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Animator · Sep 10, 2015

ElTorro said:
Please educate me on the differences between the Wacom Cintiq Companion 2 and the iPad Pro, that make the one thing a "real workgrade tablet", and the other one a toy for "hipsters". You seem to have more information about things like pen resolution, pen pressure levels, and software lineup than everybody else.

Is this a joke post?

Cintiq Companion 2:

-Can run all the windows apps, aka every productivity software pros use.

Ipad Pro:

-Can't run any of that but procreate is so cool guys, you don't need photoshop or zbrush or maya or anything really! no really!

Fret · Sep 10, 2015

TheLaughingStock said:
I don't use Adobe AE with non profit/government clients. Don't use it at home. I've personally never heard someone say they won't get an iPad or Android tab because it doesn't run After Effects. Is it suppose to be a big deal that people are waiting for?

AE was just one of many programs I could have used as an example

Anjelus_ · Sep 10, 2015

I early adopted iPads and happily owned one until about earlier this year.

Then I went back to fountain pens and good quality paper for everything, and I honestly haven't even touched my iPad in months. Find I'm a lot more content without having the constant distractions an iPad would give me (coughGafYouTubecough).

Feels a little weird considering my past behaviors, but I honestly have no interest in this at all. Might even give away my current iPad.

Still use phones, but I'm pretty sure I'm off the tablet wagon for good.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I do have a Macbook and iPhone so I technically don't need a tablet for anything.

Mobius 1 · Sep 10, 2015

Rengoku said:
Here's some first impressions of the pencil by someone who seems to know what they're talking about. He also compares it with other stylus tech, such as Wacom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak7pXLA2tm0

Gotta say, thats very promising.

That's really promising. I was afraid that the promotional video shown on the keynote was a little bit of smoke and mirrors, but it seems that the actual product is indeed great. No visible lag, no visible parallax. Remains to be seen if there will be any jitter, the pressure stepping, and of course software support.

PAULINK · Sep 10, 2015

I need one, for maximum jubeat.

Zeyphersan · Sep 10, 2015

What drawing apps should I take a look at on iPad? I think right now I have ArtStudio and Paper

AmyS · Sep 10, 2015

Rengoku said:
Here's some first impressions of the pencil by someone who seems to know what they're talking about. He also compares it with other stylus tech, such as Wacom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak7pXLA2tm0

Gotta say, thats very promising.

That's outstanding.

PdotMichael · Sep 10, 2015

Dead said:
Yeah I use the loop on the SP3 keyboard, but its not exactly elegant.

Seems like Apple didn't even bother trying to find a solution for this.

I expect that the various cases and hulls will have a solution for that problem anyway.

Doctor Ironic · Sep 10, 2015

ElTorro has it right. Ya'll who are going "lol $100 stylus!!! lol!!!" are ignoring that Apple isn't competing with the Surface, Apple is competing with Wacom.

Sure the Surface comes with a stylus but does it do pressure sensitivity, shading, etc.? I'm not in the business myself but I know several animation majors who are frothing at the mouth for this thing.

EatinOlives · Sep 10, 2015

Doctor Ironic said:
ElTorro has it right. Ya'll who are going "lol $100 stylus!!! lol!!!" are ignoring that Apple isn't competing with the Surface, Apple is competing with Wacom.

Sure the Surface comes with a stylus but does it do pressure sensitivity, shading, etc.? I'm not in the business myself but I know several animation majors who are frothing at the mouth for this thing.

MS actually collaborated with Wacom to have their stylus tech on Surface up until the Pro 3, and the Pro 3 still is comparable even if inferior on a technical level. (EDIT: My point is, Surfaces actually are Wacom-level tech. Hell, up until the last Pro they literally WERE Wacom tech.) Yes, all Surface pens have had pressure sensitivity.

I do wonder where your animation major friends were at for the past 3 years

Doctor Ironic · Sep 10, 2015

EatinOlives said:
MS actually collaborated with Wacom to have their stylus tech on Surface up until the Pro 3, and the Pro 3 still is comparable even if inferior on a technical level. Yes, all Surface pens have had pressure sensitivity.

I do wonder where your animation major friends were at for the past 3 years

Okay, but just pressure sensitivity does not a great stylus make. As ElTorro already pointed out:

ElTorro said:
It's not just a stylus. It has pressure and tilt sensors. Similar pens from Wacom (https://store.wacom.com/us/accessories/pens/) have similar prices (and don't have an internal battery, so arguably consist of less parts).

Wacom's been doing this shit for years but as soon as Apple comes out with a comparable competitor in the same price range, they're gouging?

Re: My friends: One of them actually works on Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood now. It's cute.

