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Yeef
Member
(08-29-2017, 11:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by SigmasonicX

* MaRo's claim that vehicles worked best with other vehicles doesn't seem right, given that even Mardu Vehicles ended up only using one vehicle type.

Design doesn't care [much] about comptetive Standard.

Also, he didn't say that vehicles work well with other vehicles; he said that vehicle decks were all-in on vehicles (with cards like Depala and Veteran Motorist) or running none at all. They'd expected them to show up in non-vehicle decks here and there.

To be fair, plenty of non-vehicle decks ran vehicles, but only for the busted vehicles (Heart of Kiran and Copter) and as sideboard slots (Skysoveign and Aethersphere Harvester).
kirblar
Member
(08-29-2017, 11:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by aidan

Strictly for the purposes of reprints, I'm disappointed that Fatal Push was printed with Revolt, rather than being templated like Life Goes On. Even reprinting it in a Core or Masters set means that they'll have to revisit Revolt, which they're unlikely to do.

Not the case. It's an ability word, not an ability. They can and will print cards like this without the italics if the future set isn't using the parent mechanic.
charlequin
is not aware of current grape prices
(08-29-2017, 11:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by bigkrev

Enrage very much feels like a small set mechanic that a year from now Maro will appologize for in State of Design

Nah, I think it's a bit broader than that. Afflict fits that kind of niche because it just does one kinda boring thing and doesn't have much meat to it. Enrage is one of those weirdly broad ability words but it's one that can have a bunch of neat effects attached to it, at least.

Originally Posted by Familienoberhauptvogel

Explore sounds a bit like Clash execution wise which ended up being terrible not just because you let your opponent scry but because it's cumbersome.

Clash was a lot of work to get a small benefit that your opponent also got. The payoff matrix on this is a lot better.

Originally Posted by OnPoint

But the market can't keep up like this, can it?

Within the next two years either the Reserved List is in some meaningful sense gone or we'll see a price floor of $10 for Reserved cards and $50 for ones anyone cares about. Double those if we go another year or two out.

Originally Posted by SigmasonicX

* Surprised to see that fabricate was popular enough to be listed as a successful mechanic.

Fabricate was a great limited mechanic without actually bothering anyone otherwise.

* Interesting that the lack of synergy between mechanics was a deliberate choice for Amonkhet.

I told everyone this when the set was getting spoiled, so I am glad to see I was broadly correct about it.

Originally Posted by kirblar

Not the case. It's an ability word, not an ability. They can and will print cards like this without the italics if the future set isn't using the parent mechanic.

Hmmm. I've seen them go the other way (Phosphorescent Feast had Chroma added to the card when it was reprinted in Eventide) but I can't think of an example where they went the other way.

Regardless, being an ability word the barrier is lower than a full keyword. Even if they enforce their rules about frequency in Masters sets on ability words there are still tons of places to easily reprint a card like this like Commander sets, Duel Decks, etc.
Imperfected
Member
(08-29-2017, 11:55 PM)
Are there even any cards that specifically care about Revolt for it to matter whether or not it has the keyword in place of generic templating? I want to say there aren't.
aidan
Hugo Award Winning Author and Editor
(08-29-2017, 11:56 PM)

Originally Posted by kirblar

Not the case. It's an ability word, not an ability. They can and will print cards like this without the italics if the future set isn't using the parent mechanic.

I'm very pleased to be wrong about that. Thanks for clarifying.

Originally Posted by Imperfected

Are there even any cards that specifically care about Revolt for it to matter whether or not it has the keyword in place of generic templating? I want to say there aren't.

I just read up on ability words, and they are specifically non-rules related. A card cannot reference Revolt in its rules text.

Ability words have no rules meaning, but exist to name and flavorfully link otherwise unnamed mechanics. Like flavor text, ability words are italicized. Because they have no rules meaning, and are not listed in the Comprehensive Rules, ability words are never referenced on other cards.

Source
Yeef
Member
(08-29-2017, 11:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by kirblar

Not the case. It's an ability word, not an ability. They can and will print cards like this without the italics if the future set isn't using the parent mechanic.

This remains to be seen. They've added ability words to oracle in the past (like with Domain), but my understanding is that the jury is still out on removing ability words.

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post...lly-rules-text

[EDIT]

Originally Posted by Imperfected

Are there even any cards that specifically care about Revolt for it to matter whether or not it has the keyword in place of generic templating? I want to say there aren't.

No. The whole point of ability words is that they have no rules meanings; they're just tags to help players grok non-keyworded abilities.
Firemind
Member
(08-29-2017, 11:58 PM)
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Vehicles basically have the same issue as equipment. Make it subpar and it's unplayable. Make it too good and it's overpowered.

