many times here, the market is different from music/films because of points of revenue.

MrNyarlathotep explained it pretty well:

...
Games cost a lot of time and money to make, but what they are actually selling you is an experience. Just like a movie.

Because they are selling an experience, there is an inherent value in having that experience early; being able to talk about that experience while it is still fresh with others, like a movie.

Now, a movie, unlike a game, has 3 points of audience.
It has the cinema showing - the closest equivalent to this would be a demo or a beta for a game. A finite chance to have that experience in a manner that is presented to you, but that you do not have much control over. Some people like a movie so much, they will see it multiple times at the theatre, paying for the experiencde each time, in the same way that some people will enjoy a demo so much they will play it over and over, despite the experience not usually radically changing or expanding beyond the initial experience.

Films second point of audience is the rental market. This is a much more user controlled experience; they can rewatch scenes, set up their viewing how they want, and they can treat it as though they own it, but for a finite amount of time.
A single rental copy will pass through many peoples hands, which is why stores that rent movies pay a far higher price for each copy than the cost of the later 'sell to consumer' price point; because for many people, they finite time they have to own the experience is enough for them.

The third point of audience is the purchase stage. This is the user having whatever experience they want, for as long as they want. They are also free to sell that experience on to someone else, because by the time this stage has occurred, the majority of the audience has already had opportunity to enjoy the experience at either of the first two stages, and the producers of the experience have already made the majority of their revenue - this is the long tail of revenue for their product.

The important difference here is that games actually have one point of audience. People will treat this audience point under any combination of the above three audience points; some people will treat it as a 'cinema showing', go through the single play campaign under the time limit they have set themselves, and then trade it back in to pick up soemthing else.

Some people will treat it as a rental, blaze through the singleplayer, do a bit of multiplayer for a week, then trade it back in.

Some people will treat it as a purchase, and keep it and play at their leisure over a much longer period.

The problem is, the people treating a game as either of the first two audience points are diminsihing overall sales, because each new copy will pass through multiple peoples hands, but the game shops who push for the used market pay no more for a copy that they treat like that than they do for a copy they are intending to 'sell' as with the third audience point example.

So the shop will make multiple revenues on a single copy, where the creators of that product only make one revenue, and every revenue after the first prevents an additional 'as new' sale.

This is the exact reason why movie rental 'first copies' are extremely expensive to purchase; so that the rental store and the publisher can both see some of that repeat revenue in a fairer manner (a new release rental DVD will cost over $100 for the rental store to purchase, with the expectancy that each rental DVD is rented to at least 10 people).

So this is why publishers are initiating things like project ten dollar; because their point of sale is the only way they can make revenue, and the used market might as well be called the 'stealth rental' market, because the retailer gets all of the revenue from multiple sales of a single copy of a product, the 'rinse and repeat' consumers get to - effectively - rent new titles, but the publisher (and the developers) don't see any revenues beyond that first sale.

...are you actually attempting to argue the degradation of a disk containing data (which is not in fact the thing you have purchased) is equivalent to the mechnical wear and tear of a car?

I'll add that music also has multiple points of revenue as well (cd/radio/live ticket sales/licensing) all of which a record company or artist could take a cut depending on the contract.
 
Obviously the used games market is the reason this is being implemented.

Well we agree. I actually mentioned this many times. If this is the reason then he has no basis to claim "wear and tear" -is the reason- and if that is not what he is saying perhaps he should phrase his sentences better. I can only reply to what is typed.

If someone tries to tell the the difference between something that is beside the point it's going off on a tangent. It's not the reason why Online Passes are being implemented.

Go back and look at Machines post. Do you agree with him that "wear and tear" is a logical disconnect and the convoluted rationale to justify devs being entitled to a further cut after initial point of sale? Multiplayer is historically part of the initial sale. If you sell it or use it all year round, it is still only one person using it.

Again "wear and tear" is a FACTOR that makes it different from things like books/cars/refrigerators.

Sure it's different from a car. So? That's not why Online Passes exist. So why keep repeating the same thing over and over again when it is beside the point as you have already agreed?

Also factor in this, there is "wear and tear" on the time-exclusive hardware to play it on. So it is tied to something that does "wear and tear". Can't buy new xbox 1's nowadays.

Since you are so keen to speak for him do you agree with him on additional fees for storing data such as leaderboards and stats? He seems to have conveniently left the debate. I guess you're gonna tell me that he wasn't defending it in any way, meant something different and just phrased it poorly right?
 
If someone tries to tell the the difference between something that is beside the point it's going off on a tangent. It's not the reason why Online Passes are being implemented.

Go back and look at Machines post. Do you agree with him that "wear and tear" is a logical disconnect and the convoluted rationale to justify devs being entitled to a further cut after initial point of sale? Multiplayer is historically part of the initial sale. If you sell it or use it all year round, it is still only one person using it.

Since when? There wasn't much online multiplayer last gen on consoles and basically this is the first gen they have done so on a large scale. And to the point of attrition, the effects are normally felt for longer than a single year.



Also factor in this, there is "wear and tear" on the time-exclusive hardware to play it on. So it is tied to something that does "wear and tear". Can't buy new xbox 1's nowadays.

Since you are so keen to speak for him do you agree with him on additional fees for storing data such as leaderboards and stats? He seems to have conveniently left the debate. I guess you're gonna tell me that he wasn't defending it in any way, meant something different and just phrased it poorly right?

Whatever wear and tear you suffer on your console is not the fault of the pubs. I know people to this day that have working atari's so that part is in the hands of the owners and is not a factor in the discussion when talking about most games.
 
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