PdotMichael · Sep 10, 2015

Animator said:
Is this a joke post?

Cintiq Companion 2:

-Can run all the windows apps, aka every productivity software pros use.

Ipad Pro:

-Can't run any of that but procreate is so cool guys, you don't need photoshop or zbrush or maya or anything really! no really!

Well, I have a different work flow on a tablet than on a notebook or PC so Maya or AutoCAD on a tablet is kind of pointless without my 3D mouse and standard PC keyboard.
For me as professional in the construction industry I would rather need a fast operating viewer for the various technical drawing and a fast way of sketching/creating drawings for further using on my computer than a small Ultrabook with all the stuff I don't need outside of my office.

And I have more hope that the iPad and iOS are capable of providing tablet centric software than Windows 10 where barely software is designed to be used in tablet mode.

EatinOlives · Sep 10, 2015

Doctor Ironic said:
Okay, but just pressure sensitivity does not a great stylus make. As ElTorro already pointed out:

Wacom's been doing this shit for years but as soon as Apple comes out with a comparable competitor in the same price range, they're gouging?

Re: My friends: One of them actually works on Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood now. It's cute.

OK...but you asked "does it have pressure??" implying that it doesn't, and they've always had it so I'm not entirely sure what your point was. Surface pens DON'T have tilt sensors, though. That's something that's been sorely missing and hopefully implemented with the SP4's pen. That and they hopefully fix the dumb jank with Windows 10. That's something MS really needs to get the ball rolling on. FFS it's their own hardware...

RE your friend: I'm genuinely curious what this does for him that the Surfaces never did, considering several artists swear by the Surface.

subrock · Sep 10, 2015

I'm actually considering one of these and I haven't wanted an iPad since the iPad 2 came out. 4 GB of ram on an iOS device is mindblowing. The stylus looks tight as fuuuuuck too.

Mobius 1 · Sep 10, 2015

If this serves to put the pressure on Wacom and their monopoly-like prices, it's already a win. The Companions should not cost $2,000.

Zeyphersan · Sep 10, 2015

Guys, I might be wanting one

But it's so fucking big

But I think I want one

PdotMichael · Sep 10, 2015

Zeyphersan said:
Guys, I might be wanting one

But it's so fucking big

But I think I want one

Join the dark side. As bonus you would make many people angry on the Internet.

GavinGT · Sep 10, 2015

sarcastor said:
even though I hate touchwiz, with android you can properly run widgets and take advantage of a 12.2" screen.

The Ipad pro is really just a giant Ipad. Couldn't they have a squeezed in another column/row or something?

There is another column. Now how much would you pay?

freenudemacusers · Sep 10, 2015

PdotMichael said:
Join the dark side. As bonus you would make many people angry on the Internet.

make mine gold please!

Doctor Ironic · Sep 10, 2015

EatinOlives said:
OK...but you asked "does it have pressure??" implying that it doesn't, and they've always had it so I'm not entirely sure what your point was.

I didn't ask if it had pressure, I asked if it had "pressure sensitivity, shading, etc." How's the input lag on the Surface stylus? Battery life? Like I said, I'm no art major, but products with comparable feature sets are around the same price as the Apple Pencil, so people trying to act like $99 is "Apple fucking us again!" aren't actually paying attention to the demographic Apple is marketing to and are just getting caught up in the typical post-keynote zeitgeist.

Spinluck · Sep 10, 2015

sarcastor said:
even though I hate touchwiz, with android you can properly run widgets and take advantage of a 12.2" screen.

The Ipad pro is really just a giant Ipad. Couldn't they have a squeezed in another column/row or something?

iOS is so ugly on big screens.

I cannot believe they didn't go with OSX.

I'll always have my MBP

Spinluck · Sep 10, 2015

EatinOlives said:
MS actually collaborated with Wacom to have their stylus tech on Surface up until the Pro 3, and the Pro 3 still is comparable even if inferior on a technical level. (EDIT: My point is, Surfaces actually are Wacom-level tech. Hell, up until the last Pro they literally WERE Wacom tech.) Yes, all Surface pens have had pressure sensitivity.

I do wonder where your animation major friends were at for the past 3 years

People are going to pretend that the Surface was never used in creative fields before this iPad was made lol.

Doctor Ironic · Sep 10, 2015

Spinluck said:
People are going to pretend that the Surface was never used in creative fields before this iPad was made lol.

Good thing I said right at the beginning of this thread that Apple isn't competing with the Surface, it's competing with Wacom and Cintiq. Learn to read?

