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Inside Playstation 4 Pro: How sony made the first 4k games console

P

PackAPunchedMick

Member
Mark Cerny said:
The tech session with Mark Cerny was signposted as far back as the PlayStation Meeting at the beginning of September, and it didn't fail to deliver a treasure trove of new information on the hardware make-up of the new machine and the ethos behind it. The highlights are as follows.

Additional 1GB of DDR3 RAM - used to swap out non-games apps (eg Netflix) from the 8GB of GDDR5

512MB available to developers for 4K render targets and framebuffers

Another 512MB utilised for handling a 4K version of the dynamic menu front-end

New ID buffer for tracking triangles and objects, opening the door to advanced spatial and temporal anti-aliasing

4K framebuffers either created from simpler geometry-only rendering or more advanced checkerboarding

Some developers - eg the developers of Spider-Man and For Honor - producing their own 4K techniques based on four million pixel framebuffers

Double the compute units, laid out like a mirror of the original PS4's GPU. Half the CUs deactivate when running in base PS4 mode

2.13GHz CPU and 911MHz GPU in Pro mode, running at 1.6GHz and 800MHz respectively in base PS4 mode in order to lock back-compat with the standard model

AMD Polaris energy efficiency improvements enabling more power in a console form factor

Delta colour compression technology arrives in PS4 Pro, maximising memory bandwidth. Not seen in PS4

Primitive discard accelerator culls triangles from the scene that aren't visible

Enhanced 16-bit half-float support

Improvements for running multiple wavefronts on the compute units - more work per CU

New features from AMD roadmap - the ability to run two FP16 operations concurrently instead of one FP32, plus the integration of a work scheduler for increased efficiency

Advanced multi-resolution support for increased performance in VR titles
Click to expand...

More here http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...tation-4-pro-how-sony-made-a-4k-games-machine

Great read from Eurogamer.

An extra gigabyte of ram? was this already known?
 
S

SunDimension24

Member
"2.13GHz CPU and 911MHz GPU in Pro mode, running at 1.6GHz and 800MHz respectively in base PS4 mode in order to lock back-compat with the standard model"

Well at least we got an answer for that now
 
M

madmook

Member
Damn, why can't they let old games use the extra horsepower automatically, like XB1 S. Must be some sort of technical hassle. I'm just thinking of how PCs work where if you have more power you'd just get a higher framerate, and the game wouldn't otherwise be affected.
 
O

Ozorov

Member
UnitedImpureAlaskajingle.gif
 
Alx

Alx

Member
When are you supposed to run "base PS4 mode" ? Is it only forced for online multiplayer to even the ground, or is it an option you could activate on your own (for whatever reason) ?
 
S

SunDimension24

Member
Alx said:
When are you supposed to run "base PS4 mode" ? Is it only forced for online multiplayer to even the ground, or is it an option you could activate on your own (for whatever reason) ?
Click to expand...

base PS4 would just kick in for any game that does not get a PS4 pro patch and utilize the full power of the system (i.e. Witcher 3).
 
B

Behlel

Member
Alx said:
When are you supposed to run "base PS4 mode" ? Is it only forced for online multiplayer to even the ground, or is it an option you could activate on your own (for whatever reason) ?
Click to expand...
It's for the game that will not be patched like bloodborne lol
 
S

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Alx said:
When are you supposed to run "base PS4 mode" ? Is it only forced for online multiplayer to even the ground, or is it an option you could activate on your own (for whatever reason) ?
Click to expand...

I imagine in cases where

A) it's an older game with no "Pro" mode. Game will look and run identical to PS4.

B) game performance is somehow worse in pro mode dude to asset or resolution bump
 
V

vivekTO

Member
SunDimension24 said:
"2.13GHz CPU and 911MHz GPU in Pro mode, running at 1.6GHz and 800MHz respectively in base PS4 mode in order to lock back-compat with the standard model"

Well at least we got an answer for that now
Click to expand...

The Limitation is due to multiplayer supporting games , I think so.
 