Vehicles were a mistake. It's nothing but trash.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
(08-30-2017, 12:09 AM)
Going back to the GDS discussion a bit. I liked Jund DS way more, that deck did new things. It relied on delirium, it played tar fire, it splashed white or sometimes blue and was just much, much fairer.

Also fish had way more game, I felt favoured in that MU.

Originally Posted by charlequin

Clash was a lot of work to get a small benefit that your opponent also got. The payoff matrix on this is a lot better.

That'swhy I added in exectuion. You're doing a lot of fluff for what's going to be a common creature keyword.

Originally Posted by Yeef

Design doesn't care [much] about comptetive Standard.

Also, he didn't say that vehicles work well with other vehicles; he said that vehicle decks were all-in on vehicles (with cards like Depala and Veteran Motorist) or running none at all. They'd expected them to show up in non-vehicle decks here and there.

To be fair, plenty of non-vehicle decks ran vehicles, but only for the busted vehicles (Heart of Kiran and Copter) and as sideboard slots (Skysoveign and Aethersphere Harvester).

Eh that was the unrefined version, the non busted vehicles just got hardly played in the end.
charlequin
is not aware of current grape prices
(08-30-2017, 12:34 AM)
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Originally Posted by Familienoberhauptvogel

That'swhy I added in exectuion.

The execution doesn't wind up anywhere near clash because it's less work and better results.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
(08-30-2017, 12:43 AM)

Originally Posted by charlequin

The execution doesn't wind up anywhere near clash because it's less work and better results.

Did I not say "a bit like clash"? Clearly clash was worse since it added on top of doing the whole reveal, check, think about scry that the other person had to do the same and that the reward varied with each card.

Explore is similar in having to do a lot of things, reveal, check, think about scry for a to be determined how good reward.

Some of the clash cards had great rewards. This one for instance has a free buyback, always wanted to try this in EDH

Farside
Member
(08-30-2017, 12:52 AM)
Sorry to derail the thread from Ixalan discussion, but I am flipping through the new Vmpire Commander deck and have a question about tokens.

Are this placed in your library at the start of the game, or not? Are they considered part of the 100 card needed to play Commander?
Firemind
Member
(08-30-2017, 12:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by Farside

Sorry to derail the thread from Ixalan discussion, but I am flipping through the new Vmpire Commander deck and have a question about tokens.

Are this placed in your library at the start of the game, or not? Are they considered part of the 100 card needed to play Commander?

No not at all. Tokens are seperate cards. They also don't go to the graveyard but they will trigger die triggers before getting exiled.
Farside
Member
(08-30-2017, 12:55 AM)

Originally Posted by Firemind

No not at all. Tokens are seperate cards. They also don't go to the graveyard but they will trigger die triggers.

So I keep them separate and then use them whenever a card states create token creature? And thanks for the response.
SigmasonicX
Member
(08-30-2017, 12:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by Farside

So I keep them separate and then use them whenever a card states create token creature? And thanks for the response.

You don't even have to use those cards; you can use dice or a post-it note to represent tokens if you want.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
(08-30-2017, 01:01 AM)
If Jace ends up near bulk price I'm gonna buy 3 to use 2 as tokens for EDH
Ashodin
Member
(08-30-2017, 01:01 AM)
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Originally Posted by Farside

So I keep them separate and then use them whenever a card states create token creature? And thanks for the response.

Yep, correct
noquarter
Member
(08-30-2017, 01:01 AM)
Wow, didn't get any of the commander decks last year, but surprised by how many rates are in these, at least the Vampire deck, a third of the deck is rare. Yes, the bulk are just that, bulk rates, but still nice to see rarity didn't effect them on building a deck that much.

Originally Posted by Farside

So I keep them separate and then use them whenever a card states create token creature? And thanks for the response.

Correct. Just have them wherever you would place counters that aren't being used and put them in the play area when they enter the battlefield.

Looks like I'll be able to hit GP DC on Friday and Saturday. Looking forward to playing some Modern and trading in some stuff I have laying around. Haven't played Standard in years, so won't be doing the main event.
blindrocket
Member
(08-30-2017, 01:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by Farside

So I keep them separate and then use them whenever a card states create token creature? And thanks for the response.

Correct!
Farside
Member
(08-30-2017, 01:05 AM)
Thanks to everyone for the token responses... much appreciated.

Originally Posted by noquarter

Wow, didn't get any of the commander decks last year, but surprised by how many rates are in these, at least the Vampire deck, a third of the deck is rare. Yes, the bulk are just that, bulk rates, but still nice to see rarity didn't effect them on building a deck that much.