Schlep · Sep 10, 2015

Doctor Ironic said:
I didn't ask if it had pressure, I asked if it had "pressure sensitivity, shading, etc." How's the input lag on the Surface stylus? Battery life? Like I said, I'm no art major, but products with comparable feature sets are around the same price as the Apple Pencil, so people trying to act like $99 is "Apple fucking us again!" aren't actually paying attention to the demographic Apple is marketing to and are just getting caught up in the typical post-keynote zeitgeist.

The Surface Pen is comparable and $49. Apple is fucking you again.

Zeyphersan · Sep 10, 2015

PdotMichael said:
Join the dark side. As bonus you would make many people angry on the Internet.

I'm going to have to sincerely consider it

PdotMichael · Sep 10, 2015

Doctor Ironic said:
Good thing I said right at the beginning of this thread that Apple isn't competing with the Surface, it's competing with Wacom and Cintiq. Learn to read?

Is just a silly boogeyman anyway - see like he is only talking about the "people".

reKon · Sep 10, 2015

Should have had 64GB as base... c'mon now..

Just as the iPhone 6s should have definitely had the 32GB as base at least. What a joke...

Wonder how much they profit off iCloud..

ClayKavalier · Sep 10, 2015

Spinluck said:
iOS is so ugly on big screens.

I cannot believe they didn't go with OSX.

I'll always have my MBP

Yeah, the iPad Pro looks like a joke on its home screen.

I don't have any interest in this, but I think it's a sign of good things to come. I really like that it's fanless, the fan is constantly kicking on on my SP3 when I'm doing stuff like watching YouTube videos, and I bought a few games like Civ 5 but never play them because it gets really hot and loud. I'm guessing it'll be a lot lighter than the SP too.

I need to run data analysis software which is why I'd never get this, but in a few years if they have one with a better keyboard that runs OSX I could see it being my next... whatever you call the SP3.

Maybe it'd be too confusing but I think it'd be cool if Apple took a stab at what Microsoft attempted with Windows 8 and had an iPad Pro that runs OSX when needed but can also revert to iOS or at least a more iOS-esque interface when you just want to read, play a game, watch a movie or whatever.

Doctor Ironic said:
I didn't ask if it had pressure, I asked if it had "pressure sensitivity, shading, etc." How's the input lag on the Surface stylus? Battery life? Like I said, I'm no art major, but products with comparable feature sets are around the same price as the Apple Pencil, so people trying to act like $99 is "Apple fucking us again!" aren't actually paying attention to the demographic Apple is marketing to and are just getting caught up in the typical post-keynote zeitgeist.

I'm also not using it artistically, but I don't notice lag on my Surface when I use it to take notes or draw graphs. And I've owned it for about seven months and haven't replaced the AAA batteries that came with it.

EatinOlives · Sep 10, 2015

Doctor Ironic said:
I didn't ask if it had pressure, I asked if it had "pressure sensitivity, shading, etc." How's the input lag on the Surface stylus? Battery life? Like I said, I'm no art major, but products with comparable feature sets are around the same price as the Apple Pencil, so people trying to act like $99 is "Apple fucking us again!" aren't actually paying attention to the demographic Apple is marketing to and are just getting caught up in the typical post-keynote zeitgeist.

And my point is, Surface Pro pens have comparable technology. You keep repeating the iPad Pro "is not competing with the Surface" because it's competing with the Wacom. The Surface literally had Wacom pens in the SP1 and SP2, and the N-Trig, while inferior (for instance, 256 pressure points vs. 1024 from the SP2/1 Wacom pens), is still comparable. I just don't understand why you keep wanting to shove the SP out of the equation, as if no artist ever paid it any mind or its tech was nowhere near Wacom level. I know you're using that as a jumping off point to ultimately talk about the Apple Pencil's price, but the jumping off point in and of itself has a flawed premise. No, it's not the first-ever consumer-level pen intended for a tablet that competes with Wacom. So that alone does not justify its $99. I'm not saying the $99 price point is unjustified, but if there's a justification that ain't it.

Ydahs · Sep 10, 2015

iPad Pro. Smart move. Apple is marketing it as a tablet for more professional needs: presentations (office suite), demonstrations (medical) and design (drawing, CAD). They've distinguished its use case from the regular iPads and from their Macbooks.

The thing is, you don't need the stylus nor do you need the keyboard, but the options are there, which is much better than what we had before, where options were incredibly lacking. They've managed to keep the iPad fresh without cutting into their Macbook market.

... now just imagine if it ran OSX

PdotMichael · Sep 10, 2015

Ydahs said:
iPad Pro. Smart move. Apple is marketing it as a tablet for more professional needs: presentations (office suite), demonstrations (medical) and design (drawing, CAD). They've distinguished its use case from the regular iPads and from their Macbooks.