K

Killthee

helped a brotha out on multiple separate occasions!
madmook said:
Damn, why can't they let old games use the extra horsepower automatically, like XB1 S. Must be some sort of technical hassle. I'm just thinking of how PCs work where if you have more power you'd just get a higher framerate, and the game wouldn't otherwise be affected.
Click to expand...
They touch on it in the article, they prioritized smooth interoperability over automatic performance improvements:

But what about deploying the additional Pro GPU power in base PS4 mode, similar to the Xbox One S? Or even just retaining the 111MHz GPU frequency boost? For Sony, it's all about playing it safe, to ensure that the existing 700 titles just work.

"I've done a number of experiments looking for issues when frequencies vary and... well... [laughs] I think first and foremost, we need everything to work flawlessly. We don't want people to be conscious of any issues that may arise when they move from the standard model to the PS4 Pro."
Click to expand...
 
M

Maztorre

Member
madmook said:
Damn, why can't they let old games use the extra horsepower automatically, like XB1 S. Must be some sort of technical hassle. I'm just thinking of how PCs work where if you have more power you'd just get a higher framerate, and the game wouldn't otherwise be affected.
Click to expand...

The problem is that certain titles that have the game logic tied to the framerate will be "sped up" rather than receive the benefit of additional framerate/resolution.

This is nothing but Sony's own short-sightedness. If they knew they were going for shorter generations with hardware refreshes (and they did, they started on PS4P right after PS4 launched), they should have mandated that developers do not tie game logic to framerate, and to develop with arbitrary framerate/resolutions in mind a la PC development. Microsoft's first-party mid-gen XB1 titles are built with this in mind, using dynamic resolution scaling and allowing some titles to even benefit from the slight performance improvement of the XB1S.

Instead we have a back catalog of titles that will likely never take advantage of the ample additional power of the PS4P or beyond. It's just sloppy, especially when they claim they want to stave off PC purchases, yet have failed at addressing one of the massive appeals of PC gaming.
 
N

No_Style

Member
SunDimension24 said:
"2.13GHz CPU and 911MHz GPU in Pro mode, running at 1.6GHz and 800MHz respectively in base PS4 mode in order to lock back-compat with the standard model"

Well at least we got an answer for that now
Click to expand...

That's actually quite disappointing that they just won't allow older non-patched games to use more power :(

Maztorre said:
The problem is that certain titles that have the game logic tied to the framerate will be "sped up" rather than receive the benefit of additional framerate/resolution.
Click to expand...

Most games have capped framerates. We're just asking for titles that struggle to maintain a locked 30FPS to be given the power to reach that threshold. We're not expecting a Dark Souls situation where lifting framerate caps so 30FPS games now run at 60FPS and cause a whole slew of issues.

I'm still expecting small improvements but the clockspeed caps will limit the amount we could have seen.
 
E

EBE

Member
so an extra gig of "slow" ram and a "primitive" discard accelerator...
the age of sony is done.
 
C

Checkerboard Render

Banned
This was somewhat surprising:
But perhaps the biggest takeaway I had from the meeting with Mark Cerny was the insight into how Sony views the console generations. PS4 Pro and Project Scorpio have been seen as the beginning of the end of the jump to a new, more capable wave of hardware in favour of intermediate upgrades. What's clear is that Sony isn't buying into this. Cerny cites incompatibility problems, even moving between x86 CPU and AMD GPU architectures. I came away with the impression that PS5 will be a clean break, an actual generational leap as we know it. I do not feel the same about Project Scorpio, where all the indications are that Microsoft attempts to build its own Steam-like library around the Xbox brand, with games moving with you from one console to the next - and eventually, maybe even to the PC.
Click to expand...

I'd say it would be quite disappointing if PS5 doesn't have BW compatibility with the PS4/Pro. I wouldn't expect even on an iterative model lifecyle that BW compatibility would be perfect, you would have to cut off older models at some point - but the indication given here is that even with PS4 titles there's no guarantee of BC with the PS5, whenever it arrives.
 
S

SpokkX

Member
madmook said:
Damn, why can't they let old games use the extra horsepower automatically, like XB1 S. Must be some sort of technical hassle. I'm just thinking of how PCs work where if you have more power you'd just get a higher framerate, and the game wouldn't otherwise be affected.
Click to expand...

So much this. I want better framerate. Couldnt care less about 4k

Makes me actually consider skipping this upgrade
 
K

Kaako

Felium Defensor
Just finished reading the article; this was great and quite informative. Lots of meaty info in there, well worth the read. Can't wait till November 10th tbh!
 