Yeah, I think I made the right choice buying that one--so many cool cards. I was also thinking about getting the Arcane deck to switch black cards into the Vampire deck.
Santiako
Member
(08-30-2017, 01:42 AM)
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Originally Posted by Familienoberhauptvogel

Going back to the GDS discussion a bit. I liked Jund DS way more, that deck did new things. It relied on delirium, it played tar fire, it splashed white or sometimes blue and was just much, much fairer.

Also fish had way more game, I felt favoured in that MU.

The Jund/4c version felt just like a refinement of the classic Jund imo. Of course the Grixis version just feels like a refinement of the Delver decks. They are kind of boring but really effective decks :p
Imperfected
Member
(08-30-2017, 02:06 AM)
The vampire and dragon decks are both a lot of rares, but they're sort of fortunate in that there are dragon and vampire rares that are very good in those decks (Captivating Vampire, Dark Impostor, Utvara Hellkite, etc.) that aren't expensive cards.

They're still missing a few obvious keystones due to price (some Dragonlords, Lord of Lineage) or the fact they're still available in-print (newer Kalitas and Drana), obviously, but most of the really good vamps and dragons have just never been terribly expensive.

I wonder if that's why they decided not to do Angels or Demons. An Angels deck probably wouldn't have been very good without going above their expected market value, and I think Demons might clock in a little high on the card value curve, too.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
(08-30-2017, 02:12 AM)

Originally Posted by Santiako

The Jund/4c version felt just like a refinement of the classic Jund imo. Of course the Grixis version just feels like a refinement of the Delver decks. They are kind of boring but really effective decks :p

GDS doesn't tar fire themselves regularly is why they are boring compared to jund. They don't durdle to get Delirium either.

Way too efficient.
Boogalogist
Member
(08-30-2017, 02:22 AM)
Just saw this expansion for the first time. Wow...pirates and dinosaurs! Awesome that they bring back some under represented or new types.

Gonna keep a watch on this one.

What's with pirate Jace? He's so....un-Jace like. What's the story behind it?
Ashodin
Member
(08-30-2017, 02:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by Boogalogist

Just saw this expansion for the first time. Wow...pirates and dinosaurs! Awesome that they bring back some under represented or new types.

Gonna keep a watch on this one.

What's with pirate Jace? He's so....un-Jace like. What's the story behind it?

At the end of Hour of Devastation (the previous set), Nicol Bolas has defeated the Gatewatch (the combo of Jace, Liliana, Gideon, Nissa, and Chandra). Each planeswalked away in reflex (except Liliana) and this is where Jace ended up. Whether of his own accord or something else sinister about Ixalan (supposedly Planeswalkers that end up here cannot planeswalk away), who knows.
Joe Molotov
(08-30-2017, 02:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by Boogalogist

What's with pirate Jace? He's so....un-Jace like. What's the story behind it?

Explosive Amnesia
Ashodin
Member
(08-30-2017, 02:34 AM)
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It's also heavily rumored that Jace has lost his memories of everything he was since Alhammarret mindfucked him

Which would be AWESOME.
charlequin
is not aware of current grape prices
(08-30-2017, 02:37 AM)
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Originally Posted by Familienoberhauptvogel

Did I not say "a bit like clash"?

I guess my point is that I don't think the comparison tells us much about how explore plays or how good it'll be.

Originally Posted by Farside

Sorry to derail the thread from Ixalan discussion

No worries. We refresh the thread for each main expansion, but it's intended to be a general discussion.
Imperfected
Member
(08-30-2017, 02:44 AM)
If people weren't constantly derailing the thread with talk about some silly card game we might finally solve the mystery of Jace's missing nipple.
Ashodin
Member
(08-30-2017, 03:01 AM)
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confirmation

Originally Posted by MaRo

minoke5618 asked: Treasure Cove's frame... was that the frame that the Ixalan Masterpieces were going to use before they were scrapped?

Yes, it was.

Aww yiss
aidan
Hugo Award Winning Author and Editor
(08-30-2017, 03:32 AM)

Originally Posted by Imperfected

If people weren't constantly derailing the thread with talk about some silly card game we might finally solve the mystery of Jace's missing nipple.

We all know these threads exist with one purpose: to discuss whether Stoneforge Mystic should be unbanned in Modern.
Santiako
Member
(08-30-2017, 03:44 AM)
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Originally Posted by Familienoberhauptvogel

GDS doesn't tar fire themselves regularly is why they are boring compared to jund. They don't durdle to get Delirium either.

Way too efficient.

Well, yeah, that's why it's the better deck :p

Originally Posted by aidan

We all know these threads exist with one purpose: to discuss whether Stoneforge Mystic should be unbanned in Modern.

Imperfected
Member
(08-30-2017, 03:45 AM)

Originally Posted by aidan

We all know these threads exist with one purpose: to discuss whether Stoneforge Mystic should be unbanned in Modern.