The thing is, you don't need the stylus nor do you need the keyboard, but the options are there, which is much better than what we had before, where options were incredibly lacking. They've managed to keep the iPad fresh without cutting into their Macbook market.

... now just imagine if it ran OSX

Then it would lack optimizated software which is the biggest problem if the Surface. And Apple would have the problem that either the Pro or Mac book Air would be rendered pointless.

toneroni · Sep 10, 2015

I just purchased a SP3 i5/256/8gb.
Haven't gotten rid of my iPad 4 yet but thinking I don't really need it since I have a 6+.
I'm surprised they didn't go OSX! Perhaps they don't wanna compete with the MacBook Air. Fabless is awesome and the pen looks intriguing. Kinda high price for just iOS though.
I'm sure they'll release more desktop level apps for it.

Renji_11 · Sep 10, 2015

golem said:
Far better functionally. Better battery life, better CPU utilization. Sleep settings actually work. Actual support for touch gestures in the browser (Yes, Microsoft shipped their brand new high tech browser without gestures! That the last one had!). On screen keyboard that actually pops up in all programs, not just Metro ones. Far fewer random ridiculous bugs (such as the Windows store completely disappearing on me, causing apps to stop launching. Also for some reason Windows 10 seems to forget my Outlook settings every 3 days.). Touch targets that are actually hittable and dont result in endless frustration (task view, WTF).

You need to be in tablet mode then the keyboard should pop up every time.

injurai · Sep 10, 2015

wait this doesn't run OSX?

Future · Sep 10, 2015

Fletch said:
W10 is far better as a tablet OS than W8.1 imo

Windows 10 is pretty buggy on surface though.

The price of this thing..... Damn. Stylus looks legit though

Kathian · Sep 10, 2015

Yeah tablet sales falling and based on this I think the likes of Windows 10 is starting to quite well. Not sure Apple can compete with a phone OS that looks to have gotten minimum changes
.

Zeyphersan · Sep 10, 2015

I'm actually pretty okay with this thing running iOS, but I cannot believe they didn't let the home screen have more apps on it. Right now my iPad Air 2 (9.7" screen) can hold 20 apps per home screen, the iPad Pro (12.9" screen) also holds 20 apps per home screen, and my iPhone 6 Plus (5.5" screen) holds 24 apps per home screen

Un-fucking-believable

numble · Sep 10, 2015

Zeyphersan said:
I'm actually pretty okay with this thing running iOS, but I cannot believe they didn't let the home screen have more apps on it. Right now my iPad Air 2 (9.7" screen) can hold 20 apps per home screen, the iPad Pro (12.9" screen) also holds 20 apps per home screen, and my iPhone 6 Plus (5.5" screen) holds 24 apps per home screen

Un-fucking-believable

Count the icons.

ElTorro · Sep 10, 2015

Animator said:
Is this a joke post?

Let me give the compliment back: are you joking, or just not reading what I wrote?

Animator said:
-Can't run any of that but procreate is so cool guys, you don't need photoshop or zbrush or maya or anything really! no really!

And you know that because you too already know the entire software lineup that the device will have, and hence can make condescending jokes about it. I wrote that, depending on what developers of such applications will release for the device, the iPad pro could easily rival the Cintiq. That's why I mentioned that the fact that Apple is marketing the thing with a "pro application" pitch might indicate that such applications will come. That's why I mentioned that Adobe's presence on stage might indicate that they could release Photoshop versions and/or "pro"-oriented companion software for the device. And that's why I asked for the device's RAM.

But I guess that some people just want to come into a thread about Apple products and leave a shit post without reading the actual discussion.

Zeyphersan · Sep 10, 2015

numble said:
Count the icons.

That's a pre-release rumor mockup, not official

This is official

Spinluck · Sep 10, 2015

Doctor Ironic said:
Good thing I said right at the beginning of this thread that Apple isn't competing with the Surface, it's competing with Wacom and Cintiq. Learn to read?

I will once you learn to speak.

#truthhurts

Napoleonthechimp · Sep 10, 2015

What's the point in the pro moniker is you're not going to bother putting a full OS on it?

Also, do people think adding a stylus pen makes them suddenly competitive with Wacom? The Cintiq range has something in the region of 2000 levels of pressure, and on top of that are full computers which can run photoshop, illustrator and god knows whatever else you want.

Even if Apple improves the sensitivity there is no way they're going to make it as open as the above products.

Necromanti · Sep 10, 2015

I didn't know the digital artist market was so lucrative.

ElTorro · Sep 10, 2015

injurai said:
wait this doesn't run OSX?