Z

zedge

Member
No_Style said:
That's actually quite disappointing that they just won't allow older non-patched games to use more power :(



Most games have capped framerates. We're just asking for titles that struggle to maintain a locked 30FPS to be given the power to reach that threshold. We're not expecting a Dark Souls situation where lifting framerate caps so 30FPS games now run at 60FPS and cause a whole slew of issues.

I'm still expecting small improvements but the clockspeed caps will limit the amount we could have seen.
Click to expand...

Yea this is disappointing. I really hope Scorpio does not implement this kind of stuff. Playing bf4 etc at a steady 60 fps rather than the erratic performance now would be a great bonus.
 
G

Garrett Hawke

Member
An extra gig of RAM for system stuff is cool but downclocking for base PS4 games is very disappointing. Was hoping it would be an XB1S situation for non optimised titles.
 
S

Sesuadra

Unconfirmed Member
SpokkX said:
So much this. I want better framerate. Couldnt care less about 4k

Makes me actually consider skipping this upgrade
Click to expand...

Backfoggen said:
Bummer :(
Click to expand...

madmook said:
Damn, why can't they let old games use the extra horsepower automatically, like XB1 S. Must be some sort of technical hassle. I'm just thinking of how PCs work where if you have more power you'd just get a higher framerate, and the game wouldn't otherwise be affected.
Click to expand...
here is your answer
"Moving to a different CPU - even if it's possible to avoid impact to console cost and form factor - runs the very high risk of many existing titles not working properly," Cerny explains. "The origin of these problems is that code running on the new CPU runs code at very different timing from the old one, and that can expose bugs in the game that were never encountered before."
Click to expand...
 
P

platocplx

Member
"One of the features appearing for the first time is the handling of 16-bit variables - it's possible to perform two 16-bit operations at a time instead of one 32-bit operation," he says, confirming what we learned during our visit to VooFoo Studios to check out Mantis Burn Racing. "In other words, at full floats, we have 4.2 teraflops. With half-floats, it's now double that, which is to say, 8.4 teraflops in 16-bit computation. This has the potential to radically increase performance."
Click to expand...

This is a very interesting thing here.

Sesuadra said:
here is your answer
Click to expand...


and that makes a lot of sense. hardware backwards compatibility is not a cake walk. I dont think people understand how difficult it can be.

zedge said:
Yea this is disappointing. I really hope Scorpio does not implement this kind of crap. Playing bf4 etc at a steady 60 fps rather than the erratic performance now would be a great bonus.
Click to expand...

its not a 1:1 relationship a clock speed difference at the lowest level of code can break games. so unless you want to make developers at cost rework code. its never ever gonna happen.
 
N

No_Style

Member
PackAPunchedMick said:
From a competitive point of view this is welcomed.
Click to expand...

4K will give people competitive advantages already (increased clarity). And any multiplayer worth a damn will already perform near their respective framerate caps.

With future titles requiring Pro modes, this is only hurting back catalog titles.

Sesuadra said:
"Moving to a different CPU - even if it's possible to avoid impact to console cost and form factor - runs the very high risk of many existing titles not working properly," Cerny explains. "The origin of these problems is that code running on the new CPU runs code at very different timing from the old one, and that can expose bugs in the game that were never encountered before."
Click to expand...

Thanks for pointing out the reason. It's disappointing to hear and it makes some sense. Let's just hope they start learning how PC games deal with hardware changes.
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Marmelade said:
Why would a bump in frequency cause issues though?
Click to expand...

Lots of possible reasons. Changes memory latency behaviour, could change concurrency conditions etc.

Anyways, I'm really hopeful of good things for PS VR out of this. Fuller-fat visuals would be really nice on Pro in PSVR titles. Hopefully devs get on that.
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
gofreak said:
Lots of possible reasons. Changes memory latency behaviour, could change concurrency conditions etc.

Anyways, I'm really hopeful of good things for PS VR out of this. Fuller-fat visuals would be really nice on Pro in PSVR titles. Hopefully devs get on that.
Click to expand...

Hopefully Sony will make it relatively transparent to leverage the multires shading so it gets supported by most VR games. Wasn't that feature only a little boost though compared to something like the single pass stereo on pascal?
 