Are you telling me you're holding Jace's nipple hostage and demanding a SFM unban before you will release it?

You monster.
Ashodin
Member
(08-30-2017, 03:50 AM)
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Jace's nipple is hiding behind his clothes, like yours probably are right now
Imperfected
Member
(08-30-2017, 04:39 AM)

Originally Posted by Ashodin

Jace's nipple is hiding behind his clothes, like yours probably are right now

I'm afraid you've vastly overestimated me.
Ashodin
Member
(08-30-2017, 04:44 AM)
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You don't have nipples?
Imperfected
Member
(08-30-2017, 04:47 AM)

Originally Posted by Ashodin

You don't have nipples?

No, but I GAF topless.

Anyway, for all the ado about the rares being spoiled I have to say it seems like they've squirreled away more interest cards and mechanics at uncommon this set than usual, anyway. There's a fair number I'd expect to be rare normally, including that solid tribal land and the big butts dino.

Crisis averted?
Justin
Member
(08-30-2017, 04:54 AM)
There still are around 200 cards to reveal. I guess they will just strech out that last chunk of 40 or 50 they usually put up on the last day over the course of a week.

I'm most interested in the rest of the flip cards. If they really are all flip lands then it will be interesting to see what they do since I can't really think for 9 other effects for them.

If they follow a similar setup as treasure map what are some other things they could do? I was thinking one that created zombies when flipped but we know there are no zombie tokens in the set.
Ashodin
Member
(08-30-2017, 04:59 AM)
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I'm excited for WB Vampire Tokens, so much so that I might make it my standard deck and switch from Boros to Orzhov for a while.
Imperfected
Member
(08-30-2017, 05:03 AM)
I would be super excited for vampires if Gatewatch and Innistrad weren't rotating.

As it stands I'm just sort of depressed, though at least the token generator vamp might be good in Edgar Markov.

I'm going to be even more sad if the lack of continued support completely kills off zombies, which seems pretty likely considering all that deck's losing.
Santiako
Member
(08-30-2017, 05:05 AM)
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I'm really intrigued about Rassmusen's quote "some fantastic reprints you probably didn't see coming." Cursecatcher and Spreading Seas would be nice.

Originally Posted by Ashodin

I'm excited for WB Vampire Tokens, so much so that I might make it my standard deck and switch from Boros to Orzhov for a while.

You'll go back to Boros as soon as you see the RW planeswalker and you know it :p
Ashodin
Member
(08-30-2017, 05:18 AM)
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Can we talk about how this is a gun



It's a harpoon gun

The person is even using modern military rifle stance.
aidan
Hugo Award Winning Author and Editor
(08-30-2017, 05:23 AM)

Originally Posted by Santiako

I'm really intrigued about Rassmusen's quote "some fantastic reprints you probably didn't see coming."

Imperfected
Member
(08-30-2017, 05:26 AM)
I dunno, on top of being a Rogue I think Invisible Stalker would be pretty unlikely due to the fact they're trying to pitch Daring Saboteur as a desirable 1U Rare.
SigmasonicX
Member
(08-30-2017, 05:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by Santiako

I'm really intrigued about Rassmusen's quote "some fantastic reprints you probably didn't see coming."

HK-47
Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
(08-30-2017, 05:32 AM)
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Originally Posted by Familienoberhauptvogel

GDS doesn't tar fire themselves regularly is why they are boring compared to jund. They don't durdle to get Delirium either.

Way too efficient.

I'm starting to feel your beef with gds is entirely around it causing a bad metagame for fish
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
(08-30-2017, 05:36 AM)
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Also the fact that they stopped printing cheap creatures with Hexproof years ago.
aidan
Hugo Award Winning Author and Editor
(08-30-2017, 05:36 AM)

Originally Posted by Imperfected

I dunno, on top of being a Rogue I think Invisible Stalker would be pretty unlikely due to the fact they're trying to pitch Daring Saboteur as a desirable 1U Rare.

Originally Posted by Angry Grimace

Also the fact that they stopped printing cheap creatures with Hexproof years ago.

I guess you didn't see the joke coming, either.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
(08-30-2017, 05:37 AM)
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Originally Posted by aidan

I guess you didn't see the joke coming, either.

That probably means there was a problem with the joke
Imperfected
Member
(08-30-2017, 05:41 AM)

Originally Posted by aidan

I guess you didn't see the joke coming, either.

I don't mean to take the wind out of your sails, but I don't do puns.
Ashodin
Member
(08-30-2017, 05:48 AM)
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Originally Posted by Angry Grimace

That probably means there was a problem with the joke

Didn't see coming? invisible stalker?

He's a genius guys

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