Well, technically speaking, iOS is OS X, but I get what you all mean. Many people are asking for it to run OS X, but I don't see how that would make sense. iOS is made for touch interfaces, while OS X is not. Yes, you could theoretically run all applications that exist for OS X, but OS X on a touch device would likely be a horrible experience. I'd rather have developers port their applications properly to a touch-based interface than to use shoe-horned touch controls with desktop software that isn't meant for that. A device that does not enforce that would not be able to become popular to a larger audience.

GavinGT · Sep 10, 2015

Zeyphersan said:
That's a pre-release rumor mockup, not official

This is official

So we're back to five columns? Fake pre-order cancelled.

Doctor Ironic · Sep 10, 2015

Schlep said:
The Surface Pen is comparable and $49. Apple is fucking you again.

The Surface Pen has less features. It's not comparable.

EatinOlives said:
And my point is, Surface Pro pens have comparable technology. You keep repeating the iPad Pro "is not competing with the Surface" because it's competing with the Wacom. The Surface literally had Wacom pens in the SP1 and SP2, and the N-Trig, while inferior (for instance, 256 pressure points vs. 1024 from the SP2/1 Wacom pens), is still comparable. I just don't understand why you keep wanting to shove the SP out of the equation, as if no artist ever paid it any mind or its tech was nowhere near Wacom level. I know you're using that as a jumping off point to ultimately talk about the Apple Pencil's price, but the jumping off point in and of itself has a flawed premise. No, it's not the first-ever consumer-level pen intended for a tablet that competes with Wacom. So that alone does not justify its $99. I'm not saying the $99 price point is unjustified, but if there's a justification that ain't it.

You literally just admitted that the Surface Pen doesn't have shading which means by default it's not comparable technology. I'm throwing Surface out the window because comparing it to the iPad Pro is apples and oranges at this point. I don't dislike Surface. I actually like it a lot! But that market isn't what Apple is going after, because Surface's market is tiny. They want the iPad Pro to be used for professional applications in the same way Cintiq and Wacom's are. You can use Surface for some of the things that Cintiq and Wacom do, but not all.

Spinluck said:
I will once you learn to speak.

#truthhurts

You should try writing a paragraph, or not assuming that I'm gonna get owned by a single misused hashtag.

Like what does this even mean? What a staggeringly bad post.

dallow_bg · Sep 10, 2015

Zeyphersan said:
That's a pre-release rumor mockup, not official

This is official

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/QCz0Vf4cDCwhKafLBAdiUv_LtAk=/1020x0/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4045698/verge-2016-09-09_12-23-31.0.jpg[/mg][/QUOTE]

Yeah, plus it has iPhone only apps showing like weather and calculator.

Spinluck · Sep 10, 2015

ElTorro said:
Well, technically speaking, iOS is OS X, but I get what you all mean. Many people are asking for it to run OS X, but I don't see how that would make sense. iOS is made for touch interfaces, while OS X is not. Yes, you could theoretically run all applications that exist for OS X, but OS X on a touch device would likely be a horrible experience. I'd rather have developers port their applications properly to a touch-based interface than to use shoe-horned touch controls with desktop software that isn't meant for that. A device that does not enforce that would not be able to become popular to a larger audience.

fair enough

I will hold out for future iterations.

the device will probably get some great software anyway.

Napoleonthechimp · Sep 10, 2015

Doctor Ironic said:
The Surface Pen has less features. It's not comparable.

You literally just admitted that the Surface Pen doesn't have shading which means by default it's not comparable technology. I'm throwing Surface out the window because comparing it to the iPad Pro is apples and oranges at this point. I don't dislike Surface. I actually like it a lot! But that market isn't what Apple is going after, because Surface's market is tiny. They want the iPad Pro to be used for professional applications in the same way Cintiq and Wacom's are. You can use Surface for some of the things that Cintiq and Wacom do, but not all.

I'm sorry but I'm not buying the iPad Pro as a cintiq replacement for illustrators. For a start you can't calibrate the display because it's restricted by iOS (if I can't verify that the colours are accurate to industry standards then it's a no-go) and on a related note you can't install niche software (and I'm not just talking about the stuff Adobe engineer for the iPad) that you need for your specific task.

I'm sure it'll be a nice tool to compliment a professional illustrator's workflow but I can not see it replacing anything.

Necromanti · Sep 10, 2015

Spinluck said:
fair enough

I will hold out for future iterations.

the device will probably get some great software anyway.

If this device is what finally gives software developers an incentive to develop competent and fully-featured iOS versions of their software (like what I'd want from MS Office), then that would be great.

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