L

Logash

Member
I'm seriously hoping that all future games have PS4 pro support on 1080p screens. I don't want to go into Old PS4 mode while playing new games when PS4 Pro mode could easily improve frame rates and resolution
 
GameSeeker

GameSeeker

Member
PeterLegend said:
The secret sauce was an extra gig of slow ram

Damn... Lol
Click to expand...

EBE said:
so an extra gig of "slow" ram and a "primitive" discard accelerator...
the age of sony is done.
Click to expand...

Actually, there are more custom features ("secret sauce") in the PS4 Pro that are revealed if you read the entire article.

Eurogamer said:
Beyond that, we're moving into the juicy stuff - the custom hardware that Sony has introduced, elements of the 'secret sauce' that allow the Pro graphics core to punch so far above its weight. In creating 4K framebuffers, a lot of the technological underpinnings are actually based on advanced anti-aliasing work with the creation of new buffers that can be exploited in a number of ways.

"We'd really like to know where the object and triangle boundaries are when performing spatial anti-aliasing, but contrast, Z [depth] and normal are all imperfect solutions," Cerny says. "We'd also like to track the information from frame to frame because we're performing temporal anti-aliasing. It would be great to know the relationship between the previous frame and the current frame better. Our solution to this long-standing problem in computer graphics is the ID buffer. It's like a super-stencil. It's a separate buffer written by custom hardware that contains the object ID."

It's all hardware based, written at the same time as the Z buffer, with no pixel shader invocation required and it operates at the same resolution as the Z buffer. For the first time, objects and their coordinates in world-space can be tracked, even individual triangles can be identified. Modern GPUs don't have this access to the triangle count without a huge impact on performance.
Click to expand...

There is more detail if you read the rest of the article. It's clear that Sony did significant custom design work on the APU in PS4 Pro. They didn't just increase the CPU clock speed, double the CU count, change to slightly faster GDDR5 and call it a day.
 
I

icespide

Banned
is "base PS4 mode" something you have to trigger yourself? I thought it was just an automatic thing, why are people referring to it as some discreet mode that you have to "go into"?
 
M

Maztorre

Member
No_Style said:
Most games have capped framerates. We're just asking for titles that struggle to maintain a locked 30FPS to be given the power to reach that threshold. We're not expecting a Dark Souls situation where lifting framerate caps so 30FPS games now run at 60FPS and cause a whole slew of issues.

I'm still expecting small improvements but the clockspeed caps will limit the amount we could have seen.
Click to expand...

If you're asking for games to arbitrarily use enough extra horsepower to meet a targeted framerate then you're asking for the older games to be patched. Patches require work from the developers, and for hundreds of older titles that just isn't feasible.

My argument was that if Sony knew, as they did, that they would be supporting a mid-gen hardware refresh, then they should have mandated arbitrary resolution/framerate support from the start to account for new hardware. Developers would still have been able to set an upper framerate cap, but this would have allowed newer hardware to eke out additional performance without any need to go back and patch in support, just like any PC title with a capped framerate. Instead, we now have a library of titles that will only ever operate at their original clock rates on the PS4P and beyond.
 
P

platocplx

Member
Marmelade said:
Why would a bump in frequency cause issues though?
Click to expand...

many processes are run at a very precise time if im understanding correctly. So if the amount of time changes it can throw stuff for a loop like wait i was supposed to do that at X and not at Y etc. Thats how I'm interpreting it.
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
mrklaw said:
Hopefully Sony will make it relatively transparent to leverage the multires shading so it gets supported by most VR games. Wasn't that feature only a little boost though compared to something like the single pass stereo on pascal?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure, but I'm thinking of all the improvements together, and what they could do for VR games. The doubling of the shader units, the primitive culling unit (useful for stereo i guess) etc. etc.

It'll be interesting. The hardware potential is there...I'd like now to see what software will be doing in specific cases.
 
L

Logash

Member
icespide said:
is "base PS4 mode" something you have to trigger yourself? I thought it was just an automatic thing, why are people referring to it as some discreet mode that you have to "go into"?
Click to expand...

It is automatic but devs trigger it to. If you use an old PS4 game you will be using it in base PS4 mode. If you use a newer game or a game with a pro patch it will trigger Pro mode. It is to make sure all games run properly on the pro
 
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